Census 2011! How are your *standard* rods?

[superkarl]

and isnt A) and B) just saying the same thing in a different way


A) Give people an idea of the number of S3's that are getting bent rods.
B) Give people some information about individual S3's that are getting bent rods.

i think the pole may have some relevance but it needs alot more data added cant we put a link to it on SCN and any other VAG forums

Good idea! Just doing it on here is far too small!

 

[Don's A3 TTu]

just posted a thread linking to this poll on all audi series which have the 1.8T engine

should bring in some more data!

 

[aragorn]

More data thats even less useful.

A remap on a 150hp AEB wont even come close to harming the rods, stage 1 on a 163hp b6 a4 also wont come close, but will be running 19mm wrist pins as well.

Just adding even more noise to a already dodgy poll.

 

[metricspaces]

and isnt A) and B) just saying the same thing in a different way


A) Give people an idea of the number of S3's that are getting bent rods.
B) Give people some information about individual S3's that are getting bent rods.

i think the pole may have some relevance but it needs alot more data added cant we put a link to it on SCN and any other VAG forums

No. It is not the same thing.

A) Will give you some numbers only.
B) Will give you additional information about each of cars that make up those numbers.

 

[badger5]

...Nothing about debate, all about information sharing. But happy to debate the benifits of information sharing, as one or two don't seem to get it

LMAO .... sorry, but briefly reading this thread, and you dont think there's a debate, where you appear to be at the centre of it?


as I have said in other threads, and I will try to say this "only once" more..
Other factors like for example seriously high timing pull, caused by malfunctioning knock sensors, excessive oil consumption, will create detonation, which in turn will be of a magnitude way higher than "boost" pressures from assorted maps of varying "stages" - These forces are what will snap rods like twigs

 

[badger5]

I find that a bit rich to be honest, especially on an Audi site, so your saying if we had the knowledge of the SCN guys there would not be an issue?
There are plenty of people on here with great builds inc yourself, and a few possibly spectacular ones..in the making... so i would not say there is a lack of tuning culture...

relative to SEATs I would say Audi's are lesser so.. from what I see here anyhows.
LCR's also break rods.. and did do from the factory when released.

 

[badger5]

De ja vu....

or is it de ja moo.. (you know the rest )

 

[metricspaces]

LMAO .... sorry, but briefly reading this thread, and you dont think there's a debate, where you appear to be at the centre of it?

No, the intention of this thread is not to debate whether it is of any use. The intention is to share information.

If people think it is no use, then they don't have to read it, or update the poll.

as I have said in other threads, and I will try to say this "only once" more..
Other factors like for example seriously high timing pull, caused by malfunctioning knock sensors, excessive oil consumption, will create detonation, which in turn will be of a magnitude way higher than "boost" pressures from assorted maps of varying "stages" - These forces are what will snap rods like twigs

This is what the thread is about, sharing useful info, cheers

 

[superkarl]

relevent to rods, a friend of mine just had this done...

im thinking of getting one with a bent one, with maybe, never say never, or, weapon of mass destruction, underneath it, something along those lines anyway.

 

[metricspaces]

More data thats even less useful.

A remap on a 150hp AEB wont even come close to harming the rods, stage 1 on a 163hp b6 a4 also wont come close, but will be running 19mm wrist pins as well.

Finally, something I agree with aragorn on . I think it would be more benificial if the poll contained only information about rods snapping on S3's.

....to a already dodgy poll.

Ooops, back to disagreeing again. The phrase "broken records" comes to mind. We already know your view about the poll - you have told us enough times. Continuously repeating it is not adding anything. So what do you hope to achieve by constantly repeating it?

 

[metricspaces]

You can't go around replacing every part of your car because you fear it may fail.

Whilst I agree with you - The point I would make is that bending a rod brings massive cost with it. It's not like breaking a clutch or something along those lines. More often than not you will damage the block as well, which bring even more costs.

Yep, I agree, you need to take into consideration not only the probability of it happening to you. I said this as far back as post #18 http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...011-how-your-*standard*-rods.html#post1175932

Precisely. I'm not saying the only thing you should base you judgement on is how many cars you see with bent rods on stage-1, it is just one of a few factors worth considering, for example:

1) Probability of rods breaking
2) Cost of replacing rods
3) Cost of fixing car if rods break
4) How long you intend keeping the car

You need to weigh them all up. But the goal of this thread is simply to consider the first point. Roughly how many S3's are we seeing with bent rods and get some info about them - what maps they were on, what boost, torque, etc they had, had they any other problems. This sort of info will help others decide the level of risk.

