Dual vs. single mass clutch kit?

Keeno

Spooly Spooly Boosty Boosty!
I can get a brand new LUK standard dual mass flywheel and clutch for £240.

BUT

Is the stage 1 ECS kit (lightweight single mass flywheel, 228mm clutch) worth the extra £90 over the LUK kit?

Bit unsure on the ECS kit as I've been cautioned against mating a flywheel and clutch from different manufacturers...
 

Matt82

Registered User
any idea of the brand of a typical conventional flywheel? it is just a lump of metal afterall
 

Keeno

Spooly Spooly Boosty Boosty!
That's what I thought! What's to sya that if I only replaced the clutch not the fly, I could end up with two different brands...
 

mat_c

Registered User
Apologies if I'm stating the obvious!

SMF are a lump of metal. DMF are two masses attached by springs to absorb torsional oscillation. If you replace a DMF with an SMF you will putting more strain on clutch plate and transmission.

DMF are mainly there to improve 'driver comfort', but I've heard many stories of DMF to SMF conversions buggering plates & box.

This may not apply to a petrol Audi A3 - I'm not an expert.
 

Keeno

Spooly Spooly Boosty Boosty!
I couldn't say to be honest. I've read good things about the ECS kit in both the 10lb and 20.5lb guises. Both come with a new, bigger pressure and clutch plates.

Having said that, I can't really afford a new 'box...
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
I went for the ECS Stage 1 (G60 SM flywheel) and uprated clutch. I put320bhp and 300lbft through mine and am yet to have any problems. My brothers is the same - No issues.

Dual mass are expensive and if you can drive properly, you wont notice the driver comfort aspect either to be honest.

if you want OEM, then just go for OEM. If you want something a little more, for a little more, then go for the ECS kit (or something similar).

Rich
 

kachnak

Registered User
Hello,
I kill my clutch because I was stupid and start on 7000rpm in 1/4 mile race.
Now my car is not so fast as was when I bought it.
Sometimes I see that this clutch is slipping on 5th gear.
So I would like replace it and looking for best solution.
I need car every day and 90% I use it in city, but I would like go to lot of 1/4 races. I would like also remap to 260bhp next year.
Therefore I am looking for better clutch as standard.

Anybody know what from this two is better kit for me please?
30-4229HF (£890.00)
Sachs Performance Clutch Kit & Jabba Flywheel (1.8T 6-Speed 02M) (£990.00)

Thank you
 

kachnak

Registered User
but lot off clutch manufactors make single mass flywheel so I think there must be also some plus for it.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Single mass is obviously lighter and less complicated than dual mass.... its a more direct way to connect the clutch to the gearbox.... problems with single mass tend to revolve around chattering from the gearbox as more vibration is transmitted through the system and you need to be careful with clutch/flywheel combos from different manufacturers as they sometimes lead to long pedals and clutches that don't engage or disengage properly... other issues revolve around drivability as mentioned... can make the clutch feel very stop/start in traffic and uprated clutches tend to be heavier at the pedal...

The clutch setup I currently have was suggested by a guy from SeatCupra.net who has an Audi TT with over 450bhp and regularly does 1/4 mile stuff with it...

Consists of an LuK DM flywheel, LuK clutch cover and Sachs motorsport 4 puck paddle plate... light as a feather on operation with a very very small amount of occasional judder at the last bit of take up when driving normally else when giving it some its like an anvil coming down and just bites...

I have yet to do a full launch from it but the guy on SCN went from this setup to a SM flywheel setup and hated it... he is now running the same as me again...

<tuffty/>
 

AudiS3-Turbo

Registered User
I run a single mass,and its not soft and very light and grips well off the line,but i can confirm as said above you do get gearbox chatter at idle with load on engine ie ac,but thats it and at higher speeds on heavy throttle you do get light cabin vibration.

I bought the car with this in,if it pops i probably will look to go back to DM depending on the cost,but its not noticeable.
 

kachnak

Registered User
OK. Thank you boys. So I will use my dual mass flywheel and buy only sachs plate, cover and bearing.
Sachs SRE Performance SRE clutch cover + SRE Performance clutch disc at a special rate.** - TTNET - Sachs Performance Parts (€670.00)

One more question. When will by my clutch taken out, how I can see if my dual mass flywheel need replace or not?
Is it possible do some test? Or it is K.O., if I will feel very big vibrations?

