Cannot rotate engine, hard lock / clunk at 80% rotation on crank.

Stuart B

Registered User
So I am pretty sure a 5mm Allen bit fell through the unbunged starter ring hole when I repaired the alternator freewheel pulley on my TT (Come on its the same) - you need to remove the inlet manifold and I lost a bit from the screwdriver.

So I am going to remove the starter motor and buy an endoscope to have a look to see if it is retrievable.

I'm thinking of painting every ring gear 'hole to make sure I have checked them and try and work out ' what time' is blocked.

I'm hoping there is a ledge or similar where this allenbit has jammed itself, or maybe it's stuck in the actual ring gear and can't get past the starter motor.

Fricken annoying
 

Prawn

My other car is a MINI!!!!
Bad news Stuart!

Is it definitely the starter hole it's fallen down? Or any danger it was down into the head whilst the inlet was off?

If definitely the starter hole when I'd try rotating back and forward a good bit on the hope it'll wiggle free!

Good luck!
 

Stuart B

Registered User
The inlet wasn't off I was undoing the right hand 2nd in allen bolt when I lost it. So annoyed i checked but had no idea if it was in the bolt falling on the way to the tray, where i put the screwdriver down. I checked all around the oil filter. The picture shows a suspicious looking scratch on the ring gear.

Screenshot_20180813-133214_Gallery.jpg


I am hoping that it is jammed in the ring teeth and rotates around getting stuck on a lip or similar around the viewing hole, and will be retrievable through the starter motor hole. But the clunk noise sounds like it's coming from the firewall side of the bellhousing.

Just a blessing I suppose, I forgot to plug in the injectors otherwise the engine might have started just as it got jammed.

Do you know if it's possible to split bellhousing by only an inch or so?
 
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Stuart B

Registered User
Also as the engine turned over for about 10 seconds before this jammed scenario points to something moving and now locking it, might be damage to one of the teeth poking out or similar.
 

Rainbird

Registered User
Do you know if it's possible to split bellhousing by only an inch or so?

You can slacken off the gearbox-to-block bolts a touch, but with driveshafts in situ I don't know how much wiggle you'll be able to get. Don't go any further than is necessary though or you'll disengage the flywheel from the gearbox input shaft spline and potentially make life even more awkward than it already is. If you can be entirely sure it's just a small bolt and it's sat at the bottom of the bellhousing then you may get away with it.

Can you get a little endoscope in there to inspect and confirm your suspicions? I've got a small USB one somewhere with LEDs around the end that was about £2 many moons ago - something of the sort might save some time and effort.
 

Vex182

1x S3 and 3x Fiestas.
Would dropping the sump show where this has fell as you can see the end of the bell housing then.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
how do you manage that when the alternators the other side of the engine?

Well you need to remove the inlet manifold to remove the alternator and I used a multi bit driver. Typically, I covered the dipstick hole but honestly didn't see that exposed under the loom.

Starter motor off after work, bore / endoscope in post for tomorrow.

I'm hoping the crazy 1mm clearance protecting the starter will be a hint, for what's stopping the rotation.


Screenshot_20180813-224511_Video Player.jpg
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Would dropping the sump show where this has fell as you can see the end of the bell housing then.

That's brilliant... as I have most of a rotation If that exposes an inch of the ring gear it'll also give access to the other side of the bell housing, if not retrievable via the starter motor I will drop the sump. It'll be an excuse to clear the pick up, replace the sump as this one had been re-tapped. It'll also give access to the other side of the ring gear.

Thanks, I'm actually boeyed by these options
 

Stuart B

Registered User
I suppose I may as well have a browse around the clutch and slave cylinder when I get the 'scope delivered too..


Thinking and a new website 'guess th e orifice.com' will totally own 'armpit or ***.com'
 

Stuart B

Registered User
You can slacken off the gearbox-to-block bolts a touch, but with driveshafts in situ I don't know how much wiggle you'll be able to get. Don't go any further than is necessary though or you'll disengage the flywheel from the gearbox input shaft spline and potentially make life even more awkward than it already is. If you can be entirely sure it's just a small bolt and it's sat at the bottom of the bellhousing then you may get away with it.

Can you get a little endoscope in there to inspect and confirm your suspicions? I've got a small USB one somewhere with LEDs around the end that was about £2 many moons ago - something of the sort might save some time and effort.

