Ethics of Tuning boxes etc

RonS3

DERV convert
I have read many posts discussing how electronic engine tuning can be concealed from Audi, in order to ensure warranty claims are successful. Clearly the only motive to hide these modifications, is when the tuning itself causes a failure the regretful owner now hopes they can blame on someone else.

Whilst I understand engine / gearbox failure is horrendously expensive, I struggle to understand why people feel it’s acceptable to be dishonest about their part in the cause. When tuning our cars, we all realise there are risks, so why bother if you’re not prepared to take the consequences?

If we can avoid

1) VAG are hardly paragons of virtue with their emissions scandal
(Two wrongs don’t make right)
2) Audi make plenty of money anyway
(Stealing is still stealing even if the victim is rich)
3) Everyone else is doing it, so why not
(Still doesn’t make it right)

I have a feeling I could be alone in my ideal world........ anyone?
 

Nickfrog

Registered User
I agree.
 

DohNut

Registered User
Just you two then.
 

Nickfrog

Registered User
Yes but perhaps not surprising. It's not really a popularity contest. I find that popularity is a poor metric on ethical matters anyway...
 

cuke2u

Registered User
Just you two then.
Quite, one of the silliest debates in here as whatever the objectors think it will still happen. At least unlike speeding it doesn't kill anyone...
 

Nickfrog

Registered User
one of the silliest debates in here as whatever the objectors think it will still happen.

I can't see anything silly, I think the plurality of opinions enriches a debate. I wouldn't dream of calling a debate silly just because some disagree with me, but I guess we are all different.
 

kmanmx

Registered User
When Volkswagen Audi Group make 200 billion euros a year in revenue and compensate their executives double digit millions, while simultaneously lieing through their teeth about everything from emissions to fuel economy... so yeah, I would have absolutely zero moral guilt about trying to sneak a warranty claim if a tuning box ever caused some kind of damage.

This is a huge beast of a company that spent the past 20 years pulluting the earth to such an extent that scientists have had to re-jig their computer simulations of global warming to take into account all the extra pollutants in the atmosphere from VAG cars after dieselgate. This is a company which has proved it has zero concern for it's customers or the world in general. I don't see why anyone would feel they owe VAG anything.

On the plus side they make great cars which is all I really care about, so I will continue to buy them :p
 

Daggerit

Registered User
I'll be taking mine off when it goes in for servicing for sure. I'm not going to publicise the fact that it's on there to Audi for them to potentially pull warranty on something unrelated (which they do often). The exhaust, springs, spacers and air filter will all be staying on though so it's not like I'm taking the ****, and if there was a warranty issue I'd play it by ear as to whether it might've been the tuning box or not as to whether I volunteer the information.

If they asked me though, I wouldn't lie about the box having been on.
 

Daniel1512

Registered User
Sod the vag group what about all the things they do to all it's owners with common faults that they don't correct under warranty and say people have to pay out for knowing full well its a common problem they say doesn't exists
 

Jsmills

Registered User
I’ve had them in the past, I think the problem is I have no issue paying for a issue it causes, but the blanket drivetrain ban is disproportionate and not entirely fair in all situations. I can see the issue from both sides and it’s not simple. Maybe they shouldn’t hold back the engines so much so it is less attractive to upgrade.
 

SMI77

Australia
Having worked in wholesale motor finance (manufacturer to dealer) for many years, I very early came to the conclusion that manufacturers are very similar to insurance companies, deny everything until they are proven to be wrong and then drag it out hoping the customer will go away. I left out the dealer, because they are the meat in the sandwich, between manufacturer and customer, and manufacturers screw the dealers at every opportunity. Fact.

I am ancient and retired (& grumpy) and still have 2+ yrs warranty period left. At that time, could be in a retirement home, or, better still (for the world) reduced to fertilizer pushing up daisies. It is not rocket science that I much prefer to enjoy the S4 now with the enhancements.
 

Dippy

Registered User
I'd like to side with RonS3 and Nickfrog but I can't. I cannot be the only one who has had a car part fail, then find out that it is a common failure and so can be considered a "known" failure, and that Audi did nothing about it. Off the top of my head there were 3 parts on my B5 which come under this category which failed and I had to pay for, and then at least 2 which fortunately did not fail but were still in that category. Now I have a B8 and although mine is a 2015 so hopefully OK, I still have to live with the worry that one day the s-tronic transmission will fail and I'll have to pay for it. I feel for the owners of B8s who have had that transmission failure and had to pay - when Audi knew there were design flaws with it.

