Sportback Concerning dyno graph after power run

[CHRS3]

Had the car stage 1 remapped back in December last year, it ran a comfortable 426bhp and 545Nm (low torque for a stage 1 I thought) but the Dyno used was a MAHA dyno and they apparently give a little lower torque figure than most dynos due to the way they measure the power.

I fitted an eventuri intake a few months ago and had been curious to see if I’d gained any power so I booked in at a local garage for a power run by the name of JM imports who most will have probably heard of.

Cut a long story short, the car ran like S**T - the best run out of the 3 was a 327 wbhp and 416 wftlb which at a rough transmission loss of 15% means at the crank was around 386bhp and 491ftlb which actually convert to 665Nm peak (only for small time you will see from graph) so considerably different figures! I do think the Dyno JM use is quite generous on torque figures but their HP figures seem to be bang on the money when compared to APR stage 1 RS3s they’ve tuned and ran as always match APRs figures.

The graph is the main concern though, it is not smooth in the slightest at all! The first thing they said was what fuel is in it. The car has always been ran on V power 99 Ron since ownership I’ve never put a lower octane fuel in at all. The guy who ran the car said it felt like it was fighting against its self and didn’t feel good at all. The only thing that’s been changed since the map is the intake to eventuri which should’ve gave more power if anything. I don’t drive the car often and when I do it’s not always spirited so I’ve not noticed a difference in the feel of the car. However after taking it for a drive after this I did feel like the car was hesitant almost coming on/off boost in a way. (With traction off)

This is the graph above. Any suggestions what could be causing such a power loss and such a spiky graph? It’s a bit weird the torque isn’t really down if anything it’s up on peak. I’m concerned the timing could be off and I’m hoping I’m not getting any pre ignition as the knock sensors don’t always pick it up. Ive contacted the place where it was mapped asking their opinion but no response yet.

I will be doing some dragy times this week to see how the car performs on the road in terms of times.

Thanks.

 

[Csllover]

Was the more recent dyno run in 4wd or 2wd? The haldex can give wobbly power graphs as the power shifts from front to back.


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[CHRS3]

Was the more recent dyno run in 4wd or 2wd? The haldex can give wobbly power graphs as the power shifts from front to back.


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4wd, most of the cars they do Dyno are all 4wd anyway as they’re a GTR specialist frequently Dyno 1000+ Bhp cars. My Haldex is set up more rear wheel bias but don’t think that would effect the graph? They’ve dynod about 3 other PFL RS3s in which they have put an APR stage 1 map on and all the graphs for those are pretty smooth I have screen shots if helpful for comparison.

 

[Sequence]

The only real way to know what is going on is by logging the car, you can then see if it is hitting the requested boost if it is pulling any timing and what it is advancing to. I Must say though that early torque spike is nasty, take it easy until it is figured out.

 

[CHRS3]

The only real way to know what is going on is by logging the car, you can then see if it is hitting the requested boost if it is pulling any timing and what it is advancing to. I Must say though that early torque spike is nasty, take it easy until it is figured out.

Thanks for the reply. Any way to log the car myself? A friend of mine mentioned V power pulling timing so was going to try momentum but wouldn’t have thought it would’ve been as bad as that.

 

[Sequence]

Thanks for the reply. Any way to log the car myself? A friend of mine mentioned V power pulling timing so was going to try momentum but wouldn’t have thought it would’ve been as bad as that.

More to it than just the fuel unless you got a really bad batch, Do you have access to VCDS or someone who does?

 

[CHRS3]

More to it than just the fuel unless you got a really bad batch, Do you have access to VCDS or someone who does?

Sorry just seen your reply, I don’t have VCDS unfortunately. I don’t know anyone who does either. Is there a cheaper alternative? If it’s more than just fuel got any ideas what it could be? Just trying to eliminate some possibilities. I do think it’s the map but awaiting a reply from the company who did it. I got one reply asking to see the Dyno print out then nothing that was 4 days ago.

