Front tyre wear - 2.0TFSI quattro

[pagenotfound]

Took all my wheels of yesterday to replace with a winter wheel set and found some unusual wear on the front tyre inside shoulders. There's a strange indentation around the shoulder rather than a uniform smooth edge that I'd have thought incorrect alignment would cause.

Weird thing is that it is over around 2/3 of the circumference of one and less than half of the other so can only think road surface damage such as speed cushions that maybe happened once or twice a while ago and has then been smoothed over with normal wear.

Anyone seen similar or got any thoughts?

 

[cuke2u]

There is another thread in here suggesting a similar issue https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/tyre-issue.380176/

 

[pagenotfound]

Thanks for pointing me to that tread thread cuke2u, maybe mods want to merge. Unfortunately it didn't appear that a solution was found during that discussion. Went to a garage earlier and they recommended a 4 wheel alignment but I don't get how the wear isn't even all round the tyre if the alignment is out.

I've also found this info on the maxxis tyres website that could indicate tyre separation. https://www.maxxis.co.uk/know-your-tyres/know-your-car-tyres/condition-and-faults. That could make sense in that the separation may only be occurring on part of the tyre.

Another thought I had was perhaps it is tyre deformation from (accidentally) hitting potholes or speed bumps at excessive speed which then causes the tyre to deform momentarily and come into contact with the suspension. Maybe it has only happened a couple of times to me so hasn't affected the whole tyre. Really clutching at ply cords here though.

I've got a couple more pics today that show normal wear leading to a section of abnormal wear. Tyres have done 24k miles so don't owe me anything and I was going to change all 4 for spring time anyway.

Groove in tyre and ply very slightly exposed:

1/4 rotation of tyre and shoulder normal in foreground but changing to grooved in the background:

 

[BigAardvaark]

Yep, happened to my original factory fitted Hankooks and the part worns I had fitted until all 4 were due. I'm fully expecting the same again, I'm going to rotate this time at about 10-15k. Only happens at the front, rears are perfectly as you would expect them to be.

 

[pagenotfound]

Did you get any alignment checks done after it happened to yours? Were your part worn replacements also Hankook? You've got the same wheels and tyres as me and also quattro, you just use a different pump to fill up. I spoke to someone at Hankook earlier and they suggested it was caused by the standard Audi alignment settings possibly not being quite right for the 19" 245 or that they were setup for sportier handling with more extreme toe in and camber. They've suggested somewhere local to me that can take a look at the tyre and send back to Hankook for investigation if they think it necessary.

 

[BigAardvaark]

Yep, all been Hankook R01. I honestly think something is coming into contact with that shoulder of the tyre, just can't work out what it is. It's too sudden, there'd be a more gradual run up to the area if it was alignment, etc, IMHO.

I'll be shut of this car by the time I need 4 new ones if I rotate so not really worth my effort taking it further but I reckon this problem isn't going away for others and it might eventually get noticed.

 

[Spearo]

Happened to me too last year , it’ll be interesting to see what the Vredesteins are like after 20k when they come off soon for the winter swap !

 

[Fozzie1960]

I renewed the fronts on mine yesterday and neither tyre displayed the wear patterns shown in this or the other thread. My wheels are 18" with Pirelli Cinturato P7.

 

[cuke2u]

Possibly heat related in some way?

 

[pagenotfound]

Appreciating the shared experiences of the front tyres. I'll try getting the tyre inspected this week. I'm wondering if they maybe rub on full lock. Driving a bit more cautiously on the new winter wheel/tyre combo until I get a better idea of what is causing it.

 

[cuke2u]

I doubt if the tyres would be catching on anything, unless there is something different with the front suspension to other cars. This would have been picked up in testing by Audi...

 

[Bryant1998]

What size wheels and tyres are you running?
That wear is way too sharp and defined to be alignment, looks like it’s either rubbing on your shocks/base of front springs or a major defect in the making of that tyre, possibly the cords not reaching the edge of the wall.

I’d guess it’s rubbing which means you need to change your tyre/wheel size to suit.

If you don’t have standard sized wheels/tyres, did they wear like this before putting bigger/different sizes on?