 

[metricspaces]

This thread will do wonders for the resale value of mapped S3's

Tell me about it, for the handful of rod failures we have in the poll, we should all be running scared about the possible risk.

A thread that shows very few S3's have ended up with bent rods would scare a potential buyer. Could you expand on the logic behind that???

We can be absolutely sure these rods ARE running near their limits with remapped engines, otherwise there would be no failures

I would think that comments like this, that cannot be backed up, are more likely to scare a potential buyers.

"oh, you have it remapped, but you haven't replaced your rods? But they said on Audi Sport that the rods are running near their limits. Can we knock £1000 of the price so that I can get them done please?"

 

[superkarl]

do you argue for a living?
are you a politician?
or lawyer or something?

 

[JS1500]

I have first hand experience with this - which most of you don't.

I do!
Not on the S3 though - the Midget bent a rod and now has uprated ones! I also snapped a driveshaft, thus is the extra 30-40bhp (or most likey the related torque increase) over standard.

Had there been a gathering of information for modified MG Midgets (such as this thread/poll was intended for S3s) I could've made the decision to have the rods etc uprated...

The thread is supposed to provide info so the reader can make a decision (either way) in a more informed manner. Some people seem to be acting like metricspaces is trying to convice people not to have their rods changed... I don't understand this.

 

[Avant4me]

Admitadly not my current car, but i built it and i know its still running.

Its an AUQ engine SEAT Leon but AUQ is identical to the audi TT.
It would be useful for people who have seen failures to update with relavent info about their cars:

* What stage map they were on e.g. stage-1, stage-2 -Stage 2 Custom
* What map they were on e.g. CustomCode, Revo, etc. - Performance Torque
* What max bhp they had - 237
* What max torque they had - 274
* What max boost they had -No idea
* How old the car was when the rods bent? -N/A
* How old the car was when it was first remapped? - 4 years 50,000 miles
* Was there any other issue with the car e.g. was there a problem with oil supply to the engine? N/A

 

[badger5]

A thread that shows very few S3's have ended up with bent rods would scare a potential buyer. Could you expand on the logic behind that???



I would think that comments like this, that cannot be backed up, are more likely to scare a potential buyers.

"oh, you have it remapped, but you haven't replaced your rods? But they said on Audi Sport that the rods are running near their limits. Can we knock £1000 of the price so that I can get them done please?"

you started the poll ***...
lol

I'll give you fifty quid for your s3. clearly all its worth now

 

[badger5]

do you argue for a living?
are you a politician?
or lawyer or something?

was thinking the same.
clearly a lot of time on his hands..

 

[badger5]

I do!
Not on the S3 though - the Midget bent a rod and now has uprated ones! I also snapped a driveshaft, thus is the extra 30-40bhp (or most likey the related torque increase) over standard.

Had there been a gathering of information for modified MG Midgets (such as this thread/poll was intended for S3s) I could've made the decision to have the rods etc uprated...

The thread is supposed to provide info so the reader can make a decision (either way) in a more informed manner. Some people seem to be acting like metricspaces is trying to convice people not to have their rods changed... I don't understand this.

the problem with this thread is its totally flawed... and verging on pointless.
started with good intent, but not thought thru from the beginning. hence the continued debate and counter arguing....
Pointless thread as it stands.. imho

roll on 20th

 

[jdas03]

Sorry if some one has mentioned this already, tried reading through all the posts!
But just a thought, the TT quattro sport runs 240bhp, 236lbs from the 1.8T out the factory.
Anyone happen to know whether the internals are the same on these?
Alot of people run stage ones not hitting much more than this.
I dont think Audi would stick that power on a car without knowing full well the parts will last?
So i'd be pretty confident if that TT does run the same rods and i was running similar power.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Sorry if some one has mentioned this already, tried reading through all the posts!
But just a thought, the TT quattro sport runs 240bhp, 236lbs from the 1.8T out the factory.
Anyone happen to know whether the internals are the same on these?
Alot of people run stage ones not hitting much more than this.
I dont think Audi would stick that power on a car without knowing full well the parts will last?
So i'd be pretty confident if that TT does run the same rods and i was running similar power.