 

[Sequence]

Sorry just seen your reply, I don’t have VCDS unfortunately. I don’t know anyone who does either. Is there a cheaper alternative? If it’s more than just fuel got any ideas what it could be? Just trying to eliminate some possibilities. I do think it’s the map but awaiting a reply from the company who did it. I got one reply asking to see the Dyno print out then nothing that was 4 days ago.

Not many other options tbh you could go back to JM and ask them to log it for you or another reputable tuner/specialist that is local. Pretty poor response from the place that tuned it.

 

[seventeenapg]

Sorry just seen your reply, I don’t have VCDS unfortunately. I don’t know anyone who does either. Is there a cheaper alternative? If it’s more than just fuel got any ideas what it could be? Just trying to eliminate some possibilities. I do think it’s the map but awaiting a reply from the company who did it. I got one reply asking to see the Dyno print out then nothing that was 4 days ago.

Who mapped it Chris,?

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[CHRS3]

Not many other options tbh you could go back to JM and ask them to log it for you or another reputable tuner/specialist that is local. Pretty poor response from the place that tuned it.

What sort of variables should I look at being logged? I’ve found someone a few friends have suggested. Also what’s the best way to log it? A friend of mine suggestion a 4th gear pull to about 5k rpm a bit like a dyno run but obv massive speed there so will have to be strategic about it.

 

[CHRS3]

Who mapped it Chris,?

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I don’t really want to say as I don’t want to damage any reputation however their customer service as of late has been SHOCKING. I drove 3 hours a month ago for a service I was booked in at 11, I didn’t get on the ramp until 16:20 on a Saturday for a simple oil change and dogbone mount insert and I got charged 1.5 hours labour for 40 mins work. The ‘service’ labour rate was 114+ vat and the half an hour normal labour was £60+ vat I ended up paying basically £300 almost for an oil change and dogbone mount insert. So wasn’t happy then now this map issue. I emailed him on the Saturday, replied on the Tuesday asking to see the Dyno graph and I’ve heard nothing since..

 

[Sequence]

What sort of variables should I look at being logged? I’ve found someone a few friends have suggested. Also what’s the best way to log it? A friend of mine suggestion a 4th gear pull to about 5k rpm a bit like a dyno run but obv massive speed there so will have to be strategic about it.

Ok, so you want to be logging RPM, throttle position, requested boost pressure and actual, you want these to match as close as possible.
Ignition retardd for 1-5 cylinders you are looking for 0 across the board with minor retardd occasionally on the odd one or two cylinders no more than 3 degrees ideally. On our fuel, it will never be 100% clean all the way through with tuned timing.
Start with these and report back, I will bet you will see considerable timing retardd. There are some other variables to look at but it gets a little more complicated.

As for the actual logging I have always gone from around 2500rpm to redline. Yes 4th gear is ideal as it takes a good amount of time and puts the car under a lot of load so you get a great window of data. This is obviously way over license losing territory on the roads. 3rd gear will still be fine for logging go from 2500-redline full throttle all the way, take a look at the data and if you are seeing lots of retarded timing/boost pressure not matching (a little off is normal) or anything else did not look or feel right leave it there and don't put the car through any more.

 

[CHRS3]

Ok, so you want to be logging RPM, throttle position, requested boost pressure and actual, you want these to match as close as possible.
Ignition retardd for 1-5 cylinders you are looking for 0 across the board with minor retardd occasionally on the odd one or two cylinders no more than 3 degrees ideally. On our fuel, it will never be 100% clean all the way through with tuned timing.
Start with these and report back, I will bet you will see considerable timing retardd. There are some other variables to look at but it gets a little more complicated.

As for the actual logging I have always gone from around 2500rpm to redline. Yes 4th gear is ideal as it takes a good amount of time and puts the car under a lot of load so you get a great window of data. This is obviously way over license losing territory on the roads. 3rd gear will still be fine for logging go from 2500-redline full throttle all the way, take a look at the data and if you are seeing lots of retarded timing/boost pressure not matching (a little off is normal) or anything else did not look or feel right leave it there and don't put the car through any more.

