Do i dont or dont i forge my engine

[Dohs3]

Hi i have just sold my land rover toy so now im looking for a new project and forging the engine on my 2007 bhz s3 seems like the way i want to go at the moment its stage 1 map induction kit forge recurc vavle decat down pipe so the idea is wosneer pistions pec rods new bearings ect while the engine is apart tte 480 turbo apr fuel pump upgrafe lpgp forge or airtec intercooler and a map to suit the mods possible r tec or someone similar who has a good rep i no im not gonna do it over a weekend (i wish) but ive seen a few treads on here when people have done so just a few poonter and advise of people who have done it or thinking about doing it themself will be helpful i will be doing stuff like anti lift kit brakes at the dame time just want a bit of advise on parts and what you guys recomed and hopefully get some good pics and updates on progress aswell

 

[KieranS3]

I'd take the money I'd be spend on forging it and doing brakes (maybe £8k?), sell the car and buy something newer and faster.

 

[aqibi2000]

Forge it

 

[Dohs3]

Every body i talk to say do it i no there will be faster qwicker cars like a tuned golf r etc but i do love the s3 and even at stage 1 it shocks a few cars which i like

 

[leshkin]

If you have the funds, desire to go to that level of tune and like your current S3 then I'd say forge away! Seeing surprised owner's faces of newer and faster cars is priceless as you sail by Saying that, it's not going to be cheap or trouble-free, so expect some pain.

You will absolutely need better brakes and suspension to deal with the projected level of power, so I would sort that out first - nothing is worse than under-steering into a hedge in a 480bhp car, while frantically trying to stomp on a wooden brake pedal.

Also, not being a pedant, but please try to use punctuation - I had to re-read your post twice before I understood what you were trying to say

 

[prt57]

Give Alex a call at AKS tuning and he will put you on the right lines. Lots of his built engines go to RTech for mapping.

 

[Dohs3]

Sorry about the puncuation not my best idea to rush into a thread when i just woke up haha

I will be carrying out suspention and brake upgrades as i go along i just want to see what you guys would and would not recomend what parts to look out for ect

I will be doing all the work with my friend who is a mechanic by trade and im not all to bad with the spanners

Its going to be a long project with blood sweat tears and a unhappy bank acount so once i have sorted out a new daily car over the next few weeks i will get the project started fingers crossed

My plan is to start the engine build first and while im not busy doing that i will begin the brake and suspension upgrades

I have a few qustions regarding the camshafts/crankshaft are they up to the job as long as there in good condtion the manaul gearbox is it strong enough for the power

 

[leshkin]

A few people on here went to similar power as you, so I'm sure they will come along shortly. As far as manual boxes go, then the weakest link is the clutch, most end up upgrading soon after stage 1. DSG box seems to be the more popular option for bigger power cars though. Saying that, both boxes will probably need some form of upgrade at about the power level you're after.

As far as shopping lists go, my sig has a selection of some popular kit that you may want to consider to support a safe 420bhp and if yo uplan on going above:
Software: R-Tech custom ECU and R-Tech DSG software
Air and fuel: Revo CAI, Airtec Stg2 IC, TTE420 turbo, BCS 200cel Powervalve exhaust, TTRS LPFP, LOBA HPFP, 165BAR FRV, RS3 8V Injectors
Handling and Brakes: Bilstein B16 iRC coilovers, H&R ARBs, Whiteline Anti-Lift Kit, YSR 6pot 356mm brake kit, Mintex M1155 pads, stock rear for now, braided lines all round

You would be needing more bits to go further, but that is where my experience ends Alex at AKS or Niki at R-Tech are both very good fountains of knowledge with these cars, so worth speaking to them for more insight too.

 

[Dohs3]

The hole idea of forgeing my engine is piece of mind i want to be able to do a few track days here an there and a sunday morning blast every now and again with out been woried about am i pushing to hard and thinking dont go bang in the back of my head and if i ever do want to go more power i no the internals are up to the job plus im a sucker for punishment and love messing with things haha

The shopping list you have there is similar to what ive been looking at as you say someone will pop up who have done the type of build before and it seems most people recomed r tech and they are not all to far away from me

 

[SootySport]

If you're aim is going above stage 2, then forge all the internals first, you don't want to be having the engine out on a regular basis. Brakes, suspension and mapping can be done as and when time/cash allow.

