Have you heard the S4/S5 rumour...

RAF_S7

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
Did they not state that as often as not they themselves are not necessarily kept informed though. However I do fully intent to reply to them that the knowledge of the S6 and s7 having a devil's engine has already been released to the media and send them that link...

I sent it to Audi UKs Twitter feed two weeks ago, after they replied to a similar question re dropping a low powered oil burner into the S7.......
 

NevMan

Well known member
600 rev band for max torque :tearsofjoy:

TX.

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Lol, that does sound like nothing, but then they aren’t slouch’s. Going to be very interesting g how they are received by motoring journalists. Very very odd not to offer the TFSI in Europe #baffled
 

SMI77

Australia
Euro 6 was introduced in 2014-15 for all cars, under the wltp and rde tests the engines are still Euro 6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards I think we should, with respect, keep to what facts we know and not place in unknowns that Audi have been unable to get their petrol engines through the new tests. Which is currently wltp and rde for the EU...
So the answer to the closed question"...are Euro emissions & fuel consumption more stringent than WLTP?', is?
There does not appear to be similar action with other Rest of World manufacturers, including a model they want to continue to sell in EU.

"...not place in unknowns that Audi have been unable to get their petrol engines through the new tests...". Was a firm belief. One may recall S4 production was interrupted early '18 due to test problems. To spend enormous Euros on a totally new diesel and timely, for cashflow, introduce it specifically throughout the "S" range, factoring in the time required to have all models in place to satisfy the fleet average rule, Audi must know what it has to do, and do it now. That is not rocket science, but plain commonsense. Again disclaimer - opinion only.
 

SMI77

Australia

cuke2u

Registered User
So the answer to the closed question"...are Euro emissions & fuel consumption more stringent than WLTP?', is?
There does not appear to be similar action with other Rest of World manufacturers, including a model they want to continue to sell in EU.

"...not place in unknowns that Audi have been unable to get their petrol engines through the new tests...". Was a firm belief. One may recall S4 production was interrupted early '18 due to test problems. To spend enormous Euros on a totally new diesel and timely, for cashflow, introduce it specifically throughout the "S" range, factoring in the time required to have all models in place to satisfy the fleet average rule, Audi must know what it has to do, and do it now. That is not rocket science, but plain commonsense. Again disclaimer - opinion only.
The tests are different in the way they are conducted, that's the difference, being a Euro 6 engine isn't really what it's about. However in essence it is all replaced by the 'Real Driving Tests' which are supposed to simulate NOX and particulates emissions on the road, not on a test bed as before, which is in Sept 2019.
From what I understand it was diesel engines that were having issues with passing the RDE tests not petrol engines, because they produce more NOX as they combust at a higher temperature. On the other hand petrol engines tend to produce slightly more Co2 than diesels under certain conditions but are now fitted with particulate filters to reduce the particulates.

https://www.caremissionstestingfacts.eu/rde-real-driving-emissions-test/
https://clean-carbonenergy.com/nox-emissions.html
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/is-diesel-actually-better-for-the-environment/
https://www.ft.com/content/f4ec55ec-352a-11e9-bb0c-42459962a812

Any new vehicle manufactured in the EU, irrespective of where it delivered, has to met the new standards, which is higher than in the USA anyway, to gain type approval. However, according to some research I have seen, America themselves pulled out of the hamonized tests in 2011..
 
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Dippy

Registered User
Audi UK clearly don’t have a clue....
They don't need to know because they won't be selling any of these cars. I get the impression that UK buyers are rightly becoming anti-diesel because of the fact that although these engines produce 5-10% less carbon gasses than the equivalent sized petrol engines, they produce many multiple times the amount of other pollutants which are killing people now. Add to that the fact that, as this forum suggests, S-car buyers prefer petrol, then the UK market for diesel S-cars (except SQ) must be quite small. Then take the fact that it is only the UK that will get the RHD version of these cars (I believe all other RHD markets will have the petrol engines?), then I can't believe that they will build any speculatively. So those few people who might want to buy a diesel S-car in the UK will likely find that it also has to be built to order with a long lead time. So they will probably change their minds and buy a BMW or Merc instead.