Thanks, I am expecting a borescope tomorrow to go in through the starter-motor hole. Whatever is stopping it, I am confident is from this. I can turn the engine from 6pm clockwise to 5pm and back to 6pm and the stop is not valves or head related with a breaker bar I could almost move the car from the jacks, it's a physical stop.
 

Tj 0785

Registered User
VCDS Map User
Bronze Supporter
Silver Supporter
Well you need to remove the inlet manifold to remove the alternator and I used a multi bit driver. Typically, I covered the dipstick hole but honestly didn't see that exposed under the loom.

Starter motor off after work, bore / endoscope in post for tomorrow.

I'm hoping the crazy 1mm clearance protecting the starter will be a hint, for what's stopping the rotation.


View attachment 162773
I changed my alternator with out removing the inlet manifold think I just removed the water bottle
 

Stuart B

Registered User
I was thinking about this, this morning, slightly different on the TT you could maybe manage it by removing the bumper, head light, power steering canister. Did you have to remove the tensioner. After doing the FMIC last weekend the bumper is much quicker.

It was easy all from the top. Apart from this nightmare..
 

lea323ci

Registered User
I changed my alternator with out removing the inlet manifold think I just removed the water bottle

I also removed my alternator without removing inlet manifold, just water bottle and engine mount to raise engine up a bit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Stuart B

Registered User
it would have been easier undoing the engine mount too to lift the engine, but it did only take two hours to remove and an hour to put back after changing the pulley, and I needed to use a long screwdriver to loosen the alternator, and you still would have struggled to get to the back of the alternator without removing the dipstick and bracket. with a TT the water bottle is in the wing because the head light take's that space. even after all of this the alternator might be knackered from overheating but at £460 I took a flier on the pulley first.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
jesus…… there's not enough access through the starter motor hole.... so.... I knew an old lady who swallowed a fly... sump mostly off I think all the bolts are off... may as well change the dog bone mount for my powerflex S3 mount (I bet it snaps in the chassis) and do the CV boot (I was putting that off until I knew whether the alternator needed "fully" replacing.

what I would love to hear from experience is do I buy some form of tiny 10mm narrow offset socket? the bolts dont undo or do up properly.. it is like they drew a picture of what they wanted and then the engineers thought they saw a shadow so moved the bolts into a stupid place!!!

also.. do I simply lever this apart? have undone the three 16mm bolts, the two 5mm Allen bolts for the turbo gravity return hard pipe and about 16 10mm bolts from around the sump including the painful 4 on the bellhousing side.

I am not sure if I am supposed to tap, heat, lever, poke etc the sump from the engine? and is it on a raised shelf or flush with the bottom of the block?
 
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Vex182

1x S3 and 3x Fiestas.
jesus…… there's not enough access through the starter motor hole.... so.... I knew an old lady who swallowed a fly... sump mostly off I think all the bolts are off... may as well change the dog bone mount for my powerflex S3 mount (I bet it snaps in the chassis) and do the CV boot (I was putting that off until I knew whether the alternator needed "fully" replacing.

what I would love to hear from experience is do I buy some form of tiny 10mm narrow offset socket? the bolts dont undo or do up properly.. it is like they drew a picture of what they wanted and then the engineers thought they saw a shadow so moved the bolts into a stupid place!!!

also.. do I simply lever this apart? have undone the three 16mm bolts, the two 5mm Allen bolts for the turbo gravity return hard pipe and about 16 10mm bolts from around the sump including the painful 4 on the bellhousing side.

I am not sure if I am supposed to tap, heat, lever, poke etc the sump from the engine? and is it on a raised shelf or flush with the bottom of the block?
It’s flush with the block, I tapped it and also gently prided mine off with a screwdriver. It’s the sealant that’s holding it on.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Well sump off, not much to see from the bell housing, it's all really tight will use the endoscope tomorrow to try and look around. Also can check bottom-end just in case out somehow was on the tissue protecting the dip stick hole and flicked in.

The sump has quite a bit of **** in after the sump plug hole had been re-tapped.

Screenshot_20180815-214905_Gallery.jpg



To be fair I'm only about 20 bolts away from dropping the gearbox and bellhousing now.

So this is what'll happen.
1. I will notice one of the rods is bent.
2. I will have to take the gearbox off

No point it taking gearbox off and not changing clutch, pressure plate etc

No point in putting the engine back together knowing it's got a bent rod. No point in changing rods for stock, whilst the head is off i may add well fit my 3inch downpipe, no point in having forged rods without a more powerful turbo - so hybrid turbo and manifold. No point in having stock valves so new valves, no point in taking head apart without proffesional service, no point in all that without the fuel so new injectors and pump.
 