TT 225's run the same BAM engine as the later BAM S3's... same power too 225ps (not actual BHP as everyone thinks) dunno where you got 240bhp from... EDIT... yes I do... the 3.2 v6 is 240 ish IIRC... not the same engine at all

Same applies to any 225/210 1.8t... LCR's, TT's and S3's... same engine, same rods... same power

<tuffty/>

 

[jdas03]

TT 225's run the same BAM engine as the later BAM S3's... same power too 225ps (not actual BHP as everyone thinks) dunno where you got 240bhp from...

Same applies to any 225/210 1.8t... LCR's, TT's and S3's... same engine, same rods... same power

<tuffty/>

The quattro sport was a special TT Audi did running 240bhp stock:

Audi TT | evo Car Reviews | Car Reviews | evo

Some more specs here:

2005 Audi TT quattro sport car technical specifications from Carfolio.com - 2 door 1.8 litre (1781 cc) Inline 4 240.3 PS, 6 speed manual

Not sure if thats running the same internals, wondered if anyone knew?

 

[superkarl]

The limited Quattro sportbmodel had 240 tuffty, it had stripped interior, light wheels, cage and more power over the 225 tt.

And I don't think anyone has said that stage 1 is over the limit, because quite frankly we don't know the limit in terms of figures, people have just said that tuning to this level increases pressures on the components, therefore increasing likely hood of ro bending. The fact the Quattro sport tt has those powers suggests Audi boffins think it is safe. But then, stage one and above delivers power more aggressively than standard map.

 

[<tuffty/>]

I stand corrected but not convinced its relevant as rod failures for power related reasons appear to be happing much later than that model was released... I still maintain how the engine is looked after and/or driven is a major factor in this type of rod failure regardless of mapping stage... and as said before, its torque that matters not bhp and 236ftlbs is fairly conservative considering most stage 1 remaps suggest they deliver 250/270ftlbs...

<tuffty/>

 

[superkarl]

And torque delivery will be much more aggressive on remaps compared to standard so its not a comparison. People seem to be thinking that going stage one is the end of there engine and more than it can take. People aren't considering so many different factors!

Ha, sale of stage 1 maps on s3's are about to plummet.

Its far too vague this thread, any new comers are foing to get wrong ideas here

 

[jdas03]

For me i think it gives some reassurance that stage one maps are reasonably safe.
As superkarl said, spikey maps dont help so i guess its down to the owner IMO.
If the car is well maintained, the map is similar to stock and not pushing out massive torque spikes i think you should be ok.
That fact Audi have done this gives me some confidence personally :-D

 

[<tuffty/>]

...Its far too vague this thread, any new comers are foing to get wrong ideas here

I concur....

<tuffty/>

 

[superkarl]

All those in favour of abolishing the thread say I!.......

 

[JS1500]

It's only providing general info for people to use to make their own decisions.
The people will know how they drive, and if they care enough they'll know if they have a torque spike etc...
The info is vague, but valid if used correctly!

4 bent so far, 75 ok.

 

[superkarl]

I suppose your right mate, just not good people getting the wrong idea is it. I guess people need tounderstand that it shouldn't just be a case orlf mapping and hay ho its dine without thorough checks and safety factors in place. Which is why places like r-tech and badger5 are so respected as they will ensure everything is safe and how it should. Rather than other places loading maps in half an hour and people leaving with a 27psi spike of 300 pounds torque. Just because its cheaper, they they'l wonder why something goes wrong, not just rods.

 

[metricspaces]

the problem with this thread is its totally flawed... and verging on pointless.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But you already stated this opinion. So correct me if I am wrong, but you aren't adding anything by repeating it.

Like I said, if people aren't interested in the thread, they don't have to read it or post on it. So from that point, there is no debate. Some people just don't agree with it and persist with telling us all so. That's not a debate - it's just pointless posting.

Almost 80 people responded to the poll - so obviously saw a point in it. So whilst entitled to your opinion, I think that would leave you in the minority

started with good intent, but not thought thru from the beginning. hence the continued debate and counter arguing....
Pointless thread as it stands.. imho

I'm afraid you are incorrect here. It was thought through. If you can be more specific about why you think it wasn't thought through, then I'm only too happy to clarify my thinking through on it for you.

 

[superkarl]

ok the thread has blatantly been unlocked, only for you to continue provoking 'pointless posting'. why not stop it, and let the relevant stuff begin.

 

[metricspaces]

Hi superkarl, some interesting points.

And torque delivery will be much more aggressive on remaps compared to standard so its not a comparison. People seem to be thinking that going stage one is the end of there engine and more than it can take. People aren't considering so many different factors!