 

[S3Alex]

The issue for you is what sort of torque you’ll get from a TTE480,and in general,the hybrids won’t trouble the internals too much on a daily use basis,as the stock internals are good to 440lbs (and I ran mine with a GT3071 to that level for a couple of years before forging the engine for more).

As has already been said above,the other aspect is trackday use,and with that in mind ,plus you’ll almost certainly find yourself wanting a bit more at some point,makes forging the internals a good idea.

Looking at your shopping list,I think you’ve probably been through my thread at some point,so congrats on having the stamina for that!.....

Leshkin has a very good list above,and if you don’t want to go down the same route as mine,that makes a perfect choice.
I had a different path,as a lot of the current choices in hybrids etc weren’t available,so I’d already gone a long way down the big turbo route.

That said,if you DO want more,this is the time to consider whether or not to do things like the exhaust,inlet and exhaust manifolds etc etc,rather than paying out again later.

I’m guessing that yours isn’t a DSG,and if im right,that makes a HUGE difference to the way the car runs,but is a very expensive upgrade.

 

[Dohs3]

I think forgeing the engine is they way i want to go as i think it will cost a futune but it will be intressing to do and i know the engine is heathly and ready for the power as it is on 80 thousand now its still perfect but peace of mind goes along way

The reson im looking at the tte 480 is im hoping to get around 440bhp im not going for impressive bhp numbers i want in a way to over engineer the engine and to keep it a safe but powerfull and i can go up in power if i want to

Yes it is a manual another thing that i have been looking at is clutchs there are a lot of threads about them and pros and cons going single mass flywheel or keeping the daul mass with uprated clutch kit what are your opinons on them i do like the dsg boxs but i do love a good manul will the manul box be ok

Also my previous car was a foucs st and the inket mainfolds are quite weak on them once you start tuning them but ive not found alot about inlets on the s3 are they good enough for the upgrades or is there aftermarket ones that i will need to look at
Cheers for your replys aswell

 

[S3Alex]

I think forgeing the engine is they way i want to go as i think it will cost a futune but it will be intressing to do and i know the engine is heathly and ready for the power as it is on 80 thousand now its still perfect but peace of mind goes along way

The reson im looking at the tte 480 is im hoping to get around 440bhp im not going for impressive bhp numbers i want in a way to over engineer the engine and to keep it a safe but powerfull and i can go up in power if i want to

Yes it is a manual another thing that i have been looking at is clutchs there are a lot of threads about them and pros and cons going single mass flywheel or keeping the daul mass with uprated clutch kit what are your opinons on them i do like the dsg boxs but i do love a good manul will the manul box be ok

Also my previous car was a foucs st and the inket mainfolds are quite weak on them once you start tuning them but ive not found alot about inlets on the s3 are they good enough for the upgrades or is there aftermarket ones that i will need to look at
Cheers for your replys aswell

Agreed,given what you plan,and the need for reliability as well....that was always top of my list.

440bhp will get you a pretty quick car,and with a forged engine,gives you plenty of scope if you decide to go mad!

The best of the clutches for that sort of torque and usability that I found was the Spec Stg3+......it's a full face carbon/metallic design,which means it's easy enough to use around town,with none of the problems of a paddle clutch,but will also cope with much more torque than you're likely to run,and will cope with more than the gearbox will.

It is an SMF setup,but to be honest,anything you're going to get to deal with that level of torque will be,as there are no DMF clutches that I know of that will cope.
The downside is chatter at idle,but once moving,you won't notice it,and you won't end up with thighs like Arnie's from trying to press the pedal...I had no problems with shifting using that clutch either.
The gearbox itself is OK,but prone to synchro,selector,and bearing wear especially as you increase the torque,and mine got rebuilt at around 40k miles.

The inlet manifold is OK from the build quality viewpoint,but may start to get a bit restrictive around 500bhp or thereabouts,and if you're looking for something appropriate,there are a few choices.

The IE manifold is very good,and well made,plus has WMI ports,and the Boulekos that I have will run port injectors,which was the reason I got it.

Port injectors are really only necessary above 480-500bhp,and would mean either a lot of work with the existing ECU,or a Syvecs ECU.

I think you'll be OK with the stock manifold......all of the aftermarket bits are very expensive,and you'd need a very good reason to swap to those.

 

[Kaine19]

Whats CDL engine like and good for?