Stuart B

Registered User
a little cheaper you mean - and we all spend the extra money on velvet waistcoats, tweed hats and driving gloves.
I need to address the current issue first, if I can turn a £24 repair into this nightmare what else will I manage, updating the bottom end? it's as if my hands are made of these...




To be fair I have all the correct tools to do the head gasket, and maybe I could forget about using the TT as a daily driver for a few weeks, and modify it. All of this skirting around trying to save time and effort is taking more time and effort. I spent 40 minutes washing engine oil out of my hair last night and my pillow just smelt like old dirty engine oil - I dreamt about it giving me cancer.

what should be included in a simple forged rod update?

eg
1 - rods and bearings
2 - 1 + piston rings
3 - ???
 
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<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
1+ piston rings?

Head gasket, head bolts, arguably any other gasket you have to remove (turbo/inlet/that kinda thing)

Cam belt and water pump if not been done recently..

Obvs depends on how far you want to go...

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Yeah I'm happy with the top end, I only did cam belt, water pump etc in May. And head gasket on the s3...

It's really more about....
Just rods, bolts and bearings or some stuff for the cylinders too e.g. the rings as they need to come off anyway.

None of this might be required if I miraculously dislodge the issue, although I have warned my wife we might need to share the Mazda. :D
 

Stuart B

Registered User
grrrr

well I reckon the screwdriver bit was sitting on a shelf and fell into cylinder 4 through the inlet, when I lifted the inlet away? then after the car wouldn't start just turning over, I pushed it off the ramps assuming low fuel level and it fell into the engine.

I have held cardboard under the pressure place and no disturbances.

http://my-worst-car.co.uk/grrr/20180816_190411.mp4

via the spark plug hole with the borescope - but annoyingly I couldn't get the mirror in too.



Screenshot_20180816-222050_Gallery.jpg


Screenshot_20180816-222036_Gallery.jpg



I suppose the inlet has to come off to remove the head in any case so I will have a fish around. if the head has to come off then the sump is already off I suppose modifications :D :D
 

Prawn

My other car is a MINI!!!!
Oh dear! That's not too cool stuart!

That contact is from a valve head. perhaps the screwdriver bit has lodged in the valve opening and stopped it shutting, then the piston had hit the valve and that's the clunk you've got.

Definitely time to pull the head I'd say. You're looking at a bent valve at the very least.

Its now or never. I'd order those rods!
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Yeah, I totally agree, what I noticed too is when rotating the engine with the sump off there is quite a lot of hissing from all cylinders, i am assuming this is also related to the dipstick always being a couple of cm's raised.

So that's a typical valve marking? It's on the left centre but also that other mark on the right.

Thanks.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
So that's a typical valve marking? It's on the left centre but also that other mark on the right.
I wouldn't say its a typical valve strike mark.... Not uniform enough... If the valve has let go I'd expect more carnage and bits of valve..

<tuffty/>
 

Stuart B

Registered User
is an impact driver NOT recommended on those 3 manifold to turbo bolts, you might recall one got rounded when I did the HG on the S3 and I want to ensure I plan the simple approach of this carefully - so to keep it to 1 hour instead of 5 :D
 

Stuart B

Registered User
Grrr so I was tempted to check the timing belt as soon as I had the problem, does it looks line the belt has hopped a couple of teeth? Although the engine turns clockwise so how has the cam gone in front of the crank?

I think there is more to this than meets the eye! And maybe the cam and crank timing going out (assuming that's the case) was caused by the first issue.

Screenshot_20180818-133058_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20180818-133041_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20180818-133029_Gallery.jpg
 

superkarl

MAN OF STEEL
Yeah, I totally agree, what I noticed too is when rotating the engine with the sump off there is quite a lot of hissing from all cylinders, i am assuming this is also related to the dipstick always being a couple of cm's raised.

So that's a typical valve marking? It's on the left centre but also that other mark on the right.

Thanks.
Doesn’t look typical to me
 

Stuart B

Registered User
So I'm still going to soldier on and see what's what. So obviously struggling with the three manifold to turbo bolts. This might seem a bit leftfield but I have had a feel around and the downpipe bolts feel looks new... has anyone removed the head + manifold and turbo together?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
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