I think some of the updates to this thread, like some of your own, mention other factors that people should consider. So from that point of view, I think it will help people to be more informed and make more informed decisions.

Ha, sale of stage 1 maps on s3's are about to plummet.

I would see this thread having the completely opposite effect. Potential owners will be able to see a very small precentage of rods bending on stage-1 S3's, they will also be able to read some of the useful information contributed by others.

Statements of fact like "We can be absolutely sure these rods ARE running near their limits with remapped engines, otherwise there would be no failures" are more likely to case stage-1 S3's to plummet in price. Simply because they cannot be backed up.

Its far too vague this thread, any new comers are foing to get wrong ideas here

If I am understanding you correctly, you feel that new owners would get the wrong idea about S3's from this thread. I don't think that would be benificial. So maybe you can highlight what wrong ideas they would get, and we can address them, so others reading the thread in future will not get the wrong idea?

If I was a new comer, I would see a poll that shows very few S3's bending their rods, I would read some useful information in the thread. All that sounds good to me. So I can't see where a new comer would get the wrong idea. Could you expand?

 

[s3dave]

ok the thread has blatantly been unlocked, only for you to continue provoking 'pointless posting'. why not stop it, and let the relevant stuff begin.

Karl what are you on about "blatanly unlocked"? as someone hacked it?

 

[jojo]

Yaaaawn, let me tell you where this thread/poll has started to fail/or is flawed. There's 81 votes you have here, are they all S3 owners?

Wind back to your first post where it all started, there was no mention of Audi S3, come to think of it, there's not even a mention of 1.8T, so the question you have asked is open to everyone to vote for and answer.

I personally saw it as an S3 thread, since I have no doubt you started it on the basis of a few members with bent rods on their S3's, but it's become clear now that other owners with A3 quattros and A4 1.8T's are voting too, so the poll is now useless.

I rest my case.

 

[superkarl]

my final conclusion to it all is that, there will never be a final figure or conclusion to the dreaded rod bend, as so many different factors can contribute to it, which have pretty much all been mentioned. the rod bends that have happened, have happened for a reason that we may never know exactly why. they havnt happened alot mind, but the fact is it CAN happen, that can not be ignored. its evident that with the rods failing (not just on here, but right across the 1.8t tuning community) the threshold of these rods isnt very high, otherwise it wouldnt happen, and PROFESSIONAL tuners wouldnt advise upgrades beyond a certain level.

what i personally advise myself to do is to be careful, be safe, and when it comes to me tuning my car further, i wont be saying 'get the most power out of it' il be saying 'is the torque curve smooth, is boost safe, is it delivered smooth and consistent, are the fuel/air ratios ok, is timing safe etc etc' these are the things that will massively reduce failure. And i dont mean that people who it has happened to have been careless, because uncontrollable mistakes do happen! they have been unlucky.

if people want to tune the hell out of there car, and are totally happy keeping standard rods so be it, theres no reason why in that case they wont last if the above are followed, but the chance is still there no doubt, its down to how safe that person wants to be, how much power they want, how they drive, and how much they want to gamble.

for me, il be upgrading, because then my engine WILL take alot more abuse, and its less of a worry. some people arent ***** if it happens, some are, whatever.

 

[[Dave B]]

This needs re-locking.

 

[superkarl]

Karl what are you on about "blatanly unlocked"? as someone hacked it?

it got locked mate, bryzan locked it before it got personal lol. a moderator obviously opened it again. yaaaaaaaayyyyyy. no sarcasm lol.

 

[metricspaces]

I personally saw it as an S3 thread, since I have no doubt you started it on the basis of a few members with bent rods on their S3's, but it's become clear now that other owners with A3 quattros and A4 1.8T's are voting too, so the poll is now useless.

I'm pretty sure there were 79 votes before it was suggested owners of non-S3's update the poll. The number of "bent rods" results has not increased. So it's possible to work it out from that.

Leaving aside the poll, the thread contains some useful info in relation to rods, and info in relation to S3's that have had bent rods.

 

[superkarl]

there is some useful info from open minded, unconclusive people yes. but its amongst alot of misconceptions. i guess its a never ending debate that alot of people are very bored of quite frankly. i was interested because i then decided what i wana do about the issue.

 

[metricspaces]

Yep, and the more useful information people have, the less misconceptions people will have, and this will enable them to make more informed decisions.