E10 Petrol

S3AMJ

S3AMJ

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A topic for debate....

So they’ve announced that from beginning of next year they are going to introduce E10 Petrol. This is already available in some EU countries.

You will still be able to buy good old E5 but it’ll come at a premium, as if we don’t pay enough for Shell 99. We can assume this will increase.

I don’t know what Octane is going to be available with the new E10 petrol, from a little research it’ll be around 94ron. If they do bring out one higher... could be a good thing. With the increase in Ethanol to 10% they say it’ll keep the engine internally clean thus burning fuel more efficiently, etc.

Those of us running water/meth our engines should generally be cleaner internally anyway ;)

Discuss.......


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ATM petroleum is 66% in tax for every drop...we need to talk about tax I think. BORIS needs to talk about tax because this Brexit thing should have reduced income tax or transaction tax but we have had nothing but talk of TV tax.
 
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According to the government website checker:

GOV.UK E10 Enquiry

E10 Enquiry
check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk
(no idea how accurate the data is)

It suggests that our 1.8T 8L S3 models should be fine to use E10 despite the fact that newer FSi engines released in around 2004 are not compatible. I always put in V-Power or Tesco99, but no doubt these fuels will get even more expensive come September 2021.
 
hydro s3 said:
That doesn't right mate. I've not heard anything of this. So what's happening in September 2021?
Are they reclassified the petrol or something?
Click to expand...

Basically if you look on the handle of the pump (or the pump itself) you’ll see a sticker that says E5 or E10. That means the fuel you’re putting in your car comprises of either 5% or 10% of ethanol. Ethanol was added to unleaded petrol several years back to reduce CO2 emissions from the cars that were filling up with it. In September 2021 all 95RON standard fuel must be E10. That’s what’s changing.

If you buy a premium fuel such as v-power, or Super Unleaded, these fuels do not have to be E10. However they will remain E5.

Not all vehicles are compatible with E10 fuel. The car will run, but over time the increased ethanol content is not good for seals and stuff in your engine. The gov checker has a list of vehicles that are not compatible with E10. If you have one of these cars it’s advisable to fill your car up with super unleaded after Sept 2021 to ensure you’re putting in E5 petrol, and not an E10.

That’s how I understand it anyway.
 
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E5 simply means up to 5%, but there is no E0 rating, so E5 can have 0-5%.

Ref: https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol

I can only run 99RON in my car, and I have a flex fuel sensor. Tesco/Esso 99 has 0% ethanol where I live but shows E5 on the pump as per the link.

E10 as long as there is a decent octane rating should be a positive for boosted cars, in the states a lot of guys are blending 15-30% into regular petrol with excellent results in reducing knock and allowing more timing.
 
It’ll be interesting to see what performance differences are between 95RON E10 vs 99RON E5 (V-Power) if you can map a car to produce the same power or better on E10.

Theory is E10 will burn quicker, less efficient than E5 so that does mean you’ll need to pump in more fuel to get the benefits, obviously in a standard car (not mapped) then it’ll just do less to the gallon. However on a modified car with larger injectors and so on, the E10 will burn cooler allowing for more timing, less knock and a much cleaner burn. Then with the use of water methanol to allow further cooling and increasing the octane rating..... could potentially be a win.

Time will tell.


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Yes, it will be interesting, Easy to log with VCDS and see how much timing is pulled on each cylinder, and how much total timing the car is allowing on each type of fuel. I'll be testing E10 against E5 95RON this way to see.

I suspect that E10 with be low grade ~88RON Octane petrol with the 10% ethanol bring it up to 95RON though. It won't complete with 99RON of any blend, but it may allow more timing and be cooler running than E5 95RON.
 
Allow me to post my stupid thoughts. Could you just not buy a jug of pure ethanol, 99.9 percent. Then pour in around 6 liters with a full tank of gas? Wouldn't that equal e10? 10 percent of fuel tank would be pure ethanol... Lol, please correct me if I'm wrong. I do not know ANYTHING about e85/ethanol gas etc.

