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Build: S3 Hybrid build thread

tomsko Nov 16, 2018

  1. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Hey guys, as you might have noticed in my previous thread - I blew up my S3 engine, so now I am ready to build it again. This time correctly and with rods! Aiming to achieve 300hp+. 350 would be perfect.

    I will keep posting updates about my progress in here. To recap, here are the parts I already have on the car:
    • 3" de-cat downpipe
    • 300hp+ rated K04 Hybrid
    • Badger5 TIP
    • FMIC
    • Redone intercooler piping
    • K&N panel filter
    Parts I have on my shopping list:
    • 550cc Bosh (or similar) injectors
    • 4BAR fuel pressure regulator
    • Forged rods (not sure which yet)
    • Exhaust manifold (also not sure which yet)
    • Walbro 255lph inline fuel pump
    So here are a few things I would like to ask:
    1. If replacing rods & injectors + I have the S3 cams, do I actually need a new S3 engine? Or can I pick up some other 1.8T engine for cheaper? If so, which?
    2. What aftermarket exhaust manifolds will keep the same turbo placement spot (so I don't have to re-do the downpipe)?
    3. Do I want the rifle drilled rods?
    4. Is there something I missed in the parts list?
    5. I have the Badger5 TIP, but my car is LHD. The TIP is deformed by brake lines pressing in on it. Should I leave it or just put the smaller sized silicone TIP instead to save myself from potential bigger problems.
    Thanks.
     
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  3. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+ Team Brilliant Black Audi S3

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    1. What condition is your current engine in, is it repairable with new rods, etc? If not then yes a new engine is more than likely required.
    2.Chinafold manifold is your best bet, but requires a lot of work in order for it to fit correctly, lots of carbide grinding and smoothing.
    3.Yes you most definitely want rifle drilled rods
    4.lots of other bits involved, exhaust valves as a minimum when running hybrid.
    5.Dont put a smaller TIP on. Bigger the better, Badger5 TIP is perfect, I believe there is a way of fitting these on LHD cars properly.


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  4. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    1. The engine is not repairable. I need a new one so I want to know if I must buy the 210-225HP one or 150-180HP engines will also work for up-to 350HP. Not sure if 150-180HP have the forged pistons & crank. But then again up to 350HP also non-forged should be good from what I have red.
    2. Ok, but overall all manifolds should keep the same OEM turbo positioning, and I can plug&play my current downpipe?
    3. Ok, thanks. Why is that?
    4. I was under the impression that exhaust valves can handle around 400hp & 7200rpm. But 350 does get near the limit so you are right.
    5. Ok, then we will try to make the Badger5 TIP fit properly
     
  5. Alex C

    Alex C Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Audi S3

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    3. to lubricate the small end of the rod
     
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  6. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    I'm in the midst of building mine (for the first time) and your list did make it look a simple job only involving a few bits and bobs.

    I am porting a chinafold manifold currently.
    Have PEC rifle drilled rods for 20mm wrist pin.
    New big end bearings
    New rings
    New inconel exhaust valves
    Cleaned pick-up pipe
    New sump
    New coolant flange
    New after run pump.
    New pcv pipework for catch can
    Recent water pump and timing belt
    Head gasket set set including stem seals (actually bought another set as removed several times from head)
    Head skimming (and repair)
    New vacuum pipe work.
    New cam pulley bolt
    10 litres of Miller's run in oil
    5 litres of wilko mineral oil
    New oil filters
    A variety of crush washers, o-rings, jubilee clips and spring clips etc.

    Still need fuel injectors and pump after run in. Real oil

    Already had B5 tip, cosworth cone filter and heat sheild, fitted FMIC and 3 inch downpipe and 200 cel cat. Recent brake pads and discs and all round suspension, recent 0.7mm gapped ngkbkr7 plugs

    Stock s3 cat back is apparently rated at ~300bhp, mine is a TT i expect it is similarly rated. Also I haven't yet changed the clutch, being a pessimist I want to try and run the car successfully before spending out on some other items but as your engine is being removed it's a no brainer to change clutch and fly wheel too.

    1.8T compatibility
    S3 has some 1.5mm shims under exhaust valve springs and 20mm piston wrist pins.

    Some 210/225 engines have VVT and EGT (BAM/AMK) others don't (APX/APY)

    If you don't know the engine history you probably should change oil pump too along with head service.

    As you don't know why your last engine pushed all the oil into the boost circuit probably advisable to change the oil and coolant turbo hoses too?

    Best of luck - these projects become pretty expensive.
     
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  7. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    trim at turbo end like others have done.
    it will always be very tight on lhd cars
     
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  8. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Thanks! Your list is very helpful. I will try and match some of the parts you are going for. As for cat-back, I think I will just cut out the middle silencer of stock exhaust. Maybe modify the rear silencer as well.

    Is VVT beneficial to have on hybrid build like mine & yours?

    I am pretty sure the intake was full of oil because of the really dead turbo. The propellers were moving about 1cm in-out on the axis. But sure, I will change almost all piping anyway. Just to be safe.

    As for the flywheel & clutch. I think I will cheap out of this upgrade for now, because I installed new OEM flywheel&clutch about 2,000km ago so its almost brand new. First have to kill it before I upgrade!

    Indeed it will get expensive. I'm thinking between 5-7k€ including labor.
     
