FMIC

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So just to clarify? I was right that a great cooler can be bought for under half the price!? and is as good as the forge?

And to think everyone was slating me i did say once he made one the price would drop also, £250+ delivery is a VERY good price trust me as the core isn't cheap... he couldn't believe some of the doubters when he read all this....

Just hope this helps you lot anyway its all i was ever trying to do!!!!
 
adam i dont think everyonhe was slating you mate. its more a case to do the tralking when the result have been seen. and now i think its fair they have so well done bud. could well be interested in something like this.
 
apologies if this has already been on here but soooooo much bickering means i aint going to read 7+ pages to get maybe 2 pages of info.

Im looking to order my cooler this week , After speaking to a freind who has fitted a few forge kits to S3's he said if not that exact size then he would go slightly shorter to aid getting it behind the bumper without cutting, People have also said about leaving the drivers side intercooler in situ too, So i was thinking, does a cooler for our cars need to be as big as the forge item? I know "bigger is best " isnt the rule of thumb here so... would say a 450x 280 with a 65mm core thickness work? Im running the hybrid turbo so this might effect the choice?? i could use the drivers side cooler with this if it is deemed too small alone too.

This cooler would fit easy and would help with the pipes as it will allow a little extra room for getin around the fogs.

Thanks
 
tufftybloke what's the pressure drop using the new core?

Lower AIT's dont make it a great cooler.
 
S3 Paul said:
Im looking to order my cooler this week , After speaking to a freind who has fitted a few forge kits to S3's he said if not that exact size then he would go slightly shorter to aid getting it behind the bumper without cutting, People have also said about leaving the drivers side intercooler in situ too, So i was thinking, does a cooler for our cars need to be as big as the forge item? I know "bigger is best " isnt the rule of thumb here so... would say a 450x 280 with a 65mm core thickness work? Im running the hybrid turbo so this might effect the choice?? i could use the drivers side cooler with this if it is deemed too small alone too.
Click to expand...

When I originally spoke to Alex, he suggested the same thing as the FMIC I now have is capable of flowing enough for 500 odd bhp... I wanted it to be as close to the size that is tried and tested to be sure but the best bet is to call him and have a chat about your requirements as he will be able to make something up for sure...

S3 Paul said:
This cooler would fit easy and would help with the pipes as it will allow a little extra room for getin around the fogs.

Thanks
Click to expand...

The key to retaining the fogs is the 51mm pipes... they fit in the recess under the lower grille surround of the bumper. It misses all the brackets etc for the fogs by routing underneath them. The stock S3 piping is 60mm I/D, this simply is too big to fit which is why I (and Forge) reduce to 51mm from where the OEM pipes go into the top of the SMICs.

<tuffty/>
 
james0808 said:
tufftybloke what's the pressure drop using the new core?

Lower AIT's dont make it a great cooler.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I have no idea... not something I logged or looked at logging...

All I can say, pressure drop or not is that the car is noticeably better to drive especially in this warmer weather which is almost certainly down to lower AIT's. If there is a pressure drop due to fitting this FMIC, its made no real world difference to the performance of my car.

I have better fuel economy when taking it easy and access to the cars performance more consistently than before... it works for me

<tuffty/>
 
S3 Rav said:
adam i dont think everyonhe was slating you mate. its more a case to do the tralking when the result have been seen. and now i think its fair they have so well done bud. could well be interested in something like this.
Click to expand...


I'm just glad tufty got one and saw what can be done... I will just say for the as i see a few people are asking questions...

IF you are genuinely interested ALEX will be more than happy to help on the contact details that are posted on here BUT please they are a busy company so only contact if you are interesed. They also do alot of other things too and always give the best rodicts and best service they can, unlike alot of companies they dont charge the earth for a new product they would rather sell them at a good price and sell 10 than expensive and sell 1!!!

If you need a different spec one also i know e would be able to help as i saw a few of you put about that, he's done lots of stuff for my cossie and it's all 1 off's!

i would like a cooler for my tdi as i mentioned earlier but not got the tie to get it done just now :( also had urges to buy a M3 too :uhm:....