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[pagenotfound]

What size wheels and tyres are you running?
That wear is way too sharp and defined to be alignment, looks like it’s either rubbing on your shocks/base of front springs or a major defect in the making of that tyre, possibly the cords not reaching the edge of the wall.

I’d guess it’s rubbing which means you need to change your tyre/wheel size to suit.

If you don’t have standard sized wheels/tyres, did they wear like this before putting bigger/different sizes on?

All factory standard. It's on the wheels and tyres it left the production line on. Tyres are 245 35 19" Hankook evo S2 (RO1 spec) on the RS alloy with the sports suspension i.e. 10mm lower.

 

[Aldi-Sport Chap]

Have you taken them to a tyre dealer yet?
I've seen this a few times even on a 195x15 Fiesta and is probably just down to tracking and/or possibly camber. Unless you've bashed it the camber is unlikely to be far enough out. Uneven circumferential wear can also be a sign of worn shocks but that would affect the whole width of the tyre, not just the edge.
I believe it's a bit of a chain reaction which is why it's uneven. The toe-out causes wear, the wear causes heat, the heat can expand the rubber, make it softer and also damage the carcass causing ply separation. Expansion and softness causes really rapid extra wear. Long journeys will be worst. Ply separation just exacerbates the issue further. Once the grooves have worn away the heat build up will be far quicker and the wear rate climbs exponentially.

 

[pagenotfound]

been to an indie dealer today and the bloke there was baffled, mainly because it wasn't the full circumference that was affected and he wondered if there was some separation going on. shocks feel fine as well.

 

[f1nny]

I keep seeing a theme that most of the reports of this type of tyre wear are occurring on Quattro vehicles? There's even been reports of similar wear on the RS3 8V. I wonder if quattro system could have something to do with it when it distributes the power to the front wheels at different cornering speeds.

 

[cuke2u]

Quattro has been around for donkeys years, unless there is an individual fault with a particular system on a car there is no reoccurring reports to warrant there being an inherent issue. Manufacturers test these systems to destruction...

 

[f1nny]

Well there is obviously an issue isn't there because it's been happening to quite few people across different models. People have mentioned they have had their alignment checked over and over and it's been perfect, people have said they experienced it on different tyre brands. And I think it has also been established that it can't the suspension catching.

As you like to keep telling us "Manufacturers test these systems to destruction" so there could never be a problem.

These are extreme cases of tyre wear that keep appearing on some peoples car's that all look very very similar. If it can't be an issue with the components of the car, the alignment, or the tyres. Then surely that can only leave the way people drive their cars? But wait a minute, don't manufacturers test these cars to destruction and test them aggressively on a track, in particular Nürburgring as speed.

I've got it. It must be the Tyre Pixies eating away at the rubber during the night.

I've not been on this forum much over the last 12 months but I've noticed it's been dying a death.

I'll leave you to it

 

[shadenville]

I’ve just replaced my S4’s original Hankooks at 22K and had exactly the same wear on the fronts. Passsnger side had a serious groove around the inside edge.

Mine had event started to delaminate slightly at one point on the circumference.

Had all four tyres changed for more Hankooks and had 4 wheel laser align done - and they found both front and rear wheels were slightly out on the passenger side (it was passenger front that was bad) - but the tyre guy said “You’re always going to get inside edge wear on a car like that anyway”.

So - it may improve it, it may not - 20K+ out of a set is fine as far as I’m concerned.


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[cuke2u]

Well there is obviously an issue isn't there because it's been happening to quite few people across different models. People have mentioned they have had their alignment checked over and over and it's been perfect, people have said they experienced it on different tyre brands. And I think it has also been established that it can't the suspension catching.

As you like to keep telling us "Manufacturers test these systems to destruction" so there could never be a problem.

These are extreme cases of tyre wear that keep appearing on some peoples car's that all look very very similar. If it can't be an issue with the components of the car, the alignment, or the tyres. Then surely that can only leave the way people drive their cars? But wait a minute, don't manufacturers test these cars to destruction and test them aggressively on a track, in particular Nürburgring as speed.