 

[Dohs3]

Good stuff i will look into that clutch then the hole design of a dmf is not a good idea for a high powered car is it so smf was always number 1 choice cheers

I was reading on a build thread from someone called dom on here where he had the shafts in the oil pump removed and welded is that somethink i need to look at doing or is the oil pump ok as long as the pump is in good codtion and i look after the oil thanks for your replys

 

[S3Alex]

Good stuff i will look into that clutch then the hole design of a dmf is not a good idea for a high powered car is it so smf was always number 1 choice cheers

I was reading on a build thread from someone called dom on here where he had the shafts in the oil pump removed and welded is that somethink i need to look at doing or is the oil pump ok as long as the pump is in good codtion and i look after the oil thanks for your replys

No problems at all with the oil pump here.....the oil pickup pipe is a known issue but regular oil changes with a good quality synthetic is a must.

 

[badger5]

No problems at all with the oil pump here.....the oil pickup pipe is a known issue but regular oil changes with a good quality synthetic is a must.

Agree with regular oil changes from the carbon build up I see inside.. and side effects on blocking things like oil squirters.. which in turn seem to evolve into broken piston rings and ring lands..
The pump, and balance shaft delete vs retrofit 1.8t (more work more parts required) to me lean towards balance shaft delete and uprated sprocket. Big power (read usually higher revving) and the balance shaft gears etc... and their potential failure are what makes me lean this way.
I've not yet seen a definitive explanation of why tfsi's suffer more oil pump and pickup pipe failures than previous generation engines.. pickup pipes from clogging and long life service I get (daft thing to do) but the balance shafts, wearing their bearings and gear mesh then failing catastrophically.. is this all from blocked pickup pipes and low oil pressure or something else...
Hmmmm

 

[spawn616]

will possibly add no input
but the reason these motors suffer from oil pick up problems is because unknowing consumers get nothing for their warranty at dealerships, so when us poor souls get the car, the car has been stamped for good health but nothing has actually been done to them.

next point is why apr pump (999doll hairs) when there is loba,ie,autotech at much cheaper prices, they do say the run more fuel but tested it is unlikely that it is far superior for that price adjustment.

if you did read the first million pages of alexs3 thread you will see that the only real way to get rid of carbon build up is to change the tappet cover but running wmi in the intake can def clean the ports and injectors over the long run.

don't be scared of the chatter noise from smf, it really isn't that bad, quarter radio volume drowns it out. but sachs has both if you don't want to go the spec route.

the real deciding factor you should consider is time.. if the plan is to keep the car for one or two years i wouldn't forge it, rather sell up, if you plan on keeping it for 2 or more years (10) then do it. but keep in mind the mbq platform(golf7r,8vs3) doesn't need much to run into the mid 11s low 12s.

thats my worthless but maybe tax-free opinion.

ps if you do forge, take pickchas ,we like pickchas

 

[S3Alex]

@spawn616 ....welcome,and thanks!

I have to add though that unfortunately WMI made little difference to cleaning the ports on mine,and removing all the breathers from the inlet,and replacing the cam cover etc was the big difference,plus running port fuel injectors now...not that I'd recommend the latter unless you have to of course!

 

[paddy]

I can understand the " just buy a faster car in the first place " thing but it misses the point, the guy says in his first post "Hi i have just sold my land rover toy so now im looking for a new project "
absolutely agree, i have spent the last 40 years tuning and riding Motorbikes which is a hobby, business, endless project and great fun all rolled into one............oh and its a form of transport as well apparently
Now i have reached an age where having survived 40 years i don't want to push my luck anymore and have turned to the S3 to give me something to do, think about, plan and work on in short a project. Yes i could buy a 911 and get the same power as std but where is the fun in that. The whole thing about the S3 is its totally bog std on the outside, i even bought some wheel spacers but never fitted them because it would spoil the plan
One day i will pull up to that 911 at the lights in my "apparently bog std 7 year old S3"and blow it away while yawning at it and smiling..

so completely get the project go for it.....

 

[paddy]

Just an aside
My S3 put an orange engine light on at 50k miles. It went to the garage 7 times in 10k miles and had new fuel pumps catch can and solenoid valve, MAF etc but the light still came on every 150 miles. The code was "rich at idle bank one"
Eventually i took it in to my local garage where i take my van and told the guy i had this light for 10k miles and not even the main dealer could put it out and he just ran something through the inlets for 30 mins ? said the valve stems lacquer up in layers and eventually the valve stems get sticky. Have to say i took it with a pinch of salt but that light went out and its been out now for 4k miles so he either fixed it or took the bulb out He said he see's 2-3 times a week now with direct injection engines.