Cheers lol
 
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S.Pellegrino said:
Allow me to post my stupid thoughts. Could you just not buy a jug of pure ethanol, 99.9 percent. Then pour in around 6 liters with a full tank of gas? Wouldn't that equal e10? 10 percent of fuel tank would be pure ethanol... Lol, please correct me if I'm wrong. I do not know ANYTHING about e85/ethanol gas etc.

Cheers lol
Click to expand...
Absolutely you can, and people do, especially in areas where you can buy it at the pump. Running E10, adding a few litres to regular (95RON) petrol is a decent octane rise and a lot cheaper than bottles of octane booster or race fuel. HOWEVER running higher amounts than that - Say E30 and above requires a tune (your cars brain needs recalibrated) and often a higher flowing fuel system (injectors/fuel pump and lines that won't degrade) as Ethanol does not have the same calorific value as petrol, meaning you need to burn a lot more of it to make you car run.

Check out this video by VancityAudi on YouTube to see the potential to doing exactly what you are proposing:



and



That said though...

The problem with E10 coming soon at the pumps is its still only 95 octane, so it has no advantages in performance, could get worse fuel economy on many vehicles, is very hard on the fuel system of older cars, the ethanol will separate out if the car is left to sit long periods, or if any moisture gets into the fuel system. So there are potential negatives. I'm just glad that 99RON will still be available!
 
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E5 and E10 represent the max amount of bioethanol in petrol. Ethanol/bioethanol is not as calorific as petrol but RON describes burn rate and not calorific value.

E10 will become the standard for 95 RON in UK from Sept 2021 but RON 97-99 super unleaded (eg VPower) will remain E5 till ~2025

The amount of Bioethanol in E10 is quicker to perish some older composition non-hardened rubber hoses, brass and other alloy couplings/pump components, and metal petrol tanks. It also goes off quicker than E5 as it absorbs more water.

According to reports, the 8L isn’t really affected but early 8P FSIs are.

I sold my 8L many years ago and my current car is E10 capable but I’ll still keep to E5 for as long as I can .
 
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Apparently Shell V power is now 97ron not 99ron
Click to expand...

Where did you find that out PT? If that is the case makes you wonder why we pay the premium of V Power. Get the 95ron from anywhere cheapest and use octane booster to crank it up to 99ron or more, or infact get E10 95ron stuff and use octane booster of some kind. My guessing that would be the best combo.


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audi upgrades
Bill found this out yesterday and went to Shell where they appear to have relabelled the pumps accordingly.... not sure what that actually means in reality as the website still says its 99RON

<tuffty/>
 
Bill found this out yesterday and went to Shell where they appear to have relabelled the pumps accordingly.... not sure what that actually means in reality as the website still says its 99RON
Click to expand...

Hmmmm, like you say it’s still advertised on there website it’s 99Ron, I suppose they are changing all the pumps to say 97Ron before they adjust it on there website...... most disappointing.

The additive that Bill uses VP seems to be the only real option out there. At £21.95 per bottle and that treats 38 litres granted that’s for a 8 point increase, suggests if we still pay the premium for V Power at 97Ron with a bottle of VP we could get anywhere between 99-101Ron with a full tank. Basically around £100 for a every full tank fill up!


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Shell haven’t communicated this and I have t seen the price come down.....

As S3AMJ points out, their website still states 99RON
 
Ok... maybe I need to validate this a little... not a rumour or hearsay.... this image taken from a Shell station local to where Bill and I live (by Bill)
183659091 10158787490508183 9097934766802358379 n


<tuffty/>
 
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@Tuffty - wasn’t doubting you as your knowledge esp of the 8L is incredible and you have huge credibility - my apologies if it came across that way.
 
JohnM100 said:
@Tuffty - wasn’t doubting you as your knowledge esp of the 8L is incredible and you have huge credibility - my apologies if it came across that way.
Click to expand...
All good dude :)

If Shell are going to 97 then I may consider staying on Momentum (which I am currently using as tbh until I have the turbo fitted I don't see the point lol

V-Power was the only thing I would use in my S3 when running the 20v... purely due to its being proven to be consistent on the dyno on cars I have been involved with... The only real concern with supermarket fuel is whether or not its of a consistent quality...