So in that context I fully support anyone who takes their tuning box off and makes a warranty claim. Good luck to you.
 

B5NUT

Well-Known Member
VCDS Map User
I guess the VW group must be sick of repairing cars that have been damaged due to modifications made by their owners (hence the creation of TD1 code's). However, it's not Audi that should be concerned, it's us Audi owners! We could be buying 3+ year old cars that have had tuning boxes or remaps that have been removed, but for the first 3 years of the cars life it's been ragged, and then cars gearbox or engine has problem later on in it's life which the new owner has to deal with and pay for.

I guess it comes down to not caring any more as once the car has sold it's some else's issue so F*$%em.....
 

Nickfrog

Registered User
I guess it comes down to not caring any more as once the car has sold it's some else's issue so F*$%em.....

No that's OK, it goes back to Audi...apparently. ;-)

(I am not convinced the factory collects second hand cars though)
 
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A

And1

Guest
I guess the VW group must be sick of repairing cars that have been damaged due to modifications made by their owners (hence the creation of TD1 code's). However, it's not Audi that should be concerned, it's us Audi owners! We could be buying 3+ year old cars that have had tuning boxes or remaps that have been removed, but for the first 3 years of the cars life it's been ragged, and then cars gearbox or engine has problem later on in it's life which the new owner has to deal with and pay for.

I guess it comes down to not caring any more as once the car has sold it's some else's issue so F*$%em.....
Why would a car be ragged just because it's had a tuning box I've always had them over the last 15 years on many different makes of car with no problems. It's how you treat a vehicle you could buy a 3 year old car that's been taken on track days and ragged or driven hard day in day out.or a car like mine what's looked after and occasionally driven fast but 95% of the time driven sensible.
 
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cuke2u

Registered User
Exactly the point, as I keep saying fitting any remap or tuning box is not about out and out power it is about tractibility. It is just an assumption that having a engine modified will lead to issues when it is still within safe output figures, it is the manufacturers who strangle a engine just so it is within other factors such as emmisions.
If you rag a engine in standard tune you will have problems just the same....
 

RonS3

DERV convert
Apologies for being a grumpy old git, but the worrying point for me is the general erosion of honesty, integrity and respect for others. As time goes by the “I don’t give a s**t for anyone but myself” seems a sad state of affairs to me.

You can see the effect,

VAG cheat on emissions... why should I worry about doing the same with my tuning.
VAG execs make loads of money... why would I worry about cheating them out of a few quid on my warranty.
I’ll loose money on the sale of my car if I tell people it was tuned... I don’t care if it costs someone else later.

The only way is down with this approach to life and in my view gives rise to things like loyal customers by being charged more and more for, say insurance, compared to a new customer.

Anyway I’ll be wandering round a nursing home randomly shouting “Quattro” before the world implodes, so I’ll carry on my lone crusade for principals until then
 

Nickfrog

Registered User
It is just an assumption that having a engine modified will lead to issues when it is still within safe output figures

The warranty claim doesn't even have to be a consequence of the the tune to lead to a financially painful warranty rejection, particularly for the second owner who may not even be aware.
 

SMI77

Australia
Apologies for being a grumpy old git, but the worrying point for me is the general erosion of honesty, integrity and respect for others. As time goes by the “I don’t give a s**t for anyone but myself” seems a sad state of affairs to me.
From one grumpy old git to another grumpy old git...what rock have you been living under, like a hermit, for many decades!!!
'honesty, integrity and respect for others' - that died well before the turn of the century.
If you happen to meet a used car salesman, either an 'ex', or in a social environment, but off-site, ask them what stunts honest customers pull when they trade in their perfect vehicle. You will be amazed!!!!!

...and, reiterating what I previously said, manufacturers will screw dealers, and in fact, any person within their grasp, at any opportunity, and that has also been happening for decades.
Yes, I like to think I have principles too (must be an old git thing), but if I shake the hand of a manufacturer's rep I invariably check to see if I still have 4 fingers and a thumb.