Just my 2 particle of noxious stuff from a diesel exhaust pipe...

600 rev band for max torque :tearsofjoy:
I tried to see what the redline is for this engine but couldn't. A lot of the photos on Audi.de seem to not necessarily match the exact car being referenced. I did find something for the new S6 which clearly showed a 4500 redline. But that seems low. Previous 3.0 TDIs rev to 5K don't they?
 

Daggerit

Registered User
They don't need to know because they won't be selling any of these cars. I get the impression that UK buyers are rightly becoming anti-diesel because of the fact that although these engines produce 5-10% less carbon gasses than the equivalent sized petrol engines, they produce many multiple times the amount of other pollutants which are killing people now. Add to that the fact that, as this forum suggests, S-car buyers prefer petrol, then the UK market for diesel S-cars (except SQ) must be quite small. Then take the fact that it is only the UK that will get the RHD version of these cars (I believe all other RHD markets will have the petrol engines?), then I can't believe that they will build any speculatively. So those few people who might want to buy a diesel S-car in the UK will likely find that it also has to be built to order with a long lead time. So they will probably change their minds and buy a BMW or Merc instead.

Just my 2 particle of noxious stuff from a diesel exhaust pipe...


I tried to see what the redline is for this engine but couldn't. A lot of the photos on Audi.de seem to not necessarily match the exact car being referenced. I did find something for the new S6 which clearly showed a 4500 redline. But that seems low. Previous 3.0 TDIs rev to 5K don't they?

Pretty sure the redline on my B8.5 was 4.5k but it’s been a few years since I was in it...


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Zippytoo

Registered User
If this is accurate (if), it suggests that there may be some news on the S4 on Thursday albeit it appears to relate to Germany and suggests that the S4 might only be ordered as a 'preconfigured' car until the FL arrives! Guess we'll see.
Google translation of post
"According to the statement of my friend, the model year 2019, although from 25.04. ordered, but you can then order only preconfigured cars. This is probably because of the upcoming FL and only after the FL, the S4 will be freely configurable again."
https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/audi-s4-t5191800.html?page=191 (post by Thoshy 17th April at 14:35)
 

cuke2u

Registered User
Preconfigured may well be a translation for stock cars, not the facelift...
 

alFR

Registered User
Preconfigured may well be a translation for stock cars, not the facelift...
That was my reading (admittedly with my pretty poor German) of the Audi.de site as well - you can still buy S4s there but only ones that are dealer stock.
 
If they made the S5 diesel the S4 will be diesel. Still not clear when the facelift A4 is due - lots of conflicting info
 

RAF_S7

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter

cuke2u

Registered User
Well if you can get one, what with the suggestion about only 'in stock' cars only available, then the proposed facelift, who'd want this...
 

NevMan

Well known member
Well if you can get one, what with the suggestion about only 'in stock' cars only available, then the proposed facelift, who'd want this...

A very good point, who knows
 

NevMan

Well known member

keenu

Registered User
Do we think it's going to flop in the UK?

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To a degree yes but if it goes that way they will offer a batch of cheapish leases to keep them moving. Possibly might appeal more as a company car so maybe private purchases dip but company car sales increase.
A few people on a different forum who have S5s and are trying to extend the lease are seeing their renewal price rocket up - pretty clear Audi want these petrol ones back to flog!
 

1Ten

Registered User
It is unlikely to be attractive company car drivers. I have a S4 as a company car and this coming year the tax is very slightly less than than the most powerful A4 Diesel.
 

cuke2u

Registered User
Do we think it's going to flop in the UK?

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I am not sure how much Audi is bothered about the UK market these days, especially for the S4 the sales are probably minuscule and probably non profit making...
 

