DSG Swap in S3

[tomsko]

I'm playing with the idea of DSG swapping my S3 during the long next winter. It seems like DQ500 gearbox would be a good fit and support over 600nm(Not sure of the actual limit since this this is the VW rating), or DQ250 that VW rates at 400nm. I think I will keep the engine under 500nm because I want to keep the early spool, so DQ250 might actually do it if anyone can confirm it would hold 500nm with some abuse (launches).

Controlling and fitting the unit seems to be quite easy, but I might want to also include the whole new haldex system with rear diff. not sure if necessary?

Does anyone know if all Golf 7's with the 7-speed DSG are the DQ500?

 

[S3AMJ]

From research I did a long while back, the DQ250 is made from chocolate. The DQ500 is a much better box. As for mating up to the existing Gen1 haldex system, not sure. I suspect it’s possible, but like all things some fabrication work and custom parts are involved.


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[tomsko]

From research I did a long while back, the DQ250 is made from chocolate. The DQ500 is a much better box. As for mating up to the existing Gen1 haldex system, not sure. I suspect it’s possible, but like all things some fabrication work and custom parts are involved.


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Thanks! So DQ500 it is. Sure fabrication is required, which would be cheap from where I'm from. And that is the easy and inexpensive part from so just trying to make a sense of which Haldex option is better cost/time/reliability wise.

So DQ500 from any VW T5 / T6 2,0 TDI is the same as in the new 5cyl TT-RS/RS3?! If so it's ludicrous people are not swapping them everywhere!

 

[<tuffty/>]

Needs to be pre 2008 I believe as there is a canbus protocol change that ME7 won't be able to communicate with

<tuffty/>

 

[tomsko]

Needs to be pre 2008 I believe as there is a canbus protocol change that ME7 won't be able to communicate with

<tuffty/>

Thanks that's a good tip. Is there any resource you can point me to to learn more?
But aither way I must go with Ignitron ECU in this case. Would that open up the communication?
Edit: VW introduced the DQ500 only in 2010 according to Wiki

 

[<tuffty/>]

I don't know much about them other than that tbh... I have no interest in DSG personally but I know ignitron supports the same early protocol and not the later one at this time

<tuffty/>

 

[Tj 0785]

Has @Sam_ done the dsg conversion not sure on the haldex though

 

[tomsko]

From research I did a long while back, the DQ250 is made from chocolate. The DQ500 is a much better box. As for mating up to the existing Gen1 haldex system, not sure. I suspect it’s possible, but like all things some fabrication work and custom parts are involved.


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So it turns out DQ250 actually is very strong and takes 650nm with proper cooling. The best fits are Golf mk6R, Audi S3/TTS 2005-2011 and Ignitron ECU will communicate with them.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Its a pity DSG boxes are unreliable...

Still... should be a few about these days as they appear to be popular

<tuffty/>

 

[Tj 0785]

From research I did a long while back, the DQ250 is made from chocolate. The DQ500 is a much better box. As for mating up to the existing Gen1 haldex system, not sure. I suspect it’s possible, but like all things some fabrication work and custom parts are involved.


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The tt 8n dsg should mate up fairly easily I’d imagine I thought about instead of just buying a engine buying a donor tt instead and swapping to a dsg aswell but decided against it

 

[S3AMJ]

The tt 8n dsg should mate up fairly easily I’d imagine I thought about instead of just buying a engine buying a donor tt instead and swapping to a dsg aswell but decided against it

I was referring to the DQ500 mate. Sorry it’s been a long day.


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[Tj 0785]

So it's been almost a year since I've updated this thread and not a huge amount has happened in that time other than a lot of nappy changes and hacking the R36 around. The S3 has been unregistered (equivalent of SORN) since August and hasn't really moved since. However, I finally got some cash to throw at the car and I bought this...

A DQ500 from a petrol Tiguan (NZT code) + transfer box, driveshafts, shifter and starter motor.