Thank you buddy! I will try my best to get this logged ASAP doing as you suggested I will report back once I’ve done it. I’ve messaged someone with VCDS who does coding etc but also a buddy of mine has diagnostic equipment by snapon which he said can log ignition timing etc so I’ve sent your reply to him to see if he can check if it will do the above.

Also ordered a dragy box Friday and did a run Saturday night.. 11.3 100-200. 0.5s worse than claimed stock. However the car did go into red for fuel so it may’ve pulled power due to lower fuel so I’ve now tried a tank of 99 Tesco momentum (people say this is better than v power) so will do another run perhaps when logging data and see if it’s any different.

 

[seventeenapg]

I don’t really want to say as I don’t want to damage any reputation however their customer service as of late has been SHOCKING. I drove 3 hours a month ago for a service I was booked in at 11, I didn’t get on the ramp until 16:20 on a Saturday for a simple oil change and dogbone mount insert and I got charged 1.5 hours labour for 40 mins work. The ‘service’ labour rate was 114+ vat and the half an hour normal labour was £60+ vat I ended up paying basically £300 almost for an oil change and dogbone mount insert. So wasn’t happy then now this map issue. I emailed him on the Saturday, replied on the Tuesday asking to see the Dyno graph and I’ve heard nothing since..

Understand Chris. Having said that this seems like an outfit that all of us need to steer clear of in the future. One customer going through this unnecessary set of circumstances is enough and who ever it is deserves no business from anyone in this forum/group.
Please keep us informed along this journey so we get to know the final outcome. I wish you well

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[CHRS3]

Update [mention]Sequence [/mention]

Ok so I attempted to log the car tonight with a buddies snapon ethos edge diagnostic tool as the coding guy hasn’t replied yet. Doesn’t have an option for cylinder 1 ignition retardd but gives an option for ignition timing advance, but doesn’t state which cylinder so I’m assuming it’s an average across the board or something? Unsure how well this works as on idle I was seeing -4/5 degrees then sometimes in access of 20 degrees both retardd and advanced when just even revving the engine. When I release the throttle after load the timing retardds to -25. My friend is going to see about graphing the data and looking into it better on his laptop but I took a short video of the live data in a 3rd gear pull I’m happy to send to anyone interested. Like I say the data logging isn’t the same as VCDS and I’m unsure what cylinder the ignition timing is worked out from and how it derives the readings it gives.

There was also 2 background fault codes which I’m going to attach a photo of, I haven’t looked into them properly yet.

Lastly, while logging this I redone my dragy 100-200 dragy run now with a full tank of fuel so no power cuts from low fuel. Did try Tesco momentum this time and I ran a 10.3. So still having issues as this is stock 100-200 times. So that’s a different brand 99 octane fuel used so I’m fairly happy to remove the fuel being the issue here.

 

[Sequence]

Update [mention]Sequence [/mention]

Ok so I attempted to log the car tonight with a buddies snapon ethos edge diagnostic tool as the coding guy hasn’t replied yet. Doesn’t have an option for cylinder 1 ignition retardd but gives an option for ignition timing advance, but doesn’t state which cylinder so I’m assuming it’s an average across the board or something? Unsure how well this works as on idle I was seeing -4/5 degrees then sometimes in access of 20 degrees both retardd and advanced when just even revving the engine. When I release the throttle after load the timing retardds to -25. My friend is going to see about graphing the data and looking into it better on his laptop but I took a short video of the live data in a 3rd gear pull I’m happy to send to anyone interested. Like I say the data logging isn’t the same as VCDS and I’m unsure what cylinder the ignition timing is worked out from and how it derives the readings it gives.

There was also 2 background fault codes which I’m going to attach a photo of, I haven’t looked into them properly yet.

Lastly, while logging this I redone my dragy 100-200 dragy run now with a full tank of fuel so no power cuts from low fuel. Did try Tesco momentum this time and I ran a 10.3. So still having issues as this is stock 100-200 times. So that’s a different brand 99 octane fuel used so I’m fairly happy to remove the fuel being the issue here.

Feel free to send the video over, the ignition timing after let off is ok as I'm assuming you have added overun/pops and bangs. Yea we can most likely rule out fuel now, there can be other fuel system issues but less likely.