Anyway moral of the story i hope tufty's happy and this pursuades more of you to go the cheaper but quality route :rockwoot:

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Byzan A4 said:
May i ask then, what does?:ermm:
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Its not just AIT's, good heat transfer in an intercooler that has a small pressure drop is what i would want.
You could butcher in an ebay special and get as low AIT's,doesnt mean it is an efficent intercooler.Its easy to have high heat transfer when there is a larger pressure drop because the fluid's turbulence helps the heat transfer coefficient.


I can't understand why anyone would put a core capable of 500 odd bhp on an S3 producing about half that and then lower the diameter of the cold side piping from 60mm ID to 51mm(ID or OD?) this is why i asked about the pressure drop,maybe if someone else fits one they will do some tests to measure the loss from turbo to TB?
 
I was wondering about lowering the pipe sizes by that much...
I was thinking that the hot side would be if any the smaller size? then back to standard dia. for the cold side?
The thing is... wouldnt the cars ecu throw a mardy if the preasure drop was noticable?
I had a mega small boost leak and the ecu showed a fault code of preasure drop between turbo and throttle valve.

Would 450x 280 be better than say 450x300?
I know the turbo is small so filling an overly large cooler when i floor the loud pedal isnt a good idea.
 
@James0808... IIRC, your comments were the reason Adam pulled out of the group buy in the first place. Personally I have no real interest in the whys and where fores, that wasn't what I set out to achieve.... I asked Alex at AH to build a cooler that was a similar design to the Forge one as it is a proven product. The 51mm piping was necessary to facilitate fitment to the S3 and retain fog lights.

I am sure that there is a more scientific way to go about building an intercooler for a car but as mine is a road car used to transport my fat *** to work and back and my daughter to the leisure centre then quite frankly I don't really care and you are asking the wrong person...

I am fairly sure that nobody else really cares either because if they did (and I believe you have implied this from previous posts), they would 'leave the boring Audi on the drive' and drive off in a car where that that sort of detail would really matter...

The end game was to:
A) get a FMIC that works better than the SMICs
B) fits the car with little or no modification while retaining the OE look of the car and...
C) cost less than the Forge...

..and the results???

A) SMICs under boost (stage 1 remap) produced 70deg AIT's at 16deg ambient, AH FMIC produced 45deg AIT's at 28 degree ambient... 54deg versus 17deg difference...

Result... win!

B) Fog lights retained, fits as well as I have seen Forge ones on S3's do and took hardly any time to sort out

Result... win!

C) The whole lot cost just over £400 to put together, this is now less as the FMIC on its own will cost £250 and not the £300 I paid. Forge IIRC is still nearly £700, granted it includes everything and the AH solution means you have to shop around for bits but still represents a saving..

Result... win!

On the whole, most people either fit a FMIC to say they have one or are happy with the fact that despite not understanding fully why it works, they know it does and thats good enough...

If you really want to know all this stuff mate, give AH a call and ask them

<tuffty/>
 
here here about time someone said it apart from me! JAMES if your so worried about the cooler then as said call alex and he WILL bore you shitless on how he knows what he's doing and why he sued this core for what rason and WHY IT WORKS! After all as i have said in many of my other replies he obviously gets asked to do stuff for F1 cars etc etc cause he makes the wrong choices!

As for the pipe size this reminds me of the good old cossie forum rubbish on lets all run 3'' + pipes as its gonna make it better! Utter crap people who do this know nothing about flow alex would have done the usual and worked it all out on the pc or calculator as to the pipe sizes and what would be best all round for the spec.. As he did with my cossie and as usual he was right with my cossie and mine made better figure than many others- reason: only few companies genuinely know what there doing and wont just let the customer HAVE what they want, if alex didnt agree with something its simple he'd suggest against it and if they still wanted it and e was concerned he'd tell them to go elsewhere, he'd rather see the product be used to its full potential than just do wat tom **** or harry says!

And in all honesty i think he's rather do the F1 stuff all day long its a far better money maker than a cooler, 1 tank can cost over 1k! Heres the major BUT he enjoys making things for people like tufty here, to reep the benefits of a good cooler and not get ripped off by others and see them go away with big grins and really happy... end of...

Also wheres this cooler of yours you were getting done for people? alex got this one draw up in 1 day and made the next... yours is where??

