FWD Track s3 ,or haldex

Prawn said:
I think I, and a handful of others on the forum, would have to disagree quite sternly on that point.

250bhp and fwd isn't a handful unless it's a sadly setup car. Personally, I find a 250bhp a3 feels a bit slow, that's just my opinion though, and no disrespect to anyone who has that and is happy.

300bhp and fwd is also not a problem in the slightest. It's only when climbing to 350bhp+ that traction becomes a concern at all in a well setup car.

I run 380bhp on track in my wrong wheel drive A3, and I've not once on track wished for 4wd.

It's very much horses for courses.

I think fwd is ultimately better for track work than 4wd, given all other things equal and remaining within the realms of reality power wise.

That said, for the cost vs effort exercise for Daz, I'd still be leaving it 4wd.
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Sorry if you guys disagree with my opinion.
I have read your thread and admire the track car that you are creating.

My experience purely comes from driving many different vehicles with 200bhp upwards that have really struggled to get traction down.

The focus RS is thought of as a 'good' handling car. I found it an understeering mare with too much power and torque for its own good. I also found a track ready civic pushing about 250bhp very twitchy and not a confident drive at all.

Maybe I'm just too picky and used to 4wd traction.
Maybe I've just not driven fwd car that is correctly set up. Who knows
 
That's fair enough Kane, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course :)

Is like to hope that the issues you've experienced have been down to setup.

It makes me laugh how things like the Focus RS and Astra VXR are said to be so violently aggressive and a handful to drive. I don't for one minute disbelieve the critics, but I don't understand why a factory car like the vxr with a pathetic 240lbfft can be so poorly setup that it torque steers badly? That's surely down to a bad chassis? I certainly hope so!
 
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jojo said:
My opinion is, if you started with an S3, it should stay 4wd, if you want to go the 2wd route, buy an A3 and do what Prawn has to his. Having been in Prawns track A3, there's no traction issues with his setup. But it comes down to a lot of things at the end of the day, like how far you want to go with the project?
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Says the man who sold me a fwd S3 :p
 
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superkarl said:
a fwd S3 is pretty cool.
Im sure prawn wouldnt shy away from an S3 rear end if it was relatively cheap and easy.

with rear diff/haldex and prop removed i bet it could be as light as an A3. Not sure what the rear subframes weigh i've never had mine off, yet.
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I even have a rear subframe for him to do it with :)
 
snowy said:
aka DIY Seat Leon Supacopa

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I don't think this is DIY, in Europe they did a haldex leon from factory...
 
VAG-Slag said:
I don't think this is DIY, in Europe they did a haldex leon from factory...
Click to expand...

I'm sorry there, my grammar was terrible & lazy

Yep the supacopa started life as a Leon4

Similar to how the Octavia Kit cars started life with a 4x4 chassis
 
Well my 2p worth. Mines an a3 Quattro, not an S3 a little lighter maybe?! I guess the specs the same as in running gear. I have the blue haldex controller that's on all the time, no traction issues at all and the rear really does push through corners with no on or off feeling.

So more 4wd than fwd with assistance. That how the haldex is as standard.

You really need the power you justify the extra weight and gains in traction. As we know BT set ups means big torque which will spin wheels and slow you down. So unless you have high 300's ( bills Lupo) I'd say fwd. But you can easily try fwd in an s3 by pulling the fuse.
 
yeh prawny suggested this which is a good idea.
however you will still be carryi gthe extra weight and id have no lsd.
two major gains for the fwd point of view.
im running 330 bhp at th moment but id love to know i can go more.
im still thinking of stayin 4wd.....
for now :)
 
You can drop the prop and the haldex and shafts. Leave the outer cv in the hold the axles together. Shouldn't take long. Gearbox can stay with transfer in. Yeh stay 4wd, blow another 5k on her and get 500 hp
 
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is there actually any proof that the powertrack insert will cause premature breakages, not just speculation? ive done alot of reading on various forums and it all seems to be guess work?
on the matter of haldex engaging mid corner, i havent experienced this at all in my apy, does the tc system tie in on the later models? my car is very neutral once at the limit, never suddenly lurches??

