Cannot rotate engine, hard lock / clunk at 80% rotation on crank.

Stuart B

Registered User
Thanks for the answers Tuffty.

I am surprised too Karl, when I was rotating the engine to see if I could see anything through the valves opening - they only seemed to move a tiny bit - this was only turning the engine over as well as it didn't start (due to forgetting to plug in injectors). you really couldn't make it up, but anyway opportunity to modify I suppose - so as the head needs to be repaired in any case I should remove the cams and valves making sure I mark them up then if all okay when head returned lap them back in, and make sure the cam chain is fitted correctly.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
okay so on turning the engine over the valves do actually come out quite a way so I can see it falling through, all them actually seat quite well, pretty lucky I guess I have gone through the haynes manual on removing the cams and tappets and then the valve, seats, collets and caps, I reckon for a beginner it is about 3 hours work to remove them and store them in a decent container making sure they stay together. then about double that to put back together after the head has been cleaned and repaired including a light lap. I see why it is easily £500 to be done by a professional.

20180828_182319.jpg
 

Rainbird

Registered User
I don't have personal experience with it so hopefully someone can confirm, but from what I've read it's not always clear to make out bent valves whilst still in the head as things shift around under spring pressure/etc. Once they're out you should be able to get a pretty decent idea though I'd imagine. Glad to see you embracing the excuse to give things a good bit of work :relaxed:
 

Stuart B

Registered User
hmm.. yeah, I can see that - there really is quite a lot of potential energy in this valve train- they all look so much better than my S3's head did though.

I assume if they are bent out of sight they will work okay for 20 minutes the wear unevenly etc... I have to be honest I originally assumed a bent valve would be all a-screw in the ports.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
hmm.. yeah, I can see that - there really is quite a lot of potential energy in this valve train- they all look so much better than my S3's head did though.

I assume if they are bent out of sight they will work okay for 20 minutes the wear unevenly etc... I have to be honest I originally assumed a bent valve would be all a-screw in the ports.
When I had my 'gear change' incident there were no signs the valves had bent until I removed them...

Engine ran fine and produced enough power to get me up to 'some' speed during a trip to mexico....

If you are thinking the valves have bent from contact with your minor indiscretion then chances are they are ok... the valves will most likely have been shut by the time that hit the squish deck and the extra 'gap' would mean that they would have been pretty far away even at a little lift...

Worth stripping the head though as valve guides will almost certainly be worn (exhaust side more than inlet) and the exhaust seats take a bit of a hammering

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
I don't think the repair to the head will be possible with the valves in situ. I visual sitting there enjoy grinding in the valves of an evening like someone from the 1950s with his BSA but in reality I will watch #netflix getting hammered on wife beater and oxycodone.

It's crazy that valve seats are included in head gasket kits but are such a pain to get to.
 

badger5

www.badger5.co.uk
Site Sponsor
I don't think the repair to the head will be possible with the valves in situ. I visual sitting there enjoy grinding in the valves of an evening like someone from the 1950s with his BSA but in reality I will watch #netflix getting hammered on wife beater and oxycodone.

It's crazy that valve seats are included in head gasket kits but are such a pain to get to.
stem seals you mean right?

not valve seats
 

Stuart B

Registered User
That's right, I might even have them somewhere from when I did my HG on the S3 and didn't change them. Are they made of 'olite' like starter motor bushes?

So planning my engine build would I be giving myself a whole lot off trouble if I did rods, fixed the head, put the head on to protect the new parts. Then when I have saved my pension up and got a hybrid and chinafold, I fit the manifold and then the turbo in via the gearbox side? Or would I be better off fitting the turbo and downpipe before the head and manifold?

I'm going to get this to hold the cams together, unless anyone can suggest a simpler safe solution?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/262922923762
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
That's right, I might even have them somewhere from when I did my HG on the S3 and didn't change them. Are they made of 'olite' like starter motor bushes?

So planning my engine build would I be giving myself a whole lot off trouble if I did rods, fixed the head, put the head on to protect the new parts. Then when I have saved my pension up and got a hybrid and chinafold, I fit the manifold and then the turbo in via the gearbox side? Or would I be better off fitting the turbo and downpipe before the head and manifold?