I had originally intended on using the 02M and fitting all the usual strengthening parts (the 4th gear support, billet input shaft insert, brace, etc) and a Wavetrac diff but the idea of a DSG conversion had always appealed to me. The DQ500 (DSG) and MQ500 (manual) are the strongest transverse boxes you can get currently for the platform so it made sense - they are used on the RS3, TTRS, Tiguan, Q3 and T5 (I think). Some of the RS3, TTRS and R3x turbo guys are using them with upwards of genuine 1000nm+ without issue on the original clutch packs. I don't think I'll get near that. Another factor was cost; I picked up this DQ500, driveshafts, shifter and starter from a Tiguan with a only 23,000 miles on it for less than the cost of a decent gearbox rebuild over here and even then I'd still potentially end up with a weak box. I'm going to be getting the other conversion parts from a guy called Andreas Teufner from Austria who is like the DQ500/MQ500 conversion expert. I'll need to make custom shafts (S3 outer, Tiguan inner, custom shaft), custom engine mounts, a CAN bus conversion box, and the software for the ME7.5 to run it. One challenge is going to be working out how to get the paddles working as Andreas hasn't managed that yet. The Mk4 R32 and 8N TT 3.2s that came with the DSG didn't use CAN for the paddles but later models do so it might be a case of trial and error and a lot of fiddling. We'll see! I'm hoping to order the conversion parts in the next few weeks and then I can finally think about getting the engine in the car. It's been way too long.

Might be worth looking at his thread or messaging him for some info

 

[S3AMJ]

So it turns out DQ250 actually is very strong and takes 650nm with proper cooling. The best fits are Golf mk6R, Audi S3/TTS 2005-2011 and Ignitron ECU will communicate with them.

Interesting.... because I was under the impression anything above 450nm and it wouldn’t last very long


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[S3AMJ]

Just get this
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/173787841974


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[tomsko]

Just get this
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/173787841974


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Haha that's one pretty amazing kit!

 

[Sam_]

I've not actually got mine running yet but others have done it with success. It's possible on the ME7.5 but there are better options now. ECUMaster EMU Black can communicate with the DQ250 and DQ500. Ignitron could only do the DQ250 when I checked. They were so slow to reply to emails though which didn't fill me with confidence when it came to getting support later. I ended up going with the ECUMaster as there's another guy with an R30 turbo doing the same conversion into an S3 8L so I can pester him with issues. I'd recommend doing the DQ500 if you're going to bother. It's a stronger box and and with a decent tune can handle 800-1000nm with ease. If you want a fairly bullet proof manual then the 6 speed MQ500 can be fitted also. From what I've seen though, these do suffer issues with the synchros with heavy abuse. It also needs custom parts.

I chose to go with the DQ500 from a Tiguan. I got an NZT petrol box with 23k on it for a great price as it doesn't have the "RS" tax but is almost identical to the RS3/TTRS box. Make sure you get a box that's pre 2013 if you can otherwise you'll need to get the immobilizer coded out on the mechatronic somehow.

Essentially to do the conversion you're going to need:
- Tiguan or Q3 gearbox - preferably petrol for the better ratios
- Custom mounts (dog bone and gearbox)
- Custom driveshafts (Tiguan inner CV, S3 outer CV and custom shaft) - the inner CV for the right hand driveshaft is better sourced from the manual as it's a proper ball type joint rather than tripod
- Tiguan flywheel
- Tiguan shifter
- Tiguan starter motor
- Wiring plug for the mechatronics
- Wiring plug for the shifter (the cable simply handles park)
- Adapter to use ABS sensor for vehicle speed

Most of these parts can be source from https://www.facebook.com/andreas.teufner who's done a few conversions now.

The wiring itself is fairly simple - the box just needs power and CAN high / low. Same for the shifter. I've not got this far yet though. I still need to fit the engine and box.

The DQ500 is a heavy thing but as Boris said "Heavy is good, heavy is realiable"

Its a pity DSG boxes are unreliable...

They did get that image initially but most of that is down to the dry clutch DQ200 box which can handle about 10nm.

 

[Sam_]

Just get this
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/173787841974

Wait and get the "DAZA" all alloy latest revision when prices come down. That thing is epic.

 

[tomsko]

I've not actually got mine running yet but others have done it with success. It's possible on the ME7.5 but there are better options now. ECUMaster EMU Black can communicate with the DQ250 and DQ500. Ignitron could only do the DQ250 when I checked. They were so slow to reply to emails though which didn't fill me with confidence when it came to getting support later. I ended up going with the ECUMaster as there's another guy with an R30 turbo doing the same conversion into an S3 8L so I can pester him with issues. I'd recommend doing the DQ500 if you're going to bother. It's a stronger box and and with a decent tune can handle 800-1000nm with ease. If you want a fairly bullet proof manual then the 6 speed MQ500 can be fitted also. From what I've seen though, these do suffer issues with the synchros with heavy abuse. It also needs custom parts.