I have seen the results of Momentum on the dyno of course and it does work... but there is just that niggle it being a 'good enough' fuel rather than consistently the better fuel...

I suspect when I start tuning the turbo installation it will be on Momentum anyway as thats the closest station to me these days.... and as I don't intend to push the VR like I did with the 20v then hopefully settling on the Tesco stuff should work out ok...

Shame really if Shell are dropping 99ron though

<tuffty/>
 
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audi upgrades
Must be my lucky day - went to a Shell station on my commute and they are still on VPower 99 - it’s not a quiet garage but reading the pump counters, the ratio of 95 to 99 pumped is about 4.5:1

I don’t deny this is happening but curious how Shell are rolling this out across the country - certainly still keeping it low key and would expect most garages with decent throughput to take only a week or two to change over.

Petrol companies used to buy local base stock and then add their own tinctures/detergents. If still the case then mine would most likely be refined at Fawley.
 
Little update on this 97ron sighting... turns out the Shell garage had just been made over with all new signage and for whatever random reason they were sent the wrong pump labels or some shizz like that (obvs the contractors must have just fitted them regardless)... the fuel is still 99ron!!!... phew :D

<tuffty/>
 
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Decided to revive this thread,

I am currently in France and here they offer either 95 or 98 petrol. And E85 ofcourse. The 95 petrol is E10. There is a sticker on the pump of the 95 that it has 10 percent Ethanol/E10. 98 doesn't have any Ethanol sticker. 95 E10 is about 12 cents cheaper per litre of petrol.

I did pump up half a tank with 95/E10 (other half was still 98). Would E10/95 safe to run? Currently running stock fuel system except for Deatschwerks DW65 In Tank Fuel pump. I see some debate about Ethanol corroding the fuel system...

Any ideas?

Cheers guys
S.Pellegrino
 
hydro s3 said:
Don't see why once in a while would be a problem. Was ur choice to go with the 95 because its 12 cents cheaper?
Click to expand...
Yes, I've been driving a lot since arriving in France last week. I clocked 600 miles in the past 3 days so if I could save 4 quid everytime filling up that would be nice.

But not if it's detrimental to the car
 
Little update

So the tank of half 98 and the other half 95/E10 was filled up to the top with 95/E10 after it hit the halfway mark. I get the feeling that 95/E10 may consume more/poorer fuel mileage.

On the tank of half 98 and half 95/E10 I was able to do 550km with the needle just under the halfway mark

On the tank of 1/4 98 and 3/4 95/E10 I did 550km but the needle was just above a quarter tank of petrol.

Both trips were the same route, same amount of time, same driving style (SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOW acceleration and feathering the throttle). Quite interesting and may be debatable. Oh how I wish my car could run on E85, stuff is 50 pence a litre!!! God that would be light on my wallet lol
 
I stopped at a Sainsbury's near Torquay the other day and to my surprise the price was about 6p cheaper than everywhere else, and on the 95 octane pump there was an E10 rating... Was driving the wife's A3 so thought id give it a go. Car ran just fine, with no notable reduction in performance, but did see a drop in fuel economy by about 4mpg (motorway driving on the M5/M6). Was interesting to see its been rolled out now, and seems to run just fine. I guess that will initially see our fuel prices drop on E10 95RON when it becomes the standard in September, but I suspect that won't be a savings for long as ,most people won't realise there's any difference.
 
Hi guys and gals, complete newbie here and i know nothing about cars. I've got a 2004 A3 (petrol) but want to know if it will be compatible with the new E10 petrol coming out soon. Can anybody help? There must be hundreds of others in the same boat as me. Isn't there?
 
