Engine mount query - 2.0 TDI

DJ_26

Registered User
Hi guys, my car has been making a loud knock noise at random times, mostly if I move off and brake suddenly, or if I'm reversing up a gradient (up a hill/driveway) or when performing a three-point turn. It feels like it is coming from the floor/footwell area.

This all started after I had my wishbone bushes changed and my car started pulling to the left and then went to the right if I accelerated. So at the time, we checked it and it turns out one of the subframe bolts had snapped causing the waywardness. Once replaced, car drove straight but knock was still there. So mechanic has looked at it again and noticed that there was a lot of play in the dogbone mount.

I just wanted to clarify what parts I need/what ones are worth changing. So I found a useful picture:

engine mount fitted.JPG


The part I've been told to get shown below:
Rear engine mount.jpg


My question is, if there is a lot of play in this mount, is it not the actual round part that needs changing (where the red powerflex insert is in the first picture) where the slim end of the dogbone attaches to? That is a separate part in itself?

If this is correct, will I also be needing that part (please confirm if the one shown below is the right one):

engine mount.jpg



Thanking you in advance!
 

DJ_26

Registered User
Right guys, I've spent quite a lot more time researching this and have found some useful information. But still would like your help and confirmation that what I have found is correct!

So it looks like the dogbone essentially fits/slides inbetween two separate mounts (that are pressed in through the top and bottom of a circular hole in the subframe). Once slid in, a bolt secures all three. I found some great photos to explain this:

The shiny ones are new VWRacing products that a guy was planning to fit. The ones below are the OEM mounts. They are two separate parts. Note also the circular hole in the subframe.

two round mounts go into subframe before dogbone slides in - 2.jpg


The two sit on top of each other to make a slot for the dogbone to fit in.

subframe engine mount - complete.jpg

First of the two mounts fitted.

subframe slot with one mount fitted.jpg


subframe mounting position.jpg


The hole in the subframe that the dogbone slides into.

subframe slot for both disc mounts.jpg



What it would look like once fitted:

engine mount complete.jpg



Fitted:

two round mounts go into subframe before dogbone slides in.jpg



So I just want to know:

1) Has anyone had experience of having these mounts changed on their car?
2) Whether all I need are the two separate mounts and the dogbone?
3) Will the subframe have to be dropped for the two circular mounts to be pressed in?
4) Are these the right ones here?

http://www.gsfcarparts.com/101vg0960
http://www.gsfcarparts.com/101vg0970

5) Does anyone rate Meyle parts? Or are Lemforder (OEM apparently) better?

If anyone can answer one or all the questions I will massively appreciate it :)

My mechanic reckons it's just the small bush sitting within the dogbone itself and that the others might be fine. Anyone else experienced that?
 
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c_w

Registered User
Would be interested in replies to this too, as I think my engine rocks too much (has 166,000miles). No interest in fitting daft "performance" mounts though a they will just kill the little refinement my TDI has!

Does look like a really over the top design though with two bushes pressed in to the subframe! It makes sense why on Eurocarparts there's a lower inner, upper outer etc.

Looking at the small bush, I think this part is less likely to give play, but could be wrong.
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/attachments/rear-engine-mount-jpg.78435/
 

Sayam

Well-Known Member
VCDS Map User
Yes you need the dog bone plus the two pieces that make up the large bush in the sub frame.

Yes the sub frame needs to be dropped to press the old bushes out and new ones in (great time to upgrade front anti-roll bar).

I only use suspension parts from Audi or Lemforder ones if buying aftermarket.

Also fit this spacer kit at the same time HERE to cure any left over knock from the sub frame which is a characteristic of this chassis.

Sorry I can't answer all your questions but I hope that helps :)
 

c_w

Registered User
What's the reason for the spacers in that subframe kit? Can't you just replace the bolts with new ones?

Any recommendations on anti roll bar kit? as it's sometihng I''ve thought of doing before, so subframe needs dropping then like you say a good time to do it.
 

DJ_26

Registered User
Yes you need the dog bone plus the two pieces that make up the large bush in the sub frame.

Yes the sub frame needs to be dropped to press the old bushes out and new ones in (great time to upgrade front anti-roll bar).

I only use suspension parts from Audi or Lemforder ones if buying aftermarket.

Also fit this spacer kit at the same time HERE to cure any left over knock from the sub frame which is a characteristic of this chassis.

Sorry I can't answer all your questions but I hope that helps :)

Cheers for the reply Sayam. Yeah same, I only use Audi or Lemforder ones too. With regards to the spacer kit, whilst researching all this, I did come across that and saw a very good video by ECS Tuning who are the ones that supply this kit to Awesome. For some reason though, the Awesome website lists a number of Volkswagen models for the application of the part. I have confirmed with Awesome that this part would fit my 8P. The issue I'm finding is that in other videos, people swap the "skinny VW" bolts for the thicker "Audi" bolts. Firstly I'm surprised that different bolts are used between the two companies. Shouldn't this mean that the bolts in the spacer kit are probably the same as the stocks ones used in the Audi already? I'm not sure, I guess if the subframe has been moving it may be worth just getting this kit anyway.
 

Sayam

Well-Known Member
VCDS Map User
Cheers for the reply Sayam. Yeah same, I only use Audi or Lemforder ones too. With regards to the spacer kit, whilst researching all this, I did come across that and saw a very good video by ECS Tuning who are the ones that supply this kit to Awesome. For some reason though, the Awesome website lists a number of Volkswagen models for the application of the part. I have confirmed with Awesome that this part would fit my 8P. The issue I'm finding is that in other videos, people swap the "skinny VW" bolts for the thicker "Audi" bolts. Firstly I'm surprised that different bolts are used between the two companies. Shouldn't this mean that the bolts in the spacer kit are probably the same as the stocks ones used in the Audi already? I'm not sure, I guess if the subframe has been moving it may be worth just getting this kit anyway.