 

[S.]

Just an aside
My S3 put an orange engine light on at 50k miles. It went to the garage 7 times in 10k miles and had new fuel pumps catch can and solenoid valve, MAF etc but the light still came on every 150 miles. The code was "rich at idle bank one"
Eventually i took it in to my local garage where i take my van and told the guy i had this light for 10k miles and not even the main dealer could put it out and he just ran something through the inlets for 30 mins ? said the valve stems lacquer up in layers and eventually the valve stems get sticky. Have to say i took it with a pinch of salt but that light went out and its been out now for 4k miles so he either fixed it or took the bulb out He said he see's 2-3 times a week now with direct injection engines.

So your issue was sticky valve?
I seem to have same issue to.
Also at 50k.
Direct injection. No wonder audi went with dual injection on newer 2.0tsi and 2.5tfsi (direct and port injection).
Was it also using a lot of fuel?

 

[S3Alex]

Just an aside
My S3 put an orange engine light on at 50k miles. It went to the garage 7 times in 10k miles and had new fuel pumps catch can and solenoid valve, MAF etc but the light still came on every 150 miles. The code was "rich at idle bank one"
Eventually i took it in to my local garage where i take my van and told the guy i had this light for 10k miles and not even the main dealer could put it out and he just ran something through the inlets for 30 mins ? said the valve stems lacquer up in layers and eventually the valve stems get sticky. Have to say i took it with a pinch of salt but that light went out and its been out now for 4k miles so he either fixed it or took the bulb out He said he see's 2-3 times a week now with direct injection engines.

I've got some pics somewhere of the rubbish that builds up on the valve stems,and is it significant relative to the inlet area.
It accumulates faster on tuned engines,due to increased blow-by etc from the engine,and WMI doesn't cure it.

The solution is to remove all the breathers from the inlet system and use a catch tank and a different cam cover,so it's a messy and expensive business to remove altogether,when walnut blasting the inlet valves is relatively less costly.

 

[paddy]

My guy sprayed something in the inlet i think with the engine running over about half hour, it ran like a dog while he did it but once it smoothed out again the problem was gone. I think he charged about £60 so it couldn't have been much but it did the job, at tickover now in the car you are not aware the engine is even running. several times i have had to check the rev counter because i thought it had stopped but then i am a bit deaf after years on bikes
The real problem though is this closed circuit breathing, when i fitted the new CAI the old pipe by the bypass was just dripping in oil and a mate pulled the pipes of his intercooler on a TT and again the oil just poured out..

 

[paddy]

I once pulled a Kawasaki 1100 engine down and that must have been leaking down the valve guides for years. The valve stems were double the normal dia after the guides with built up coke and the valve heads were double thickness I'm not really sure how the exhaust got out past those at all ...the valve guides protrude on those engines and their was a perfect impression in the coke on the stems of the ends of the guides.

 

[Dohs3]

Ive forgot how much i hate buying cars going to try and get one tomorrow or over the weekend and the project will be well on its way with plenty of pics

I agree with paddy sometimes newer and faster dont mean better haven driven the new s3 and some nice bmws i didnt get the same feeling and enjoyment as i do in mine dont get me wrong they are brilliant cars but it just lacked somethink as i think with a lot of the new cars but thats my opinon ive found the right car for me as ive always wanted the 8p s3

As for the smf as long as i know its not a fault i can deal with the noise

 

[spawn616]

ya i understand that to, i actually walked away from the new s3 simply based on its looks, from the front its 1.2tfsi and the interior is nice but not mercedes nice so i bought a very low mileage 8p s3 and a house and the most ridiculous sized tv in the world with the change

the smf also has less mass to spin so slightly quicker boost

 

[paddy]

Slightly off topic now but i really don't like the new S3 from its 4 pipes ( whats that all about ?) to its pop up nav screen that looks like if you reach forward for something you will snap it off. Audi s models used to be a understated but even the colour range of the new 3's shouts bling

 

[SootySport]

Slightly off topic now but i really don't like the new S3 from its 4 pipes ( whats that all about ?) to its pop up nav screen that looks like if you reach forward for something you will snap it off. Audi s models used to be a understated but even the colour range of the new 3's shouts bling

I agree , they are beginning to look like a Merc A series inside and out, all blingy.