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/members/tufftybloke/tufftybloke: do you have serial number of your LUK flywheel?
 
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<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Sure thats the right one? page suggests its for an A3... some A3 clutches are smaller... S3 clutch is 240mm...

The clutch plate I have is this one...
Rigid clutch disc with sintered metal plates - TTNET - Sachs Performance Parts

As for the flywheel, its the std part for the S3, I don't have a part number to hand I am afraid... I just went into GSF and said I wanted a DM flywheel for my S3 and they gave me one... the clutch cover I have is part of a std LuK clutch too...

If you buy a clutch, make sure its designed for the std/OEM DM flywheel as some manufacturers supply different clutches for OEM DM flywheels and their own single mass ones...

One other thing to remember is that DM flywheels typically come with rigid clutch plates while single mass typically use sprung clutch plates..

<tuffty/>
 

kachnak

Registered User
I sent question to sachs if it can be fitted to my S3. And there is written that this clutch kit is suitable for stock flywheel and bearing.
Last comment in your 4 puck paddle plate is that disc is not recommended for street cars. Do you use your car only for race? Or is possible use this plate on streets as standard plate?
I read somewhere that with 4 puck paddle plate is not possible continuously start.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
I sent question to sachs if it can be fitted to my S3. And there is written that this clutch kit is suitable for stock flywheel and bearing.
Last comment in your 4 puck paddle plate is that disc is not recommended for street cars. Do you use your car only for race? Or is possible use this plate on streets as standard plate?
I read somewhere that with 4 puck paddle plate is not possible continuously start.

I have no probs with it at all.... of course its not been in long so no idea how long it will last, time will tell of course but I have no probs using mine in everyday traffic including commuter traffic...

Its not advise to hold the car on the clutch from what I have heard as it will wear more etc but as long as you don't ride the clutch it should be fine...

My car is a daily runner that I use to drive to work and back with a combination of country roads, steepish hills and cross city commuter stop/start driving... the clutch is light in operation but does grab very well (I have stalled the car a couple of times pulling away a bit quick from junctions... not recommended lol...)

<tuffty/>
 

daveeeeee

Registered User
Dude i would love to know where you can get hold of a Dual mass fly and clutch for £240 where ever i look its £300 + for the fly alone

cheers
 

kachnak

Registered User
It think daveeeeee reply to first massage in this thread.

Today I recieve answer from sachs that SRE organic kit, what I pastle here, is suitable for APY S3, so after pay-day in my factory I will order one :)
 

Welly

335D Driver :-)
I went from DM to SM on my A3 at clutch change time.... I didn't notice any difference in the drive-ability at all, and performance was definitely better.

I will be going SM on my S3 when the clutch needs changing.
 

Chris_38

Registered User
I went for the ECS Stage 1 (G60 SM flywheel) and uprated clutch. I put320bhp and 300lbft through mine and am yet to have any problems. My brothers is the same - No issues.

Dual mass are expensive and if you can drive properly, you wont notice the driver comfort aspect either to be honest.

if you want OEM, then just go for OEM. If you want something a little more, for a little more, then go for the ECS kit (or something similar).

Rich
Morning boys jus been looking into this DMF to SMF I've done it an its like the biting point is on the floor an I can't bleed it up, does anyone no if I have to change the slave cylinder cuz the pushrods not long enough ?
 

vanilla_ice

Registered User
Sachs SRE 520+Nm clutch is home :) after new year will be fitted to car with stock Dual Mass flywheel and new sachs bearing.

Clutch Kit: ZF SACHS Performance clutch - Power Clutch - Art# 000827 999980 - TTNET - Sachs Performance Parts

spojka.jpg
I'm not sure if you are still an active member, but any feedback on this setup?

Does anyone else use the above SACHS clutch and pressure plate? I would like to know if I could get away with a standard (SACHS) pressure plate, as @<tuffty/> does with his setup.

