Cannot rotate engine, hard lock / clunk at 80% rotation on crank.

Stuart B

Registered User
well I checked the head and this happened, hmmm....tut..

20181106_140552.jpg


I have been concerned over how much of the collector to remove the triangle is created to stop the exhaust from 4 travelling down to 1 and 2 isn't it

20181106_142331.jpg


hmmm I think I have run out of picture space? do I go through my previous threads and delete them? even though the file is only 174k it's saying the server cannot upload it.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Isn't cylinder 1 next to the cam belt?
That's 1 and 2 sharing the runner.


Screenshot_20181106-163336_Gallery.jpg



More collector pictures

Shared runner
Screenshot_20181106-163748_Gallery.jpg


4 is the one with the encroaching tube.
Screenshot_20181106-163726_Gallery.jpg


3 is open
Screenshot_20181106-163644_Gallery.jpg
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
yeah sorry my bad... looking at that in between making sense of the worlds worst MI data

Ok but either way the design of that runner setup meant it would misfire so open up as much as is practical really

Not ported one myself but I know . they take a bit of doing...

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
He he, yeah as I have to take the cams off again I will continue to drill it back. Doesn't that look neat and polished mine looks like I've tried to make a cake with gravel.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Are you talking about..

the triangle cut down

the runners opened up especially cylinder 1/2 and cylinder 4

The gasket width?

I am removing it again to rectify the issue with the dropped valve, so will do this some more, my concern was raised about cutting the triangle down too much.
 

Rainbird

Registered User
Main gasket hole - the diameter of the large bore from mani into turbo. Might just be the photos but it doesn't look like you've opened it up much, compared to the image S3AMJ posted.

IIRC Bill opens these up to 48mm/similar.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
my concern was raised about cutting the triangle down too much.
Don't need to drop that done anymore from what I can see but the openings into the collector could do with making a bit bigger

Inherently the design of this mani as cast restricts flow massively and is enough to cause a misfire at around 6k rpm

There is a fair amount of material but yo still have to be careful... these mani's respond to being ported which is why Bill puts the effort in on the kits he sells... its a crappy job fo sho but its really worth making sure is as good as you can get it without compromising wall integrity...

Don't go in gung ho... feel the wall thicknesses with your fingers and work at one opening at a time..

Biggest issue with these mani's is consistency... well the lack of!... have seen bill order in a few mani's at a time and each one be different in someway

This one of the reasons he only does them for the 380 kits

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Thanks Bill and Tuffty, i will revisit the Chinafold...

now this is disappointing!!!

I said I want to send the other non broken 7 back too, all I did was turn the exhaust cam over. With a 16mm spanner. Do you think this is just an unlucky fluke?

Screenshot_20181107-223236_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20181107-223241_Gallery.jpg
 

Rainbird

Registered User
What valves are they, can't remember you saying brand/model and assuming they're a cheaper alternative rather than Supertech/Ferrea?

If one's snapped from turning over the head alone then there's no way is be happy running those unless there was an obvious, legitimate reason behind it.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
They are supposed to be stelite with hardened tip (still £20 each), I'm actually fuming.. we'll see what they say... surely it must be just unlucky.. but what if another one is unlucky when the engine is running...

Screenshot_20181107-230826_eBay.jpg
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Are those valves even suitable for a turbo application? most pattern part valves aren't... OE turbo exhaust valves are sodium filled... I know of at least one occasion where a replacement valve was source from a well known motor factor as being a turbo valve only for it to fail a few weeks later... turns out it was a std NA valve sold as a turbo one due to it being the same fitment from the motor factors supplier and of course the motor factor not knowing its ar*e from its elbow...

The failure looks very much like installation error dude... sorry... have seen that very type of failure when the valve springs are not properly seated... typically its the inlets as they are small and easily catch the edge of the machined seating face but have also seen this on the exhaust side too...

It will all go back together when this happens so its not obvious that you have done it until you turn the engine over and typically within a minute or so the valve drops

Don't beat yourself up too much about it though dude as its an easy thing to do but not something everyone is aware of...

I religiously triple check all the springs prior to buttoning them up with the collets and have found on one or two occasions the springs not seated correctly...

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Thanks Tuffty, Well that's actually encouraging if it is a fitment issue. I was thinking about this wondering it it hadn't settled on the cap, but if there's a known reason that's okay. So will remove the others to check.
 

badger5

www.badger5.co.uk
Site Sponsor
if you mis-install spring (likely) then when valve goes to full lift, the one side of the spring coil binds (as it sat up on the step on the edge of the counterbore it should be sat IN) and then tweaks the valve sideways and the hardened collet groove error snaps off.