I'm going to get this to hold the cams together, unless anyone can suggest a simpler safe solution?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/262922923762
Stem seals are made of rubber

If the heads off then fit the manifold and turbo... If not then I believe the China fold is relatively easy to fit with the head on the engine

You don't need a tool the hold the cams... The chain does that

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
I'm talking about 'to undo the cam sprocket, to remove the cams to remove the tappets to remove the valves', or is the Haynes confusing me and I can just jam something somewhere or remove the cam sprocket with the cams?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Never ever used kit like that on 20v head builds and I have have done loads .. You align using the timing marks on the cams and by counting the rollers on the chain...

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Ahhh... I see I can remove 12 in the image and keep the timing cam sprocket connected to the exhaust cam.

Soz...

Screenshot_20180829-213242_Gallery.jpg
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Okay thanks, so if number 3 exhaust cam seal also needs changing I assume I can still make something to lock the sprocket to remove the bolt, or should the seal always be renewed?


I'm wondering about changing the exhaust valves whilst I'm at it, as I know these hybrids generate a lot of heat, but the stock k04 also goes over 900 degrees C or is it more than just heat they handle?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Ok... finally makes sense why you are on about cam locking tools... I held my cam in a vice (cardboard and rags etc to protect the lobes) to swap the pulley and replace the seal on the exhaust... you will need to replace the bolt...

The inlet cam bolt for the trigger wheel is not as tight but the same method as above can be used..

Do NOT undo the cams caps sequentially... I normally remove the double cap belt end, caps with cam timing marks gearbox end and cyl 1 and 3's caps... you then need to walk the cam up undo the remaining caps slowly so it come up evenly as some lobes will be under tension... not doing this will allow the cam to rise at an angle damaging the cam bearing faces of the head

Same for both cams, also you tighten the cams back in using the same procedure...

Torque for the cap bolts is only 10nm... do not overtighten as they will snap...

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Thanks Tuffty, I will follow your guide for removal order. I'm not being funny but I twisted my half inch socket t30 bit trying to undo these, I have managed to loosen 3 or 4 of these by a quarter turn. I assume it's because the t-30 was only good for deep bolts - I'll get another one from halfords - for the weekend.

I assume a universal spring compressor should be okay to use? - need to pop into wilko to get some plastic containers as my biggest fear is grandchildren and / or dogs tails knocking over whatever I will keep the bits in :D
 

Stuart B

Registered User
thanks that's perfect I was looking at that on ebay earlier - I will try my work colleague's one first I'll see what it looks like tomorrow.

bought a Sealey torque wrench for 2-25NM for the lower rated bolts etc, as mine only starts from 25nm and I made the mistake buy setting it to it's lowest line and it only seemed to work above about 30 - bit of a worry when it comes to the rods as the instructions for the arp bolts are quite specific - so I will need to make sure it is comparable with my neighbours I suppose.

not bad for 30 quid

upload_2018-8-30_22-58-44.png


I will keep my weekly goals reachable.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Thanks for the advice over stripping this in preparation. Well the centre inlet valve in cylinder 4 is bent, that explains why so difficult to turn over. You can tell immediately as the others all slide straight out. (Maybe another parts bin favour ;) ( i'm saving up Bill, and have realised that my wife may get so annoyed that I have the only car now she'll encourage me to push on :) )

What I could do with is some advice over removal and fitting on the stem seals I have removed all the exhaust, one wasn't actually fitted properly it was on the valve instead of pressed onto the sleeve. Is there a special tool? Or just long nosed pliers?

Then I think I am ready to find someone to clean and repair it.


Screenshot_20180901-192449_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20180901-192500_Gallery.jpg


Will aim to remove the pistons tomorrow. :)

Then need to try and get the timing belt pulley and cam shaft sensor bolts off to change those seals.
 

superkarl

MAN OF STEEL
There is a special tool for the stem seals yes, please DONT use pliers. it’s fairly basic though as it’s just a plunger of sorts, that allows you to press on/off the seals onto the guides. Lots of valve spring compressor tools come with them actually.

You’ll prob need to replace the guide on that centre valve, if it’s badly bent it will have worn the softer guide.