 

[CHRS3]

Feel free to send the video over, the ignition timing after let off is ok as I'm assuming you have added overun/pops and bangs. Yea we can most likely rule out fuel now, there can be other fuel system issues but less likely.

Yes buddy I do have overrun I thought that’s why the ignition would be retardd on release just checking. The video isn’t very clear but I’m happy to send what’s the easiest way?

I’ve just rewatched it there and the timing looked to be always advancing and reaches 9 degrees towards the end. I was monitoring relative throttle position and for some reason foot flat to the floor is showing 74.9. Happy to send across its a little blurry and shaky and I’m unsure how useful the info is but appreciate your advice none the less.

Will see if my buddy can graph it and correlate the data better and still going to get a proper data log with VCDS when I find someone as the guy I messaged hasn’t responded yet.

 

[Sequence]

Yes buddy I do have overrun I thought that’s why the ignition would be retardd on release just checking. The video isn’t very clear but I’m happy to send what’s the easiest way?

I’ve just rewatched it there and the timing looked to be always advancing and reaches 9 degrees towards the end. I was monitoring relative throttle position and for some reason foot flat to the floor is showing 74.9. Happy to send across its a little blurry and shaky and I’m unsure how useful the info is but appreciate your advice none the less.

Will see if my buddy can graph it and correlate the data better and still going to get a proper data log with VCDS when I find someone as the guy I messaged hasn’t responded yet.

I will pm you my number you can whatsapp it over if you like?


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[Csllover]

Understand Chris. Having said that this seems like an outfit that all of us need to steer clear of in the future. One customer going through this unnecessary set of circumstances is enough and who ever it is deserves no business from anyone in this forum/group.
Please keep us informed along this journey so we get to know the final outcome. I wish you well

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Agree 100%


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[CHRS3]

*Update*

So after getting the car logged and @Sequence kindly taking a second look for me we noticed the car is overboosting causing the throttle to close in turn reducing the boost back to where it should be. The ignition timing is fine so if the cause of the over boosting is rectified hoping the car returns to its 420ish Bhp and loses the wavy graph if I got it dyno ran again.

I spoke to the tuner. He think that’s the eventuri intake is sending a lot more air than the stock one and that the wastegate duty cycle needs to be adjusted to suit this. Had it been on stock map it would’ve been fine but since the stage 1 map the way it is tuned the wastegate can’t just adjust to suit. (I personally haven’t got a clue this is just what he said) I’m sceptical as seems a lot of power loss for getting a bit more air into the turbo quicker but I’m no expert or tuner. He has offered for me to drive up and have the car logged by him, wastegate duty cycle adjusted and see where we are at after that free of charge.

Hopefully that’s all it is!

 

[banny650]

Did you get sorted?

 

[CHRS3]

Did you get sorted?

Sorry forgot to do another update.

So after a 7 hour round trip the car is ‘fine’ it actually made 439hp on the best run (which is stage 2 figures and seems very optimistic) all data logging came back fine no issues, the over boosting apparently was ok and it wasn’t worth the change in wastegate duty as it wouldn’t make a difference. I mentioned the fact I was pulling stock car 100-200 times and had no explanation for this said do it on launch it’ll be faster but I dragyd my buddies stock RS3 no launch and it ran a ever so slightly quicker time than me. So in my honest opinion, something is definitely a miss. I don’t know whether they’re frigging the Dyno to show it’s running more power or whatever but no idea how it can show a graph like the original post on one dyno and have a poor 100-200 time to back it up then make 439bhp with no change? One Dyno is lying I was going to spend money checking it on a third but decided not to as I’m going stage 3 anyway at the end of the month. My main concern was if I had mechanical issues which logging shows I don’t, and the timing wasn’t off so wouldn’t have had any engine knock or anything so engine should be all good. I actually did a 100-200 on the way home and ran a 10.7 but short shifted. Even still no where near stage 1 times.

I can’t fault the company anyway, he did all of the checking in his free time and free of charge, spent a good 2.5 hours with me and even helped with other concerns I’d had.