I've got it. It must be the Tyre Pixies eating away at the rubber during the night.

I've not been on this forum much over the last 12 months but I've noticed it's been dying a death.

I'll leave you to it

Good, compared to the number of quattro VAG's that are sold, probably mounting to millions, do you not think that, over the 10's of years, if there was an issue with the quattro system we'd have heard something by now? The number of cars you are referring to amount to a handful and I think we should just be realistic and not jump to hasty conclusions.

The best action is, if anyone who has this issue, and I believe one owner has at least performed this, to have the tyres examined by a tyre engineer to establish what, if anything, has gone wrong...

 

[Happy Grumpz]

I had exactly the same thing...

Untitled by Matt Smith, on Flickr

 

[pagenotfound]

I had exactly the same thing...

Have you had any alignment checks carried out at all? My understanding from those that have is that it is to Audi spec. Are your winter tyres new or have you had them on before? Just wondering if they are exhibiting the same wear pattern.

I wonder if there is something about the steering geometry on RHD cars. Audi may well have tested to destruction but that tends to be on LHD vehicles and not on all wheel/tyre combos. Proof of this can be seen if you look into Mercedes 4-matic crabbing issues which seem to have been caused by the repositioning of the steering knuckle in RHD cars. That also caused excessive tyre wear and a loss of grip in low speed turns.

Wish I had a gopro to attach in the wheel arch or under the car to properly see what is going on with the tyre/road interface.

 

[Happy Grumpz]

Have you had any alignment checks carried out at all?

Yes it was done by Audi about 5k before I changed the tyres and discovered that issue.

Are your winter tyres new or have you had them on before? Just wondering if they are exhibiting the same wear pattern.

This will be my 3rd winter with the same winter tyres on and they do not display that issue

I do a lot of miles and keep a fairly close eye on my tyres.

That issue occured very, very quickly just as the tyres were getting close to the legal limit.

I've just taken identical tyres off that had a little bit more life left in them and they didn't have the same wear on the inside, they looked perfectly normal.

 

[cuke2u]

It is a strange one and perhaps the only way to get to the bottom of it is for someone who has the issue to have it properly investigated by an appropriate expert engineer, perhaps crowdfunded by other owners with a similar issue.

 

[pagenotfound]

So, got a bit of an explanation on this a while back that the car is running toe out and that my winter tyres were showing some slight feathering on that inside edge already. The more pronounced wear areas are likely from incidents of loss of traction when cornering or wheelspin. If I had wanted them sent to the manufacturer for a proper check the best possible outcome would have been a pro-rata refund based on likely remaining life so basically not worth the effort. Going to get a full alignment check when I can just to make sure it is within spec.

 

[pagenotfound]

Just wrapping this one up, had a full wheel alignment check carried out and all was within tolerance. I've changed tyres to a different brand now so will see if these fare any better.

 

[Filipão]

Dear All,

Never thought this would happen on my S4 as I had rotated tyres 12k miles ago and wear was perfectly even.

Today I replaced the 4 tyres for a new set of Hankooks.

To my surprise, fronts were exactly as you've all described.

I'm stuck with my new set of Hankooks, so any advice would be very welcome!

Thank you so much,

Filipe

 

[jds_sg]

How many miles did you get out of them in total?

 

[Filipão]

How many miles did you get out of them in total?

@jds_sg

In fact I did 30.4k km before rotating fronts to rear. (18900 miles)

By then (almost 19k miles) no apparent uneven wear.

Then I did more 9k km (5600 miles)

Both fronts are a mess. Steel mesh on sight.

Total mileage was 24.5k miles.

I have diff lock on my S4 (std on RS4 but option on S4)

Did anyone figure out what the heck is happening?

Thank you!

 

[pagenotfound]

@jds_sg

...
Did anyone figure out what the heck is happening?

Thank you!

Mine lasted a similar distance but I never rotated. Probably had around 2.5mm of tread left so had a bit of life remaining if they hadn't worn on the inside edge and, as mine is quattro I didn't want to just change the fronts.