I happened to have valve stem clearances on my phone (attached)
d079e4a61a852df7f2c5e4bc41bfe565.png

Ahhhh tits, that’s only exhaust valves


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Stuart B

Registered User
remember the engine never really ran as it couldn't turn over although I have turned it over about 8 times after removal to photo the valve opening and of course pushed it out, this is the extent of the bend.

20180901_233337.jpg



I am miles off this but, dont have a clue how my massive fingers will be able to put those tiny collets back on? got a tool from amazon prime to remove the stem seals, thanks for the advice :)


BTW... anyone put their head in the dishwasher?
 

superkarl

MAN OF STEEL
I am miles off this but, dont have a clue how my massive fingers will be able to put those tiny collets back on? got a tool from amazon prime to remove the stem seals, thanks for the advice :)


BTW... anyone put their head in the dishwasher?

A small flat blade screw driver and a pot of sticky grease is what I use to get the collets back on

Yeh I’ve heard of a few people doing that lol. Good luck explaining that to the wife


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Stuart B

Registered User
So the fairy tablets won't damage it?

Since wearing glasses for close work I find I sweat and it drips and steams up my glasses. The advantage is I don't get so much under car dirt or angle grinder bits going in my eyes. Some of the inlet manifold gaps are tiny.
 
You should be fine putting it in the dishwasher mate, I’ve put stuff in the dishwasher is the past, rocker covers, various other “small” parts. I’d try removing most of the crud and oil from the head first before doing it though. It’s effectively steam cleaning it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Okay thanks, once I've removed the rest of the stem seals i might do that. Although I'm sure the head repair place will put it into a degreaser overnight.


Any advice on removing the plastic cam cover plastic extension for the oil filler cap or is it advisable to keep this in place as some form of extra separator? It looks like its got a retaining bar, which I don't want to break, but want it removed to clean and paint.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Thanks got that off now too, Going to use a steam cleaner to try and clear off the grime. Pushed the egt wires back into the probe and crimped, but i doubt it'll work, it's going to be easy to tell.

Removed the pistons ready to be cleaned, I assume it's better to put than back in the same cylinders or does it not matter at all?

I am almost at the point where I need to commit to buy stuff. I'm going to put on my catch can to make sure low chance for leaks under the manifold.

Screenshot_20180902-170005_Gallery.jpg
 

superkarl

MAN OF STEEL
Skirts on the pistons look in good condition from what I can see. That bodes well for the cylinders


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Stuart B

Registered User
My neighbour 'an engineer' for about 35 years and cnc programmer, popped over for an update and looked at the bores, asked how many miles the car had done, i said 116k and he said "its amazing its still got the original 'cross hatch'" <-- or whatever the right term is.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Hi a couple more questions....

1.
Has anybody successfully split and repaired the electric coolant after-run pump? Mine wasn't working and if I'm investing so much on a new turbo i want to make sure its as good as it could be.

2.
Should the oil pump be changed whilst it's all apart? Or only off there's some doubts in efficiency.


3. I have all the tappets in plastic containers, I'm sure the Haynes manual recommended they were submerged in oil?

4. Should the pistons be put back into their original cylinders (1-3 only in my case) or does that not really matter?

Thanks :)
 

Alan999

Registered User
not sure if the same is applicable to the latest piston formats but when we cleaned pistons years ago we always left an eight inch band uncleaned around the edges for seal
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Not a whole head no but it does work :D

View attachment 164410

And this is the kit I bought for doing stem seals , removal and installing:)

View attachment 164411
Yeah that's the one I got, it turns a ball ache into 5 seconds each, I've even practiced putting a stem seal back in using the 6mm plunger thing.

Easy peasy... just need to start ordering some bits now :| I'm going to grind off the rusted bolt heads in the turbo coolant pump even just to see why it broke, e.g. seized, damage, age
 

superkarl

MAN OF STEEL
Yeah that's the one I got, it turns a ball ache into 5 seconds each, I've even practiced putting a stem seal back in using the 6mm plunger thing.

Easy peasy... just need to start ordering some bits now :| I'm going to grind off the rusted bolt heads in the turbo coolant pump even just to see why it broke, e.g. seized, damage, age

I recall a guide on refurbing one, give it a search. It may have been Aussie Sam


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Top