SMI77

Australia
When reading the Audi-Media releases on the S5 TDI and the SQ5 TDI I noticed what appeared to be an anomaly:

The release on the S5 TDI states :The large turbocharger generates up to 3.4 bar of absolute charging pressure.
The release on the SQ5 TDI states:The large exhaust gas turbocharger with variable turbine geometry (VTG) produces a relative boost pressure of up to 2.4 bar.

Stupidly, I sought clarification from Audi (might as well of banged my head against a brick wall). Their response was to simply restate the sections of the release. Then researched the 'net' to find:
Absolute (intake) Pressure = Relative (boost) Pressure + 1.0 bar atmo. So 3.4 = 2.4 + 1.0
https://x-engineer.org/automotive-e...s/ice-components-systems/turbocharging-works/

Of course, everybody knows that, not!!
 

cuke2u

Registered User
No surprises really, Audi seem to be adept at tripping themselves up and making condictory statements...
 

Dippy

Registered User
Do we think it's going to flop in the UK?
I still think the RHD factor is relevant. All the other RHD markets will have the petrol engine. So if Audi then decides not to offer customer configuration, will they risk making UK spec cars at all?

Absolute (intake) Pressure = Relative (boost) Pressure + 1.0 bar atmo. So 3.4 = 2.4 + 1.0
That's at sea level only - which is probably the best place for a diesel S5 :)
I depends how the ECU will measure manifold pressure, the peak may be capped at 3.4 absolute or it may be 2.4 above ambient. If the latter the folks in the Netherlands might be interested?
 

Thundercliffe81

Registered User
To a degree yes but if it goes that way they will offer a batch of cheapish leases to keep them moving. Possibly might appeal more as a company car so maybe private purchases dip but company car sales increase.
A few people on a different forum who have S5s and are trying to extend the lease are seeing their renewal price rocket up - pretty clear Audi want these petrol ones back to flog!
That's naughty that. Very.

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SMI77

Australia
That's at sea level only - which is probably the best place for a diesel S5 :)
I depends how the ECU will measure manifold pressure, the peak may be capped at 3.4 absolute or it may be 2.4 above ambient. If the latter the folks in the Netherlands might be interested?
Noted & thanks. Take it the reference to Netherlands is due to lack of altitude.

Technically challenged question - if the pressure measured is that in a closed vessel (never thought I would use that term again, ever, since I failed chemistry, very impressed!!), hence not affected by altitude, should that pressure not remain constant, irrespective of where in the world one is, eg. floor of Loch Lomond or top of Mt Everest?
Edit:
Does it have to do with the higher the altitude the denser the air. Whilst the manifold is a closed vessel, it in fact draws its pressurised air from the turbo, which in turn draws in the lovely denser air to pressurise for the manifold???
 
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WarwickBoy

Registered User
A few people on a different forum who have S5s and are trying to extend the lease are seeing their renewal price rocket up - pretty clear Audi want these petrol ones back to flog!

That's naughty that. Very.

I thought with PCP that if you want to keep the car after the lease period the price you pay to do that is agreed up front (so can’t be hiked)?
 

NevMan

Well known member
A few people on a different forum who have S5s and are trying to extend the lease are seeing their renewal price rocket up - pretty clear Audi want these petrol ones back to flog!



I thought with PCP that if you want to keep the car after the lease period the price you pay to do that is agreed up front (so can’t be hiked)?

PCP is not lease, two different things.
PCP there is optional final payment that you either pay or refinance and keep the car, p/x and after finance settled use difference (if there is any) in next car, or hand back car (assuming no equity).

Lease is a fixed term rental, that you hand back car at end of term and pay any damages or excess mileage. There are options to extend lease term but up to leasing company what those values are.
 

Dippy

Registered User
Noted & thanks. Take it the reference to Netherlands is due to lack of altitude.
About a third of the Netherlands is below sea level so theoretically some forced induction engines will be more powerful there (but I'm splitting hairs).

