FWD Track s3 ,or haldex

daz-20vt

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hi guys
after peoples opinions on this subject i cant get out of my head!

so my s3 is fully stripped for track and im after it being as good on track as it possibly can be!!

so whats peoples thoughts on haldex vs FWD on track

id love some input from people on this and lets be fair theres nothing better than a controversial thread to kick the weekend off!!!
thanks all!!!
 
Oooooooooooooooooooh,

You've been threatening to post this for a while :racer:

I'll let a few people reply before giving my unbias opinion :laugh:
 
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my feelings on track equipment is predictability is very important,
take tyres, brand X may have better ultimate grip, but if they give no warning of when they are going to let go, then brand Y with less ultimate grip but lets you know what going on will be faster

from what I have read the haldex seems to be a bit unpredictable, if it decides to join the game 1/2 way round a corner it will not be very confidence inspiring,
but I don't know how bad they are as I don't have haldex.
 
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comments like yours are exactly why im asking this!!
ive read this kind of thing before but its always someone saying "ive read haldex"
never someone having owned or tracked an s3 themselves
i want a good neutral set up!!!
and weight as low as poss!!
but if theres fun to be had with the haldex im all ears????
 
I own an A3, so no haldex experience, but the way I see it, haldex adds a lot of weight, which lowers your power to weight ratio. Speaking of power, I have read (not sure if true) that you lose roughly 5-10% power between engine and wheels through the haldex.
Add to this the fact that braking and cornering will be negatively affected by the extra weight.

I think for equal power-to-weight ratios, an A3 will be faster around a track. Off the line, the S3 will be quicker. In a continued straight line, I'd reckon they'd be very close.

Ofcourse, this would also assume equal braking and suspension mods.

Anyway, you've been stripping this S3 to see how a truly track-dedicated S3 would fare, compared to an A3, notably Prawn's. I can't wait to see the results :)
 
Get a haldex controller and love the way it pushed you through corners... Prawn... get your ar*e over here and have a go in mine..

<tuffty/>
 
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me vs prawn wouldnt be an entirely fair comparison hahaha

a guy called gurds planted this seed in my head

and ever since ive been taking note of things

for example the new LCR is quicker than the new golf r with -20bhp due to the weight difference.

prawns car with a cage is still 140kg less than mine and mines pretty bare
thats gotta make a big difference under every part of a circuit like you say!!!
just be nice if someone had really tracked an s3

also as soon as prawn gets his back side to a track day he will be having a go so can let me know
but i wanna start looking into parts etc incase something pops up
 
comments like yours are exactly why im asking this!!
ive read this kind of thing before but its always someone saying "ive read haldex"
never someone having owned or tracked an s3 themselves
i want a good neutral set up!!!
and weight as low as poss!!
but if theres fun to be had with the haldex im all ears????
maybe you retitle your thread "haldex drivers only" so the vast majority of non haldex posters don't have to waste their time posting their experiences
 
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Tufty's new toy (HPA Haldex controller) would take the guesswork out of what would happen mid-corner. Would be something i'd consider as its got to be cheaper than a trip along the armco.

The comparative simplicity and lower weight of FWD would make it my choice if i were putting together a track car.
 
Guess it depends if you are 'racing' or having fun mate... if you are looking for the ultimate then you could argue a stripped FWD car with a cage and aero etc is what you are looking for but if you are looking for fun then I doubt there is going to be much in it... all the extra weight is at the back, with a haldex controller then it has the potential to a very good track car... of course my opinion is slightly biased and should also be slightly ignored considering I have no actual personal track related experience... my fix for a heavier car was a bigger turbo and more boost :)

If 'racing' then weight matters... this much I have seen for myself

<tuffty/>
 
ohhhhh tuffty just threw a curve ball!!
hmmmm
id love a definative answer :(
 
for example the new LCR is quicker than the new golf r with -20bhp due to the weight difference.

Or is because the LCR has haldex's new active front diff, vs haldex's VAG nobbled central diff + 2x open diffs ;)

The LCR has more traction in tight cornering

Same goes for diff'd A3 vs stock diff'd S3
 
well my car weighed in at 1285kg with over 3/4 of a tank
which im kinda happy with
but it isnt 1140 like prawns lol
 
weight is only one ingredient

If that extra 145kg enables you to go through corners twice as fast, then its weight well used

If it doesn't, then yep its a waste
 
I have not updated my thread yet with the (somewhat brief) experiences of my HPA controller so far but I can say the way the car exits the apex of a corner be it a roundabout or whatever (lets remember I am road warrior not a trackist) is massively different... the car feels so much more planted and has less of a tendency to kick the ar*e end out and spin up the wheels...

<tuffty/>
 
For what it's worth, I see the FWD S3 conversion as a pretty expensive and time consuming project.

You'll need to get a new box, and fit an LSD in it, which is going to cost in the region of £1000-1200. then there's fitting on top of that. Then you'll need to remove the prop, rear diff, rear shafts etc to get your weight saving. With the labour charge you'd be looking at £1500-1700 all in I'd bet.

What you'll end up with is a car that's more lively, and ultimately faster on the limit if driven at that limit. It won't be as good on the road though, as you'll always be battling wheelspin on road tyres, and again, on road tyres, it'll be fairly scary in the wet.

I'd definitely agree that a stock haldex car is not what you want for track work. In the dry they just seem to understeer like FWD with an open diff, and in the wet, the haldex becomes really unpredictable and engages mid bend taking you from understeer into oversteer without warning.

For your uses, and where you're at right now, i'd genuinely say that spending £500 on an HPA controller that you can customise will probably yield the best gains. you'll be able to set the car up how you want it in terms of 4wd balance. it's a really simple plug and play install, and in the wet you'll probably get on with it far better too.