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tufftybloke said:
@James0808... IIRC, your comments were the reason Adam pulled out of the group buy in the first place. Personally I have no real interest in the whys and where fores, that wasn't what I set out to achieve.... I asked Alex at AH to build a cooler that was a similar design to the Forge one as it is a proven product. The 51mm piping was necessary to facilitate fitment to the S3 and retain fog lights.

I am sure that there is a more scientific way to go about building an intercooler for a car but as mine is a road car used to transport my fat *** to work and back and my daughter to the leisure centre then quite frankly I don't really care and you are asking the wrong person...

I am fairly sure that nobody else really cares either because if they did (and I believe you have implied this from previous posts), they would 'leave the boring Audi on the drive' and drive off in a car where that that sort of detail would really matter...

The end game was to:
A) get a FMIC that works better than the SMICs
B) fits the car with little or no modification while retaining the OE look of the car and...
C) cost less than the Forge...

..and the results???

A) SMICs under boost (stage 1 remap) produced 70deg AIT's at 16deg ambient, AH FMIC produced 45deg AIT's at 28 degree ambient... 54deg versus 17deg difference...

Result... win!

B) Fog lights retained, fits as well as I have seen Forge ones on S3's do and took hardly any time to sort out

Result... win!

C) The whole lot cost just over £400 to put together, this is now less as the FMIC on its own will cost £250 and not the £300 I paid. Forge IIRC is still nearly £700, granted it includes everything and the AH solution means you have to shop around for bits but still represents a saving..

Result... win!

On the whole, most people either fit a FMIC to say they have one or are happy with the fact that despite not understanding fully why it works, they know it does and thats good enough...

If you really want to know all this stuff mate, give AH a call and ask them

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...

Well said tuffty.
I think people get a bit hung up on assessing the fine end of a fart when it comes to FMICs on the S3. It's a 1.8 litre hatchback for goodness sake...not a Championship winning race car.

It works. You kept your foglights. You didn't suffer financial ruin.
All good.

Well done! More 'doing' than talking and discussing every last fraction of a BHP you may or may not find/loose. :thumbsup:
 
S3 Paul said:
The thing is... wouldnt the cars ecu throw a mardy if the preasure drop was noticable?

I had a mega small boost leak and the ecu showed a fault code of preasure drop between turbo and throttle valve.
Click to expand...

I think the ECU needs to see a fairly large difference between expected and actual boost to throw a code.
If you blow a pipe off, you'll get the error (from experience) but it would have to be an uber poor FMIC to ever give you that sort of pressure drop.

Besides, assuming you aren't running the turbo balls-out, the ECU will try to make up for a slight drop in pressure as the MAP sensor is downstream of the FMIC, so it should try to run the turbo harder to make up for the drop....which will in turn add heat, which gives the FMIC more work to do...and round and round we go.
 
MAD_Adamski said:
As for the pipe size this reminds me of the good old cossie forum rubbish on lets all run 3'' + pipes as its gonna make it better! Utter crap people who do this know nothing about flow alex would have done the usual and worked it all out on the pc or calculator as to the pipe sizes and what would be best all round for the spec..
Click to expand...


And you dont think Audi went upto 60mm for a reason,i dont think they just guessed at that size,reducing to 51mm either outside or inside diameter is not good and will cause more of a pressure drop than 60mm,fact.
 
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james0808 said:
And you dont think Audi went upto 60mm for a reason,i dont think they just guessed at that size,reducing to 51mm either outside or inside diameter is not good and will cause more of a pressure drop than 60mm,fact.
Click to expand...


who actual cares d00de... seriously!!!
 
james0808 said:
And you dont think Audi went upto 60mm for a reason,i dont think they just guessed at that size,reducing to 51mm either outside or inside diameter is not good and will cause more of a pressure drop than 60mm,fact.
Click to expand...

I don't know what to say here...

The bottom line is, the cooler works & does the job it's supposed to! How can you debate that? You're obviously not happy about the idea, so the answer is simple. Don't fit one.
The standard pipework is probably 60mm because that's what's coming out of the turbo & might allow for the innefficient SMIC's.
Bear in mind that the whole point of this excercise was to improve on the standard OE compromised set up, same as any other mod.