Technically challenged question - if the pressure measured is that in a closed vessel (never thought I would use that term again, ever, since I failed chemistry, very impressed!!), hence not affected by altitude, should that pressure not remain constant, irrespective of where in the world one is, eg. floor of Loch Lomond or top of Mt Everest?
Correct - and that's rather a vital property of airplanes and submarines :)

Does it have to do with the higher the altitude the denser the air. Whilst the manifold is a closed vessel, it in fact draws its pressurised air from the turbo, which in turn draws in the lovely denser air to pressurise for the manifold???
The opposite. The reason why there is pressure at sea level is the mass of air above. Go up a mountain so that a lot of that air is now below, there is less mass of air above and hence lower pressure. As a gas, the density of air is proportional to its pressure.

The point about ambient air pressure and forced induction is simply that the effect of the compressor used (turbocharger or supercharger) is fairly constant. So for a given engine at two greatly different altitudes, the boost will theoretically be less at the higher altitude because the pressure of the air at the intake is lower. In reality it depends on the engine control. Most factory engines are controlled (via bypass valves) to have a closed loop boost limit which is significantly less than what the compressor is capable of (which is why people like me love forced induction because it is then relatively easy to tune for more power). This means that for most production turbo and supercharged cars there is no loss of power at altitude (within limits of course). Whereas in my car for example, the peak power is now limited by the supercharger itself, so I'd expect to notice the power loss at altitude.

I did take my previous car (tuned B5 S4) to the Alps, but there was too much traffic and it was too icy for me to test that theory!
 

Thundercliffe81

Registered User
A few people on a different forum who have S5s and are trying to extend the lease are seeing their renewal price rocket up - pretty clear Audi want these petrol ones back to flog!



I thought with PCP that if you want to keep the car after the lease period the price you pay to do that is agreed up front (so can’t be hiked)?
I dunno. The finance company own it at the end of the day don't they? If you want to extend, I'm sure you have to renegotiate. They could just offer a wild price and put people off.

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cuke2u

Registered User
It's kind of obvious that if you wish to extend the pcp then any previous agreement is null and void because the only asset, the car, will be different as it is older..
 

NevMan

Well known member
It's kind of obvious that if you wish to extend the pcp then any previous agreement is null and void because the only asset, the car, will be different as it is older..

He was talking about extending leases. PCP would be a re-finance for GFV obv.
 

Zippytoo

Registered User
Latest translation from German forum, motor-talk:
"According to my friendly, the S4 is now from 30.4. be ordered - in any case preconfigured ... .. :-( :-(
What is going on ...?!
You are indeed right. I got the information now too. Orderable from 30.4. Preconfigured. Delivery from the end of May. I still do not understand that.
But much more exciting - and then I was probably right :). Orderability of the "big" facelift - from Q2 2019 - delivery of the original equipment of the "new" S4 then from September, delivery of the self-configured from October.
The S4 Limo will start at 62,600, the Avant at 64,450, -. Base prices, where the preconfigured lie, I do not know.
The S4 will NOT appear in the configurator in MY 2019"
https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/audi-s4-t5191800.html?page=195
 

Zippytoo

Registered User
So, here we go at last: formal confirmation of the S4 TDI:
https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/audi-s4-sedan-tdi-11549
https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/audi-s4-avant-tdi-11550

And it looks like it's put on a portly 150kg and lost 60l in boot space, presumably to accommodate aspects of the new EPC?! But then there's also DPF, AdBlue tank, a little extra weight for the engine... but 150kg? Really?
I'm still in for my lease. The improved MPG will save me a little more money. But don't get me wrong, if I was a buyer I'd have walked by now and, if I hadn't I would have now. I still think it will be quick, at least on the move, just not quite sure how it will go round corners!
Ho hum, at this rate I'll be the only person who will have one!
 
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