It is not surprising Audi & Porsche are the VAG's most profitable divisions, and they thank us all for our most generous donations to their cause.
 

Boosted_Six

Registered User
I think OP should also consider much more important and practical areas of ethical consumption in everyday life. For example who made the clothes you wear and in what conditions are they working in? Where did your morning coffee come from was the rain forest slashed to produce it? Was your shampoo tested on beavers etc etc
 

cuke2u

Registered User
Beavers? I hope not ;-)
 

Nickfrog

Registered User
I think OP should also consider much more important and practical areas of ethical consumption in everyday life.

Maybe he does that too.
 

DohNut

Registered User
Just watched an interesting YouTube video by WiZe1972. Apparently in Switzerland you can purchase a stage 1 ABT tune direct from an Audi dealer without voiding the warranty. This adds food for thought here.

Anyone know if this is the case for the UK and how much an ABT tune costs?
 

Daggerit

Registered User
Just watched an interesting YouTube video by WiZe1972. Apparently in Switzerland you can purchase a stage 1 ABT tune direct from an Audi dealer without voiding the warranty. This adds food for thought here.

Anyone know if this is the case for the UK and how much an ABT tune costs?

It’s the same here and I actually enquired about how much their tuning box is.

£2,300! I don’t know if it’s worth it at that price to be honest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

hmy7k

Registered User
The issue that concerns me about tuning boxes is they are unregulated and therefore no one knows what harm they might be doing.

Manufacturers have to test their products and although to date the tests they have been using are not rigorous enough at least they get tested.

Tuning boxes may have a significant additional impact on emissions and particularly particulates in built up areas.

Mind you its not as bad the dpf deletion that many people had done to improve performance without any consideration for the impact on other people.
 

Daggerit

Registered User
The issue that concerns me about tuning boxes is they are unregulated and therefore no one knows what harm they might be doing.

Manufacturers have to test their products and although to date the tests they have been using are not rigorous enough at least they get tested.

Tuning boxes may have a significant additional impact on emissions and particularly particulates in built up areas.

Mind you its not as bad the dpf deletion that many people had done to improve performance without any consideration for the impact on other people.

You could check direct with the box manufacturers but ABT show a decrease in CO2/km (don’t know how big of a pinch of salt to take that with though) and I think that the DTUK box doesn’t do a huge amount under low load/rpm conditions so there’s no effect on emissions there IF that’s the case I’d have thought.


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SMI77

Australia
It’s the same here and I actually enquired about how much their tuning box is.
£2,300! I don’t know if it’s worth it at that price to be honest.

Is that GBP 2,300 ex-ABT? That would sound right as ABT Aust. quoted AUD5,000 (1:1.8) & still had to be fitted by a local agent to satisfy warranty. Enquired about Audi Aust. warranty deal & was told, only in Europe. Can only imagine the Audi dealer charge. Almost 10K = DTUK time :yes:

These engines would be built to comfortably accept a certain power increase, I would call 20% reasonable. If one does not thrash the ring out of it then, if it suffers a failure, that to me is a faulty workmanship scenario and would occur with or without a tune box.

If one is so worried about the environment, why purchase an A4. I recall industry reports early '17 advising a temporary halt in A4/S4 production because Audi had emission concerns. Euro 6 benchmarks are calculated on the average emissions over the entire fleet, not each model individually. A4's were Audi's worst performers. If the actual truth was with diesels, then do not buy a diesel. We at home have solar electricity power, to assist reduce the emissions of coal generating electricity, which is f-a-r, f-a-r, worse than vehicles will ever produce. We buy goods that do not have excess packaging and look to recycled packaging. We put our rubbish in the bin, not in waterways. There are many ways to help the environment.
This also appears to be the last model to be solely ICE (internal combustion engine) powered. Part-hybrid is the first step to full hybrid.
 
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hmy7k

Registered User
Co2 emissions are only part of it NOX and particulates are far more damaging to health than co2 which is a greenhouse gas but not necessarily a health issue.
When the new testing regime for cars is in place I wouldn't be surprised if these boxes were either regulated or banned.
 