You're also so obviously hung up on the issue of it being rated to 500bhp. Why?
As an example, "ZR" tyres are rated to over 150mph, does this mean we shouldn't fit them because chances are we won't be travelling at that speed? I think not.
The rating in this case just means it has a bit more potential for future upgrades.
Anything that is proven to work & improve over standard is fine by me! :)
 
S4quatt said:
The standard pipework is probably 60mm because that's what's coming out of the turbo & might allow for the innefficient SMIC's.
Click to expand...

You really havent got a clue why the pipework goes larger in diameter from the turbo to the throttle have you?

S4quatt said:
I don't know what to say here...

The bottom line is, the cooler works & does the job it's supposed to! How can you debate that? You're obviously not happy about the idea, so the answer is simple. Don't fit one.
The standard pipework is probably 60mm because that's what's coming out of the turbo & might allow for the innefficient SMIC's.
Bear in mind that the whole point of this excercise was to improve on the standard OE compromised set up, same as any other mod.

You're also so obviously hung up on the issue of it being rated to 500bhp. Why?
As an example, "ZR" tyres are rated to over 150mph, does this mean we shouldn't fit them because chances are we won't be travelling at that speed? I think not.
The rating in this case just means it has a bit more potential for future upgrades.
Anything that is proven to work & improve over standard is fine by me! :)
Click to expand...


The cooler does lower temps but at what cost to the poor little turbo?

The cooler will never flow enough air through a 51mm od inlet/outlet to get anywhere near the claimed 500bhp on an S3 so is a waste of time being that big.The inlet/outlet are right at the bommom of the end tanks so the top half will never really be doing anything apart from adding to the pressure drop.

Bottom line is you could get the same AIT's(seeing as that is all some people think you need)using a cheaper smaller fmic.
 
Actually I apologise to everyone for getting involved in james's one man crusade against the humble front mount.

After all what would I, an engineer of 15 years know about the subject.


I'm Sorry:end_of_discction:
 
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S4quatt said:
Actually I apologise to everyone for getting involved in james's one man crusade against the humble front mount.

After all what would I, an engineer of 15 years know about the subject.


I'm Sorry:end_of_discction:
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Don't worry mate like you and like i have said for alex whose had probably 20-30 yrs experience its clear james knows way more...

BUT i think as Ess's has pointed out its a ****** car and 95% of people a day to day car! A new cooler has been made for half the price and does everything you want it too so GAME ON! Its all i was ever trying to do for people at the start....

i also noticed you didnt reply to my quetion james on where your all singing and dancing cooler kit is you were getting made ages ago?

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james0808 said:
And you dont think Audi went upto 60mm for a reason,i dont think they just guessed at that size,reducing to 51mm either outside or inside diameter is not good and will cause more of a pressure drop than 60mm,fact.
Click to expand...

so your telling me a 9mm different is detrimental seriously jog on...:tocktock:
 
James, I really think you are missing the point and trying to create an argument that really isn't there or that anyone really cares about.

I have no idea what the effect of reducing the piping from 60mm to 51mm would have as I don't have the knowledge or expertise to apply any form of science to it, if you do then kudos to you.

The pattern for the FMIC I asked AH to make was based on a known product and one proven in the field. Forge use 51mm pipes on their cooler, the reason I have since worked out is to do with fitment rather than anything else... I am pretty sure they would have kept it 60mm if they thought they could get away with it.

Incidentally, Alex actually suggested that I could use a smaller core but I insisted on dimensions similar to Forge knowing this was a proven product and I wanted it to fit without modification (which it does).

I am not saying your arguments aren't valid but in this particular case they are just irrelevant... the design was based on a know working one and the fact of the matter is, it works....

You can argue the science of it all you like, if you are really that bothered about it then design your own, apply the science, create the ultimate cooler that will get the AIT's down, not affect pressure or flow and will fit the S3 without substantial modification and at a price point people are happy to pay...

Let us know how you get on...

<tuffty/>
 
I think everyone has made their points now, and this discussion can close now. If anyone else wishes to start a new group buy, or how to thread they are welcome
 
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