Thanks.
 

vanilla_ice

Registered User
Thanks tuffty. Sorry if my question was unclear.

I would like to know if the 'performance' clutch above will work with a standard SACHS cover plate. The SACHS web catalog suggests both the 4 puck and performance clutch should be used with a 'performance' cover plate only.

I am not doubting that your own setup works, just whether the performance clutch can also work with a standard cover plate.

I am all for tried and tested, but I gather your setup can take some getting used to and I don't plan to go beyond K04-023 power levels.

Maybe stick to bog standard?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
clutch wear is subjective... all really depends on how you drive regardless of power... I could easily nuke my clutch in no time if I was an animal..

Std should be fine providing you are not launching the car all over the place or trying to pretend you can change gear as quick as a DSG box...

Problem with uprated clutches is they tend to be stiffer in use... the friction plates tend to be a little more tolerant of heat but the clamping force (especially on organic plates) is the 'uprated' bit and thats in the cover plate

<tuffty/>
 

vanilla_ice

Registered User
clutch wear is subjective... all really depends on how you drive regardless of power... I could easily nuke my clutch in no time if I was an animal..

Std should be fine providing you are not launching the car all over the place or trying to pretend you can change gear as quick as a DSG box...

Problem with uprated clutches is they tend to be stiffer in use... the friction plates tend to be a little more tolerant of heat but the clamping force (especially on organic plates) is the 'uprated' bit and thats in the cover plate

<tuffty/>

Forgive my ignorance on this, but would the paddle be able to accommodate more spirited driving with stg1/stg2 levels of power, and potentially last longer than OEM?

The reason I ask is that my power level is well within it's capabilities, plus I don't launch.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Forgive my ignorance on this, but would the paddle be able to accommodate more spirited driving with stg1/stg2 levels of power, and potentially last longer than OEM?

The reason I ask is that my power level is well within it's capabilities, plus I don't launch.
You could argue that... cerametallic plates do wear more quickly than organic but would potentially provide more positive engagement for longer... the organic may well out last the cerametallic if driven sensibly but the cerametallic will outlast the organic if abused a bit...

Its a bit swings and roundabouts tbh hence the 'subjective' part...

<tuffty/>
 

vanilla_ice

Registered User
Thank you. My current clutch has so far lasted 50K of me driving with Stage1 and still has 'some' life left, but the bite point is getting higher.

My level of tune will only ever be marginally increasing , so standard is probably all I will ever 'need'.

That said, it would be nice to have the paddle clutch to allow me to use the power more and be less sympathetic as and when then mood takes me.

Subjective indeed!
 
Hi all, I have an Audi A3 2001 , if not long bought it, its s lil pocket rocket 230bhp, but clutch has gone, so I was goin to put new clutch on I see performance one on ebay for 140 but my dads friend said it would cost 800 for dual mass flywheel kit, but after lookin it up it's a conversion, well i dont want to fecking convert it lol i just want a half decent cheap clutch for it, so any ideas or help please be much appreciated
Thanks
 
I've not run a single mass set up myself but I've read a lot of people say there is a lot of vibrations from one. Dont think personally I'd run one. Stick to a dual mass one. It will probably £400/£450 for the parts alone and then labour on top unless you can do it urself.
 
I run a 6kg Single Mass Lightweight Flywheel. G60 flywheel with a VR6 clutch and pressure plate for up to 450nm.

The pedal feel is really light its retarded. Whenever I go to drive in the project car for the first time in a week, my foot literally slams into the back because its so light. I am used to heavy clutch pedal feel as I daily drive a Diesel Corsa and a Diesel VW Caddy.

Moving off from a standstill does take some getting used to, you'll need to feed the car some more revs. Starting up from a hill can be annoying. Driving in a traffic jam can be annoying. Especially if its at a crawling pace.

Car doesn't cannot ''idle drive'' in 1st gear. What I mean is drive around at 850 rpm (idle rpm) while the car is in 1st gear. Car just shudders, in traffic jams that can be particularly annoying.
DarksideDevelopements offers a kit for the 1.8T, 400 quid I believe it is
 
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