like others have said weight will effect corner speed, with equal tyres suspension setup and power to weight and a lighter car will hold a higher corner speed but if you cant get the power down its horses for courses...
no doubt prawns a3 vs a 380bhp s3, going on what prawn has said he will win hands down, if we are talking 500hp in prawns a3 and a similar spec s3 then who do we think, prawn would still have corner speed but would be fighting wheelspin everywhere.

then look at the time attack cars, you dont get people swapping their evos and sti's to fwd, just add more power and enjoy some 4wd power slides instead of fighting traction everywhere... your not going to be racing after all are ya? its about having fun, put an s3 (of any level of equal power to weight) next to an a3 and i know which i would rather be driving... do you prefer driving fwd cars or 4wd cars?

what you need to do is shave another 140kg by any means possible then end this argument, carbon driveshafts, plastic windows, cut out crash protection, fibre glass panels, have a ****, shave and starve yourself what ever it takes lol.... either that or 'prawn', you need to add ballast in the right places and drop your boost so you have the same power to weight as daz then put timed laps on both cars!-)
/\ that would end this argument for good lol.
 
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as ive said before me vs prawn is defo not in any way a fair comparison lol
 
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ok vs a similar spec a3 with the same power to weight ratio, my mate had a 208 bhp with 243 lb/ft aum a3 when my s3 was 210 bhp and 210lb/ft with stage 2 bolt ons(both cars proven on the same rr) and regardless of what anyone on here goes on about they were exactly the same speed at that spec, once rolling absolutely nothing on the straight... maybe due to the s3 being geared better i dunno...

in the twistys i left him for dead, he was out of sight on a b road after a dozen corners at 60ish mph, he is not shy either, i can tell you we are both of equal driving capabilitys, choose to believe what you want. either way i would say regardless of weight or power an s3 is easier to drive fast than an a3 both with stock suspension. not saying an a3 cant be as fast but if it feels dangerous its hardly gonna inspire confidence is it.
 
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Im well up for this race idea :racer:

I'll turn the boost down and stick to road tyres, and take a 100kg passenger and a full tank of fuel to even it up.

Sound fair?

Bring it on :laugh:
 
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This thread is absolutely hilarious, it's nice to see that ASN hasn't changed one bit.

"Rarrrr, I don't have any driving talent or tangible track day experience but I can drive faster than my mates A3 on the road so Haldex is the best thing everrrrrr."

"Rarrrr, I've got a lighter car than you so I'm faster. Haldex is for gaaaaaays."

And so the continual argument of who's car is faster with absolutely no evidence, relative experience or reason continues.

Apart from that time Prawn showed up at a sprint day and absolutely rinsed Daz, Jojo and I who all had really high spec'd S3's.

And that time Prawn turned up at a track day and passed me like I was stood still in my S3.

And that time I turned up at ADI and was faster than all the S3's in my A3.

Or every other time that an A3 has been faster than an S3 on track. Which forgive me if I'm wrong, is every time. And wasn't that the point of this thread? Track days?

Yawn.

Don't do it Daz, waste of time, effort and money. You've got lots of driving tuition and experience to gain before you can start making massive changes like that and expecting to magically become faster. No disrespect...
 
no i think you are right jardo
ive decided ill leave it for now and see how it fairs.
the problem is i have been in nicks car.
and unless you have people have no idea what its capable of.
nicks car easily has more grip, feel safer at speed etc etc (as you know)
hence the question.

i am a terrible passanger (really hate going fast as passanger)
except in nicks a3. it is like nothing else ive been in and i want mine to feel that way lol
 
I'm very much in the FWD is better than haldex camp for MY own personal needs, but as I said earlier, and as you've decided, I think sticking 4wd with a haldex controller is the best option for you in your current position Daz.

You'll be able to enjoy more of your power, more of the time, in more varying conditions. I think it suits well for you. Jardos S3 was lovely to thrash down a decent country road in the pouring rain. Just effortless to go really fairly fast, even if it is ~5% slower at the very limit.