I chose to go with the DQ500 from a Tiguan. I got an NZT petrol box with 23k on it for a great price as it doesn't have the "RS" tax but is almost identical to the RS3/TTRS box. Make sure you get a box that's pre 2013 if you can otherwise you'll need to get the immobilizer coded out on the mechatronic somehow.

Essentially to do the conversion you're going to need:
- Tiguan or Q3 gearbox - preferably petrol for the better ratios
- Custom mounts (dog bone and gearbox)
- Custom driveshafts (Tiguan inner CV, S3 outer CV and custom shaft) - the inner CV for the right hand driveshaft is better sourced from the manual as it's a proper ball type joint rather than tripod
- Tiguan flywheel
- Tiguan shifter
- Tiguan starter motor
- Wiring plug for the mechatronics
- Wiring plug for the shifter (the cable simply handles park)
- Adapter to use ABS sensor for vehicle speed

Most of these parts can be source from https://www.facebook.com/andreas.teufner who's done a few conversions now.

The wiring itself is fairly simple - the box just needs power and CAN high / low. Same for the shifter. I've not got this far yet though. I still need to fit the engine and box.

The DQ500 is a heavy thing but as Boris said "Heavy is good, heavy is realiable"



They did get that image initially but most of that is down to the dry clutch DQ200 box which can handle about 10nm.

Thanks Sam! You just saved me a ton of time on research and trial & error. I believe 800nm to be a bit of an overhkill for my needs. As I would probably be good with 600nm, maybe DQ250 is a better choice? Do you know what cars other than Golf6R, S3 & TTS have a good fit DQ250?

 

[Sam_]

Thanks Sam! You just saved me a ton of time on research and trial & error. I believe 800nm to be a bit of an overhkill for my needs. As I would probably be good with 600nm, maybe DQ250 is a better choice? Do you know what cars other than Golf6R, S3 & TTS have a good fit DQ250?

I would personally just go straight to the DQ500. It's not going to be any cheaper to run the DQ250 really.

 

[tomsko]

I would personally just go straight to the DQ500. It's not going to be any cheaper to run the DQ250 really.

Thanks Sam, that makes sense.
Will either 2.0TSI Tiguan work? I want the 7-speed correct?

 

[Sam_]

Thanks Sam, that makes sense.
Will either 2.0TSI Tiguan work? I want the 7-speed correct?

Yep, don't get the old 6 speed auto, it's a dog. Ideally you want pre-2013 and from a petrol model.

 

[Prawn]

All this DSG talk is pretty interesting stuff.

Are there any standalone controllers that'll run a DSG box? or do they all need to fully integrate to the engine ECU?

Sounds like it'll cost a fair bit to get one in and running, but I reckon it'd still end up MILES cheaper than any full sequential setup.

 

[S3AMJ]

but I reckon it'd still end up MILES cheaper than any full sequential setup.

and quieter!




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[<tuffty/>]

All this DSG talk is pretty interesting stuff.

Are there any standalone controllers that'll run a DSG box? or do they all need to fully integrate to the engine ECU?

Sounds like it'll cost a fair bit to get one in and running, but I reckon it'd still end up MILES cheaper than any full sequential setup.

http://www.pparts.net/dp-dsg-controller-audi-seat-skoda-vw-18-20vt-engines

Better off junking the emerald, go DBW and fit an Ignitron

<tuffty/>

 

[Prawn]

http://www.pparts.net/dp-dsg-controller-audi-seat-skoda-vw-18-20vt-engines

Better off junking the emerald, go DBW and fit an Ignitron

<tuffty/>

Don't tempt me!

It's just the integration to the car loom I'm unure of with the 7.5 engine loom swap.

Given the resale value of the K6 it's genuinely something I'd consider at some point. Especially if there was a potential future DSG option and flappy paddles

 

[Sam_]

There are a few standalone controllers but they are usually either mega money or there's people like Adrenaline motorsport that won't even sell theirs. I didn't really want to spend loads or have a kind of "piggy back" controller anyway.

I'm not sure how the Ignitron works but with the ECUMaster you can hook up your own paddles or buttons for shifting. It doesn't have to be done via CAN bus which makes life easier. I'd imagine Ignitron would have got the DQ500 working by now?

 

[baliszoft]

I'd imagine Ignitron would have got the DQ500 working by now?