Use ONLY OE valves or Supertech imho... after market ones are just not worth the risk, especially BG shyte sold by the factors.
at least you discovered this on the bench and not on first start up!

this was issued years ago as many folks did this on installation error
http://badger-5.com/bin/5v-installation-note-supertech.pdf
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Thanks Bill, does the same issue exist with the inlet valves?


I take it even though the advert states 'genuine' AE means they are not. I assume Aftermarket Equivalent. It's not even buy cheap buy twice as they were obviously cheaper than supertech but not really cheap.
 

badger5

www.badger5.co.uk
Site Sponsor
Thanks Bill, does the same issue exist with the inlet valves?


I take it even though the advert states 'genuine' AE means they are not. I assume Aftermarket Equivalent. It's not even buy cheap buy twice as they were obviously cheaper than supertech but not really cheap.
yes. springs must sit flat in the spot face counterbores in the head

OE valves cost a little more than supertech fyi which makes it a no brainer for me..
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Hi. .

So I can see the problem and it looks like the spring had scratched some paint inside the failed / snapped valve. See here... at about 10pm.


Screenshot_20181108-185020_Gallery.jpg


But I don't understand how to stop it happening. There's nothing to locate the spring in? For the shim or the cap. Is it literally that I fitted it on the ledge, with some mucking about on the first couple that it hopped up?

If it's a simple as that it's quite a quick fix.

I have been 'assured' that these are suitable. Like the **** Chinese hotside, i don't mind being an experiment.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Okay thanks :) all that technical talk threw me. It is just a matter of ensuring its not hooked on the ledges.

Whilst the cams are off. What does the springyness or lack of any springyness of the lifters mean? Are these simply filled with oil during turn over for 20 seconds or so before initial start up. Or do I need to replace them? 2 exhaust ones are not springy and one or two inlet are a bit stiffer than others.

E.g. the one on the left bounces the one on the right doesn't move

Screenshot_20181108-200209_Gallery.jpg


Screenshot_20181108-200201_Gallery.jpg
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator

Stuart B

Registered User
I think you must have a typo in you advice there. (head on the engine or off the engine?)

I'm simply paranoid now something else will break :~|

Managed to see all the springs through various holes and only that inlet one looked "wonky". I'm surprised they dont settle themselves to be honest, but I expect they only get changed once in every 2,000,000 1.8T engines and then only 1 in every 500 have this issue.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
he he - i'm all good.. dont strain your neck with all the shaking..
My neck is used to it dude... Working in IT I am permanently disappointed by normos

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
It'll actually be interesting to know whether 'counter' in counter bore means 'opposite' or is related to a 'disc' shape.


I think I have been frightened into getting supertech valves, otherwise (If the engine works) I will always have that niggle in the back of my mind that these may fail. It's not like they are easily replaceable if they fail. It will all end at once.
 

badger5

www.badger5.co.uk
Site Sponsor
spring sit in its machined hole, level and flat not cocked up on an edge is the key thing regardless of make of valves used. installed incorrectly as you have experienced already (thankfully only on a bench) it WILL snap off the valve at bottom collet groove. Any and all valves will snap in this instance.

oe valves are sodium filled.. most cheap pattern part items are not.
The choice is simple, OE or uprated (like supertech, ferrea etc)
 

Stuart B

Registered User
So a little bit of advice as I am working through these, I press on the stem seals using the tool, but I don't hammer them on, is it just a press onto the guide? I don't want them falling off.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
so... rather than thinking I have wasted money on supertech valves (AEVI-1103 @ £260) - I am looking that I have only wasted money on the AE Stellite valves (they sell thousands) but they are inside an engine and if they fail the whole engine fails, and considering I spent £70 on a man in a van to top the high hedge this morning... meh....

but.. I am getting good at putting collets on valves...

a question about the use of sealant when fitting the cam and cam caps, the instructions Tuffy uploaded talked about sealant on all the double bearing caps but the Haynes manual only talks about the half moon which actually has little sealant pads on already.

thoughts?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
It 'counters' the flush surface
a question about the use of sealant when fitting the cam and cam caps, the instructions Tuffy uploaded talked about sealant on all the double bearing caps but the Haynes manual only talks about the half moon which actually has little sealant pads on already.
Do what I said

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
so is the dirtok sump sealant okay or a new sealant required - I dont want silicon lumps floating around... so this is literally to ensure the oil pressure to the cams is maintained - or a metal glue / vibration protection?
 
Top