I've now gone for Conti Sport Contact 6 RO2 tyres and really like them although I don't think there is anything wrong with the Hankooks. Going to see if these do the same thing. The rim protection is good and, rather than looking like an extra rubber bead, the sidewall just gradually tapers out to protect the rim and looks better to my eye.

In terms of what causes it, I had a full wheel alignment check at an Audi dealer and all was in spec so no adjustments required. They told me they'd seen it a fair bit and it's likely something happening as the tyre is already quite worn and then fast cornering with maybe some tyre scrub or traction loss increases the wear rapidly. They don't think there is any defect with the tyre causing it. All it means is that I maybe get a couple of thousand miles less out of a set of tyres than I otherwise would have done so not a big deal financially.

BUT..

It is definitely something to check for regularly for any Audi A4 B9 owner, and more likely those with quattro, as that wear could cause a blowout.

 

[Filipão]

thank you @pagenotfound

 

[Filipão]

I have finally received a factory reply.

Audi does have any knowledge of this or any similar problem with the A4/S4 8w.

Some input from other users would be most welcome, thank you so much!

 

[Happy Grumpz]

Well that’s BS as I reported the exact same issue to my dealer.

 

[Filipão]

@Happy Grumpz

Enclosed the official reply, I withheld the author's name as he's a former colleague (I worked 16 years for the importer)

Quote:

"Good afternoon, we looked for and asked the factory, but there is no technical information on this topic ... It seems that even Audi did not make the car, such was the surprise of our interlocutors about this situation. best regards"

Unquote

Tough...

Hope someone gets an answer!

Best wishes of a great weekend to you and all members,

Filipe

 

[Happy Grumpz]

They’ll just keep denying that there’s an issue!

And before someone jumps in and states that there isn’t an issue/your tracking us out, don’t!

Theres 100% an issue, I know as I’ve had the same on 3 sets of tyres!

 

[monkeyhanger]

Hi Everyone. Been reading this thread (and others) with interest as i'm now 2 months into ownership of a July 2019 A4 Avant 40TDI S-Line. My front tyres were replaced when I got the car, with the official line being that Audi approved used cars can't be sold with less than 3mm tyre wearand the rears were just over that and one or both front tyres were just under, so they replaced them. Can't help wondering if this wear might've been present.

Does this issue seem to be common to all B9 Quattros, or just TFSIs, or just a certain body type e.g. Avants or Saloons, or only a certain wheel size e.g. 19" wheels not 18" wheels, or only with Hankooks, not with any other tyre brand. Might be handy for those with confirmed cases to fill out a poll and identify the common factors.

I had a similar issue on the inner edges of my rear tyres on my 2011 VW Scirocco, and so did others, it was characteristic of the Pirelli P7s fitted, they lasted just 9k miles (I generally expect 40k miles on the rear tyres of a 2WD motor). Once the P7s were gone, normal tyre wear resumed.

 

[Happy Grumpz]

Mines a 2.0 TDI Quattro with 19’s and Hankooks

 

[smog c6]

It doesn’t affect every car, my car is a 2.0 tdi 190 quattro Avant and I don’t have this sort of tyre wear.

those are My front two Pirelli P zero’s from 2017 worn almost evenly to the 2.5mm mark.

 

[monkeyhanger]

Mines a 2.0 TDI Quattro with 19’s and Hankooks

OK, so it doesn't seem to be a TFSI only thing, but it might be a 19" wheels thing, or a Quattro thing (unlikely) or (mainly) a Hankook tyre thing, or specifically a 19" Hankook tyre thing.

I got my A4 with 10300ish miles on the clock, and the fronts had been replaced with Falkens prior to sale (that 3mm tread rule), but the rears are still the original Continental Contisport 6, and there's probably just over 3mm left on them. These Conti6 must be incredibly soft to be so low so soon - especially on the back axle. On a 4WD car with no tramping/wheelspin, i'd expect 25-30k miles fronts and a smidge more on the backs (no steering caused wear).

My 300ps Golf R (Haldex 4WD system, same as S3) had Michelin Pilot Supersports which were worn down to about 3.5mm on the fronts at 24k miles.

 

[Filipão]

S4 B9 19" with Hankooks