 

[samuelh_888]

ive always wanted the 8p s3

Ditto, exactly that.

I like the 8V but it just feels a bit mature for me..

 

[Dohs3]

So i have a little bit of an update i finally found a bag off crap focus to run around in missing the s3 already anyway on to the good bits

The engine came out on saturday managed to use my friends ramp at work witch was a massive help and made taking the engine out so much easier

So thats were we started (1st pic an this is were we are tonight last pic) hopefully if all goes well maybe able to have the pistions out tomorrow i think we have done well getting it to this point already hopefully i can start ordering some nice new shinny parts soon aswell

I enquired about the tte 480 today wich has a 6-8 week waiting period and with christmas and new year coming probley longer but got plenty of other things to get on with im the mean time

Another question that i wanted to ask is head gasket do you guys think a genuine head gasket will be best to fit

Hopefully another update tomorrow if im able to get time to get the pistions and rods out

 

[spawn616]

i expected those valves to be worse in all honesty

 

[Dohs3]

Yes so did i there not all to bad are they i did find the water pump leaking and a bit of oil around plug number 4 which was a bit strange as it was runing perfect

There is also slight play in my transfer box i have felt it on gear change ever now and again have any of you guys had any issues with transfer boxes

 

[S3Alex]

Yes so did i there not all to bad are they i did find the water pump leaking and a bit of oil around plug number 4 which was a bit strange as it was runing perfect

There is also slight play in my transfer box i have felt it on gear change ever now and again have any of you guys had any issues with transfer boxes

I hope this doesn’t happen to yours but my original one was toast at 40k miles.

Possibly a manufacturer issue but no way of being sure other than the replacement lasting longer and with far more torque.

 

[leshkin]

I hope this doesn’t happen to yours but my original one was toast at 40k miles.

Possibly a manufacturer issue but no way of being sure other than the replacement lasting longer and with far more torque.

I just dropped my S at a transmission specialist today for investigation - very unpleasant metallic rolling/grinding noise when close to full lock in either direction (CVs and drive shafts are new). They suspect planet gears in the transfer box are kaput. Car is on 80k miles now, so part of me expected this with all the other issues I've had. Thinking that either a rebuild or replacement is incoming.

 

[S3Alex]

I just dropped my S at a transmission specialist today for investigation - very unpleasant metallic rolling/grinding noise when close to full lock in either direction (CVs and drive shafts are new). They suspect planet gears in the transfer box are kaput. Car is on 80k miles now, so part of me expected this with all the other issues I've had. Thinking that either a rebuild or replacement is incoming.

The transmission in mine had whined a bit from new,esp in lower gears,and having come from a car with a straight cut gearbox,I assumed this was OK.

At 40k miles,the gears were getting a bit difficult to select,so while the car was in having the engine built,the gearbox and transfer case were opened up.....
The selector forks were worn,and the synchros and bearing were in a bit of a state,with a fair amount of brass bearing debris in the casing,so that went off to be rebuilt.
The transfer case was a different matter....complete junk,and needed replacement.

 

[Dohs3]

I am hoping to start ordering bits and pieces soon like pistions and rods but what do you guys recommend for bearings and any particular website or makes i should look for

Another thing is ive been looking at changing the oil pump to the 1.8t oil pump as my friend has a brand new pump and pick up pipe so all i will need is sprocket chain and plastic cover have anyone else done this conversion and why do people do it

 

[SootySport]

The oil shaft is miserably thin and can round at the end. There are a couple of firms that modify the oil pump shafts, forgot there names, just Google A3 oil pump problems.
Pick up pipe just needs cleaning, a gloopy mess blocks the strainer when infrequent oil changes are carried out, usually due Long Life service regime.

 

[Dohs3]

So im finally back ive been pretty busy with christmas work and life. But i have good news i have got my nice reconditioned turbo along with my nice new shinny pistons and rods and a very unhappy bank balance but oh well.
I have now removed and reseated my valves. So there all nice an clean from carbon. I have fitted the crank and fitted new main bearings on number 5 as there was only very minimal scoring on them and all the others were perfect. so as i was there i might aswell change them along with the bolts. Just waiting on the two crank seals now.

So thats the progress so far i might try and get round to putting the pistons in tomorrow hopefully.

 

[paddy]

are you fitting new pistons in old bores ?