No worries.

From the research I've done this spacer kit does work with out chassis even though the website only lists the VW variants.

To be honest I haven't come across the skinny or less-skinny bolts and I imagine that people are fitting thicker bolts from a bigger car like a Passat or A4 or something like that (if it has a similar setup).

The danger with doing that is that I've read those bolts are designed to snap in a collision, soaking up energy that would otherwise be transmitted into the passenger compartment, which is obviously not desirable.

I will be fitting that kit and trusting that the bolts supplied are designed to break (assuming the OEM ones are) at the same force as the OEM ones. It would make sense for them to be designed this way since they are a replacement kit for this chassis and not a bigger car.

I don't know if thats just a collection of brain-farts or if that makes sense lol :)
 

DJ_26

Registered User
It makes sense to me :) Have you installed a set on your car? I'm just thinking that if we go to the effort of fitting this kit, shouldn't we replace the rest of the bolts holding the subframe? Saw an interesting video about subframe collar kits. Although I don't know if that will be overkill. Not planning to track the car or anything, but I'm sure it will stop that subframe from moving in normal road use! There is another thread on here (http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/thread...owered-a3-mk5-golf-issue.140360/#post-1427369) where someone described it very well:

"As I'm pulling away from stationary (just as the clutch bites and the wheels start to pull the car along) I get a pop/ click noise which sounds like its coming from underneath the car somewhere, possibly footwell area or underneath the forward seating area. It is one click/clunk and thats it, until I stop and pull away again. It never happens at speed, just the initial load of pulling away and sometimes braking to a halt. I'm wondering if it is the chassis/subframe bolts not being tight enough and allowing some very slight movement when the chassis is placed under strain when pulling away... maybe? "

As for upgrading the front anti-roll bar, are there any good reasonably priced ones? I've seen some kits where both bars come to about £350. I think I would have to go the whole hog to truly appreciate it (i.e. fit new springs, dampers, new top mounts and other bushes etc.) Unless there is a more reasonably priced one! I remember that an OMP lower strut brace for my old fiesta was about £40 new! I've got some powerflex anti-roll bar bushes sitting here, so if the subframe is dropped it can be fitted easily. Will these on its own make much difference? I have the powerflex wishbone bushes fitted already.
 
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c_w

Registered User
Uprating your anti roll bar BUSHES only won't do much at all.

I've found ST Suspension 26/23mm f/r anti roll bar kit for around £260 online, looking at getting that as it's about £100 cheaper than Eibach and H&R kits, and surely can't be bad a as it's just a piece of metal.
 

DJ_26

Registered User
Uprating your anti roll bar BUSHES only won't do much at all.

I've found ST Suspension 26/23mm f/r anti roll bar kit for around £260 online, looking at getting that as it's about £100 cheaper than Eibach and H&R kits, and surely can't be bad a as it's just a piece of metal.

Good shout, and I get what you mean about it being a piece of metal. It''s the same diameter as the KW kits (I believe ST is made by KW). Any good reviews for KW kits?

I'm starting to think that all subframe bolts many need changing, or am I just being paranoid? lol The spacer kit has arrived. My only concern is that even if the spacer kit with two new bolts are fitted, is there a possibility that the other subframe bolts may have "stretched" and will still promote movement in the subframe? Bearing in mind one of the subframe bolts had snapped previously and this may/may not have put more stress on the other bolts? Or are there enough bolts in a subframe for them to not be stressed? Oh, suspension.
 

DJ_26

Registered User
UPDATE TIME: Problem fixed!

So mechanic got the car on the ramp. He noticed that there was quite a lot of play in the dogbone mount, so much so, that when he loosened the middle bolt for the dogbone and prodded the bush, the bush just dropped out! He then fitted the new dogbone mount (OE Lemforder one) and he also fitted the ECS Tuning subframe spacer kit to the car. He noticed that the subframe had been moving at some point (probably when one of the subframe bolts snpped months ago) as the subframe has scoring where the bolts sit, which is nicely shown in the video below.

Here is a video of the ECS tuning kit (available in the UK via Awesome GTI for around £15):


Car drives better now and without any knocks. The circular engine mounts pictured further up in this thread are still in my possession, but I might just return them as the ones on the car are fine according to the mechanic. There is a little shake from the car as the revs drop to idle and I reckon it is because these rubber bushings are worn. To change them you would have to drop the subframe (might be difficult to remove the old ones and then press them in whilst on the car). Therefore, it's probably only worth changing them if you are going to replace other bits that can-only-be-changed-with-the subframe-off, like the anti-roll bar and bushes.

Along with this, I had the oil, oil filter and fuel filter changed too. I changed the air filter myself to save on labour costs. I reckon I will try the next service myself, as it seems pretty straightforward.

Thanks for you help guys! Hope someone finds this thread useful.
 
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c_w

Registered User
Can you clarify which bushes you had changed? Was it the two bars with the smaller bush joining them?
 

DJ_26

Registered User
Can you clarify which bushes you had changed? Was it the two bars with the smaller bush joining them?

A new dogbone (pictured below) was fitted which has a new bush fitted in it already.
Rear engine mount.jpg


So in the picture below, it is the bush on the left that is new.

engine mount complete.jpg
 
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