Daggerit

Registered User
Is that GBP 2,300 ex-ABT? That would sound right as ABT Aust. quoted AUD5,000 (1:1.8) & still had to be fitted by a local agent to satisfy warranty. Enquired about Audi Aust. warranty deal & was told, only in Europe. Can only imagine the Audi dealer charge. Almost 10K = DTUK time :yes:

These engines would be built to comfortably accept a certain power increase, I would call 20% reasonable. If one does not thrash the ring out of it then, if suffers a failure, that to me is a faulty workmanship scenario and would occur with or without a tune box.

That was GBP 2300 fitted by the UK distributer. They’re like 500 miles away from me though so would be a serious road trip just to get it fitted...


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DohNut

Registered User
So back to OP on the ethics then. Seems if you bung Audi enough cash they are happy to keep the warranty in place but use an unaffiliated 3rd party (read nothing in it for them) they won’t.

Perfectly ethical behaviour here then.
 

B5NUT

Well-Known Member
VCDS Map User
Dealer are just franchised, they are not owned or run directly by Audi, so they could just be selling them off their own back and turning a blind eye.

I've never seen a tuning box as an option on official AUDI web sites be it UK or de.
 

DohNut

Registered User
Dealer are just franchised, they are not owned or run directly by Audi, so they could just be selling them off their own back and turning a blind eye.

I've never seen a tuning box as an option on official AUDI web sites be it UK or de.

Turning a blind eye! What school of business does that come from? Seriously, do you really think that’s how a dealer operates?
 

Kev57

Registered User
I have read many posts discussing how electronic engine tuning can be concealed from Audi, in order to ensure warranty claims are successful. Clearly the only motive to hide these modifications, is when the tuning itself causes a failure the regretful owner now hopes they can blame on someone else.

Whilst I understand engine / gearbox failure is horrendously expensive, I struggle to understand why people feel it’s acceptable to be dishonest about their part in the cause. When tuning our cars, we all realise there are risks, so why bother if you’re not prepared to take the consequences?

If we can avoid

1) VAG are hardly paragons of virtue with their emissions scandal
(Two wrongs don’t make right)
2) Audi make plenty of money anyway
(Stealing is still stealing even if the victim is rich)
3) Everyone else is doing it, so why not
(Still doesn’t make it right)

I have a feeling I could be alone in my ideal world........ anyone?
Get a life
 

SMI77

Australia
Dealer are just franchised, they are not owned or run directly by Audi, so they could just be selling them off their own back and turning a blind eye.
I've never seen a tuning box as an option on official AUDI web sites be it UK or de.

I do not recall that anyone ever said Audi or its dealers were selling them. I understand that Audi will honour its warranty if the unit is fitted by an authorised dealer, only in certain countries. One would surmise that the actual sale of the unit is between ABT and the vehicle owner (unless a present or something).

I do have a problem though that Audi is world-wide, so that warranty deal should be also world-wide, or, at minimum, the countries that ABT are represented. ABT Australia, funnily enough is in Aust., but no warranty deal exists. Their loss.
Who is ABT - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abt_Sportsline
 

SMI77

Australia

Daggerit

Registered User
I do not recall that anyone ever said Audi or its dealers were selling them. I understand that Audi will honour its warranty if the unit is fitted by an authorised dealer, only in certain countries. One would surmise that the actual sale of the unit is between ABT and the vehicle owner (unless a present or something).

I do have a problem though that Audi is world-wide, so that warranty deal should be also world-wide, or, at minimum, the countries that ABT are represented. ABT Australia, funnily enough is in Aust., but no warranty deal exists. Their loss.
Who is ABT - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abt_Sportsline

You say that, but they seem to have with the Nogaro edition RS6.

http://www.evo.co.uk/audi/rs6/20721...bt-sportsline-for-a-695bhp-rs6-nogaro-edition

The warranty with ABT is through there own warranty company I believe , but they’re close enough with Audi that it can all be done through your local dealership.

All that could be wrong, but it’s basically the summary of what I can find on the net.


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Nickfrog

Registered User
Get a life

From the rules of this very forum:

(1) Personal abuse of other Audi-Sport.net members is not permitted. If you disagree with something another member says, by all means discuss the topic with them and use whatever facts and evidence you wish to support your views. Personal abuse/attacks only suggest that you cannot support your views in any other way. Behaviour of this type will not be tolerated.

I think the bit in bold is spot on.
 
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