Looking forward to a drive at Curby in a few weeks time :)
 
yeh i think you are right.
maybe 4wd will be better for now to learn in.
i also think driving fwd fast well probably takes more driving ability than it does 4wd?
who knows.
yeh looking forward to your comments at curby
it will be nearly 100bhp up
semi slick tyres
and the alignments not all over the place!!
defo hoping you notice a gain lol
 
just hoping i get to do a timed lap
got a mate coming as passanger and you want a go
only got 7 laps last time lol
 
Don't be silly dude. You come first. Your mate can do one :laugh:

Must try harder, I got at least 16 runs :racer:
 
Lol jardo, your so dramatic, thought this thread would drag you outta the woodwork lol...
Cant compare prawns like everyone said, or jardos for that matter, need a bone stock healthy s3 and a3 then accounting for weight and transmission lose get em going the same speed on the same tyres add in some haldex control then give em both to one decent driver, pref nick.
 
How can you even measure power at the wheels with a haldex car to compare it? :audibash:

If you could get the haldex to be smarter it would be good with inputs from throttle % and steering angle.

Set it up like a WEC car to assist pulling you out of corners and assist braking and its win win
 
Right!!!

after doing bedford yesterday with plenty of tuition how to drive correctly (not that ive mastered it at all)!!!
but simply seeing how to drive and how im doing so much so wrong i am of the 100% honest opinion

and im my opinion now im not wrong

the 4wd system in these cars does absolutely NOTHING to aid grip or
exit speed !!!!

its purely a disadvantage and NOTHING else.

two ards instructors gave me opinions on the car
both said it needs to be treated as fwd as the 4wd was doing squat for it.

they said fwd or rwd for real circuit racing is the way to go and i couldnt agree more

it understeers like fwd yet im carrying to extra 150kg

killing straight line speed
corner speeds
braking

you can all have your opinions ob this but 2 very good
very qualified drivers said the exact same thing and it matched what i was feeling also.

so im not sure what to do at this point
split it and buy something else or make it fwd but it isnt staying as it is
it was a pig to drive
 
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My advise would be to try to get a drive of a true 4x4 track/rally car - see if you notice the difference - see if you like the difference

Its a £2500 - £3000 price to make a haldex car a true 4x4

That budget alone could buy you a turbo converted MX5 track car, which would be a good little introduction to RWD
 
hi snowy
i have curby tomoz
im going to do that and enjoy it

but every track day i go to is full of mx5
clio cups
m3s
and porsche gt3's
so yeh im defo toyin with a change

haldex is a terrible track tool

usless

its fine on road
i love my car on the road!!
but as a properly driven track car

no good
:(
 
m3 and clio 200 are ticking boxes for me but i dont know what to do yet
 
Interesting opinion :) glad you've got some clarity on it though!

I hope you're still coming to Curby tomorrow?
 
defo
and i will try hard and enjoy it mate
but s3 track cars are terrible!
brilliant b road car but track tarmac it has no gains only losses.
everyone keep their eye out for a lot of performance s3 parts with less than 1k on them
 
whats the facts in this kwistof?

where is this info taken from

nice list but a lot of it seems backwards lol
 
daz-20vt said:
whats the facts in this kwistof?

where is this info taken from

nice list but a lot of it seems backwards lol
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The understand that Horst von Saurma set the time back in 1999 from what I can find for a German magazine SportAuto.

Plus the top 10 times for on the site I pretty much know are legit as you can view there the laps on YT.

How about looking into one of those new haldex controllers that Paul has recently had fitted?
Would help with your braking and also push you along from the rear rather than pulling you along with the front wheels if you can't Jel with the current haldex
 
Get some track time and then go from there
 
audi upgrades
I reckon a hpa controller might change your mind as it properly utilises the 4wd for performance.

You have to remember that this 1st gen haldex was developed with efficiency and grip in mind on daily drivers, not so much for performance. Haldex controller totally changes that purpose
 
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I was just about to say that. Given what Tuffty has said about it (and keep in mind this is feedback from road use), I can imagine it would make a huge difference on the track.
 
@RRP

£1K per axle for an LSD

£500ish for a HPA touchmotion

That doesn't include fitting either
 
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