To be the honest we could not test DQ500, yet. It is due to the lack of DQ500 equipped port injected engines in our vicinity.
Ignitron ECU supports the old V4.x CAN protocol (at the moment), which to the best of my knowledge is used by pre 2008 cars (not impossible that a few models after 2008 still use it). Any transmission control units should work with the Ignitron ECU, which use the V4.x protocol, but i am afraid that these are all (or mainly) pre 2008 models. I may be wrong. This is the reason why Ignitron ECU is not "advertised" to be compatible with DQ500 at the moment. The latest V6.x protocol is about to be implemented in a future firmware release.

 

[JonnyDerv]

I’d assume you’d have to really like DSG to want to do this conversion as I can only imagine it’s a hefty pull on the bank balance. Sam didn’t mention anything about transfer box, propshaft, rear diff etc, I’m assuming these are able to cope with running the DSG and the transfer box will mate up somehow?

 

[Sam_]

DSG gets a bad rep mainly from the issues with the DQ200 which is the naff dry 7 speed box. It's undeniable that the newer boxes are pretty impressive in terms of strength and performance. Information I've seen suggests they can change gear in 6ms! While they aren't as involved as a manual, they also aren't as dull as a traditional auto; you still have 7 gears you can "manually" shift when you want to.

The propshaft, rear diff, haldex etc can all remain from the S3. The transfer box needs to be from the DQ500 or MQ500. The DQ500 transfer box is much meatier than those from the 02M, 02Q or DQ250. These gearboxes and transfer boxes are dealing with very powerful TTRS' and RS3's around the world and don't seem to have many issues compared to how 02M's cope (or don't cope) with big power.

- 02M top left, 02Q/DQ250 bottom left, 0A5/MQ500/DQ500 attached to the gearbox (an MQ500)

The cost is definitely a factor, as is time. The thing for me was getting an 02M "built" with a diff was going to cost not far off what the DQ500 and conversion parts cost and I was getting a very low km box from a Tiguan (hardly a performance vehicle). Getting the 02M built with all the bits to try and keep it in one piece was going to be $2,500 in labour alone. Then factor in the purchase of a diff (~$1,500), ARP ring gear bolts ($240), 4th gear support ($250), billet shaft insert ($100), end brace ($200) ... it soon adds up too. Then you're left with a box that "should be stay together" with the power. Not to mention the weaker transfer box.

I did consider going down the MQ500 route but that's actually a more expensive swap when you consider you still need the custom mounts and shafts but you also need an expensive custom Sachs clutch too.

 

[JonnyDerv]

Very interesting Sam, the picture illustrates quite the difference between them!

 

[Warsuperior]

I scored DQ250 from 2011 Golf R VERY VERY VERY cheap lets say approx 1/20th of price of working box
Fully working, leaks oil between seals(driven to rock, easy fix) when running. 90 000km driven. Came with bewel box too. Its basically brand new
I use Ignitron to control it and I have list that a3 8p could be source for parts.

I want to put it in my S3 coming year but I need a list for all parts so if anyone can help me, I would be ever grateful

Mostly Im wondering do I need a new brake pedal and bracket or just use old and change it to big paddle type?
And from what cars I can try to find the paddle shift steering wheel?

My stroker engine demands DSG now

 

[Darrell]

I'm looking at fitting dq500 to my 8l s3 now due to stripping 4th gear, Sam, is ignitron nearly ready to support the dq500 box yet?

 

[Bluepower]

I'm looking at fitting dq500 to my 8l s3 now due to stripping 4th gear, Sam, is ignitron nearly ready to support the dq500 box yet?

Need a DQ500?? please message me for details....

 

[baliszoft]

I'm looking at fitting dq500 to my 8l s3 now due to stripping 4th gear, Sam, is ignitron nearly ready to support the dq500 box yet?

Hi! Yes. DSG specific firmware (which makes the DSG DQ250 and DQ500 work just like as OEM) is coming this spring.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Brian is working on the DSG implementation in Ignitron firmware at the moment... not sure how close to a release it is but its working on his test car so far

<tuffty/>

 

[<tuffty/>]

...beat me to it lol

<tuffty/>

 

[stg]

hello i am ready to make a conversion and i want ask i f the dq500 is compatible with the rear diferrential haldex oav from a3 8p

 

[Alexlex1996]

hi guys i'm looking for information on dq500 with me7.5 ... i'm diperato i don't know where to look ... i mounted dq500 on s3 8l coded ecu so i communicate with the engine at least i think ... i can do the diagniosi to the gearbox that does not communicate with the saddlebag lanche in the displai the gears flash and the selector flashes ... the selector comes from a golf 7 may not be compatible with can communication?