GaryLarson said:
Hi guys and gals, complete newbie here and i know nothing about cars. I've got a 2004 A3 (petrol) but want to know if it will be compatible with the new E10 petrol coming out soon. Can anybody help? There must be hundreds of others in the same boat as me. Isn't there?
Click to expand...

This is a question for the 8P section but Some 1.6 & 2.0 FSI 8P chassis cars aren’t compatible. Check here:

www.gov.uk

Check if your vehicle can run on E10 petrol

Check if you can use E10 petrol in your car, motorcycle or moped - what information you need to check, what to do if you’re not sure
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
JohnM100 said:
This is a question for the 8P section but Some 1.6 & 2.0 FSI 8P chassis cars aren’t compatible. Check here:

www.gov.uk

Check if your vehicle can run on E10 petrol

Check if you can use E10 petrol in your car, motorcycle or moped - what information you need to check, what to do if you’re not sure
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
Click to expand...
Sorry, like i said "I know nothing about cars". I went to the gov.uk site and they say
E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Audi petrol driven vehicles, excluding the following vehicles:

  • Audi A3 1.6 FSI, model year 2004
Click to expand...
but is my car FSI or not? How do i tell? Should i post this in the correct forum?
 
Your car will be FSI. ie direct fuel injection. If it’s 1.6 or 2.0 and in that year range then not compatible but would be ok as a one-off tank fill but not for regular fill ups.
 
JohnM100 said:
Your car will be FSI. ie direct fuel injection. If it’s 1.6 or 2.0 and in that year range then not compatible but would be ok as a one-off tank fill but not for regular fill ups.
Click to expand...
Thanks John. It's a 1.6. That's all i wanted to know so thank you very, very much for answering my question and may your God go with you (Dave Allen, not me). Thanks again, Dave (not really GaryLarson). There wre too many emojis/smilies to chose from so I just went with a whale - :whale:.
 
Had to do a tank of E10 last night, was down to just over the red and no 99 available.

So far no noticeable difference but I do mostly potter about rather than drive like a loon, either way just glad I can get to work.
 
S3AMJ said:
A topic for debate....

So they’ve announced that from beginning of next year they are going to introduce E10 Petrol. This is already available in some EU countries.

You will still be able to buy good old E5 but it’ll come at a premium, as if we don’t pay enough for Shell 99. We can assume this will increase.

I don’t know what Octane is going to be available with the new E10 petrol, from a little research it’ll be around 94ron. If they do bring out one higher... could be a good thing. With the increase in Ethanol to 10% they say it’ll keep the engine internally clean thus burning fuel more efficiently, etc.

Those of us running water/meth our engines should generally be cleaner internally anyway ;)

Discuss.......


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Click to expand...
Our beloved Audi 8l 1.8T S3 has become rather unwell since my wife has been running it on E10 due to economic factors. We have used Shell V-Power and it ran like a dream, but the fuel cost became prohibitive, so my wife, trying to budget sensibly and buy fuel more affordably for us as a family, started using E10 as we were advised the car should be fine on it. Any thing but, the fuel economy tanked, it became noisy and now we seem to have costly engine problems. With hindsight, this was most certainly a false economy. I have another cherished petrol fuelled car, and there's absolutely no way I'm running that on E10 after this horrendous experience. I've just reduced my use of that car.
 
These 1.8t 210, 225, 243 are not even ok on normal 95 unleaded, why would you believe someone telling you e10 is okay?
 
Sad news! There was a lot of scare mongering to start with, even had the staff asking should I be putting E10 in my work car…… it was my work car so I didn’t really car. However I’ve never put it into my S3, granted I wouldn’t anyway due to it needing 99 Ron fuel to run properly as it’s mapped for that. I have on the very odd occasion used E10 in my A3 3.2 Quattro, only because there wasn’t any other fuel available. I wouldn’t make a habit of it though, the odd 1 tank every 10 won’t hurt. What engine damage has been caused by running your S3 on E10 I’m curious.


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Having put an ethanol content sensor in my RS3, I can tell you guys that Tesco momentum 99 Ron (E5) is between 8 and 9% ethanol.
 
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