That's not to say that FWD can't be fast in the wet. On full wets wet grip is incredible, and you'd happily run rings around a 4wd car on road tyres, but given all things equal, I think 4wd is still going to win in the wet, as there is still a limit to how much power you can deploy on a wet surface.

Lets look at it another way - You could get the performance haldex controller now for ~£500 or whatever they cost, and if you still didn't like it, you could probably shift it on for 80% of new cost anyway, so wouldn't lose that much at all.
 
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It depends on the power aswell, sub 350 a fwd will probably be better, but if your putting out some crazy power and can't put it down, you're going to want some extra traction for sure. Now I know some might say, well control your right foot, but if you've got the power, you want to deploy it all asap, if 4wd lets you do that, it becomes hugely beneficial.

An example is (can't remember his actual name) Gulfstream on Scn and vortex, he is a man who was exceeding 500hp and experience in both fwd and 4wd, a conversion I think he's extremely happy with.

Then there's the benefit of the independent rear, more adjustment available etc
 
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everyone so far has said great points so thanks guys
but im no nearer to figuring it out as there are definate pros and cons

maybe i do as prawn said and try a hpa anf go from there.
cost isnt anywhere near as important as being happy with it afterward


i dont wanna go fwd and find out it only loses 50kg and that the s3 is just heavier than an a3 elsewhere.

also in a strange way i like being the odd one out with the s3..

what about one of those haldex inserts?
they turn out rubbish?

thanks again all
great views and advice both ways
 
btw its things like scotty is mentioning that i have noticed.
if it was just 4wd i wouldnt ask
bit the haldex system is terrible in its choice making and slow getting there
 
My opinion is, if you started with an S3, it should stay 4wd, if you want to go the 2wd route, buy an A3 and do what Prawn has to his. Having been in Prawns track A3, there's no traction issues with his setup. But it comes down to a lot of things at the end of the day, like how far you want to go with the project?
 
a fwd S3 is pretty cool.
Im sure prawn wouldnt shy away from an S3 rear end if it was relatively cheap and easy.

with rear diff/haldex and prop removed i bet it could be as light as an A3. Not sure what the rear subframes weigh i've never had mine off, yet.
 
You will be more happy with the HPA over the insert... the insert will just lead to permanent haldex damage IMO...

<tuffty/>
 
a fwd S3 is pretty cool.
Im sure prawn wouldnt shy away from an S3 rear end if it was relatively cheap and easy.

with rear diff/haldex and prop removed i bet it could be as light as an A3. Not sure what the rear subframes weigh i've never had mine off, yet.
Rear subframe is around 20kgs, the rear diff is a bit more that that.
 
The understeer, oversteer, understeer ...

read up on cast wishbone camber correction

Number of solutions via different bushes and bush inserts that can be fitted

It can be removed and tight flat actuate steering geometry achieved

Fron t axle LSD really helps too
 
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.. FWD S3 ..

aka DIY Seat Leon Supacopa

untitled2.jpg


37596978_9080b39384.jpg
 
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tbf the only reason i used the s3 as a track car is because i already had it.
it was just a cheap run around for me but i was doing under 1k miles a year so thought sod it.
ok i think its becoming clearer that maybe i should at least try to maximise 4wd before i write it off

thanks guys!!
 
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I've never noticed my 4wd having any issues with kicking in mid corner or any issues such as that. Seems to drive just like a normal FWD car to me. The only time I know it is working is when I have spun all 4 wheels on grass and in the snow a couple of months ago. I guess I'm to light with it!
 
I've never noticed my 4wd having any issues with kicking in mid corner or any issues such as that. Seems to drive just like a normal FWD car to me. The only time I know it is working is when I have spun all 4 wheels on grass and in the snow a couple of months ago. I guess I'm to light with it!

Not trying hard enough lol

<tuffty/>
 
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next time on grass

put some lock on and floor it.
dont correct it just keep hands where they are
the car will understeer and slowly correct and will then oversteer.
if you boot it hard with a bit of a bend on the wheels it will oversteer straight away
its just a bit hit and miss which it does and when
 
I am huge 4wd performance car fan.

I personally think the Haldex is an awful choice from Audi for a performance orientated car. For a small crossover car like a ford kuga or a q3 its not bad but it's just not really a performance option.

I would however still recommend it above fwd. fwd can be really quick but only in absolutely perfect conditions. Add a bit of wetness or a greasy surface and it's terrible in getting power down and anything about 250bhp and you can give up on fwd to be honest. This is all from personal experience.

The added weight of Haldex with be offset with the extra traction and ability to initially put more power down. Add a controller and it will be more predictable in the corners also.
I think you'd end up regretting the decision if you decided a fwd conversion
 
I would however still recommend it above fwd. fwd can be really quick but only in absolutely perfect conditions. Add a bit of wetness or a greasy surface and it's terrible in getting power down and anything about 250bhp and you can give up on fwd to be honest.


I think I, and a handful of others on the forum, would have to disagree quite sternly on that point.

250bhp and fwd isn't a handful unless it's a sadly setup car. Personally, I find a 250bhp a3 feels a bit slow, that's just my opinion though, and no disrespect to anyone who has that and is happy.

300bhp and fwd is also not a problem in the slightest. It's only when climbing to 350bhp+ that traction becomes a concern at all in a well setup car.

I run 380bhp on track in my wrong wheel drive A3, and I've not once on track wished for 4wd.

It's very much horses for courses.

I think fwd is ultimately better for track work than 4wd, given all other things equal and remaining within the realms of reality power wise.

That said, for the cost vs effort exercise for Daz, I'd still be leaving it 4wd.
 

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