  9. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    So I'm starting to order some parts. I still don't know what exhaust manifold to get! Can anyone recommend me one in around 300€ range? I need the manifold to keep the OEM turbo placement so I can fit my downpipe
     
  10. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+ Team Brilliant Black Audi S3

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    Chinafold is your only option really bud. There are various other (stainless steel) ones available but many if not all crack.


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  11. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Could you please show me an example of Chinafold? Just to be sure :thumbs up:
     
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  13. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+ Team Brilliant Black Audi S3

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    https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1081...=4990amp-DUpmquDBSH7N8iHmRry1Nw1544261939359
    Aliexpress is where you’d likely be able to buy one.... but I don’t know what the time scale is on delivery.

    If you want it in a hurry and don’t mind spending the extra money...
    https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/401500403002


    This is the finished article.... look at the pictures of the manifold. There is ALOT of work involved getting the manifold port matched and smoothed out internally.

    https://badger5.co.uk/turbo-exhaus...ld-aet-k04-380-v2-2-tipexchangespecial-order

    You could do what I did and just buy the exact package that Badger5 supply in the link above. Comes with everything, port matched chinafold, AET K04-380 hybrid turbo, actuator and oversized TIP.



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    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  14. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    Aliexpress delivered mine in about 4 or 5 days.
    £210 with delivery charge.
    The £420 version still needs all the work doing.
     
  15. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+ Team Brilliant Black Audi S3

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    That’s really quick! I was expecting weeks being as it’s coming from China, custom charges, etc.

    Yeah the eBay one from Germany does need all the work done still, just thought it was an option for a quicker delivery.

    You know more than anyone the work involved mate haha.




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  16. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Thanks! What if I decide to not do any work on the Chinafold, or do the work but assume not the greatest result, will it still be worth the upgrade from OEM?

    I would get the full package from Badger, but I already have the Hybrid :/
     
  17. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+ Team Brilliant Black Audi S3

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    If your going to be using your hybrid turbo, you HAVE to carry out the work on the chinafold. Sometimes the mating isn’t very good on the head side, so some of the holes for the studs need to be elongated, the manifold to head chambers might need port matching, the collector will definitely need opening or you will suffer from misfires and the collector to turbo hotside will need port matching and opening up to suit the turbo. Plus you’ll need a flat finish to the turbo and manifold mate up without any gaps as you tend not to use a gasket between them, which is something I only recently found out.

    I’d highly recommend reading @Stuart B thread as this is what he’s been doing with the exact same manifold we are talking about.


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  18. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    I might have been lucky and ordered before a collection for despatch?

    It's not that much work (well for minimum which is what I did) a few hours and then rinse out the swarf.

    You can buy 6mm carbide drill bits from Amazon for about £10.

    I think some of the changes are important. If you read bill@ badger5 explanation of the back pressure causing misfires in the N/A inlet cam post.
     
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  19. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Ok, thanks guys.

    Just early morning thought here - What do you think about a adding bit of NOS after the peak torque..? Even possible with stock ECU? With exhaust valves and rods I should be fine if I keep it up to 400hp..?
     
  20. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    I'm placing my orders for all the parts tomorrow.
    What's the story with cams from N/A engine?

    Btw thanks again for the full list Stuart, I copied most of it :)
     
  21. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    So I have decided to go with OEM exhaust manifold and port that as much as possible. I don't want to risk misfires with Chinafold and only gain small power increase. I'm adding Bosh 044 instead of the walbro - just to have the extra room. Rods will be the Hurricane i-Beam Rifle drilled. Also decided to go with Siemens 630cc injectors and might drop in the cams from N/A 1.8. Still want to do a bit of research on this.

    If You plan to use big turbo and low boost, use both cams, if You plan to use smaller turbo and high boost, use only ex cam. If You plan to use tiny turbo and ridiculous boost, use only intake cam.

    Other than that I'm strongly starting to lean towards standalone ECU, as we don't have any good tuners for this ECU in Latvia. I think I will go with VEMS as it's the most common around here. Should be able to get all the gauges working too. Plus this will allow me to add 75-100 nitrous shot which I'm also considering.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  22. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    Ignitron ecu. plug and play me7.5 unit.
    second to none
     
  23. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    I noticed this ECU on your website, I will take a look at it.
    Could you briefly explain where the limitations of the original start?

    I'm also now building my shipping basket on your website and choosing what gaskets and bearings to order and I'm not sure if I want something stronger for aftermarket or the original parts. It would be great if you did a bit of explanation on your website next to each part, on why one would want to opt-in for the stronger, more expensive part.

    Currently the dilemma is between Original or ACL Race Main bearings & big end bearings. As well as Athena multilayer steel head gasket vs original Elring gasket. Same question about piston rings - Kolbenschmidt KS vs original.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  24. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    you need to do your own research on building an engine to choose parts from. We list items we use ourselves on our builds... so nothing listed is below par.. I wont be adding descriptions, as thats just my opinion, you should make your own judgement if building your own engine.

    MAFless the proper way, using correct scaled map sensor for load, and ease of tuning, data logging second to none (if self tuning), more safety options possible than standard ecu.. and something you can do yourself (unlike me7.5). We use and advise Ignitron on anything which will run past std 80mm MAF capability.. We have not found larger mafs to be good to tune nor reliable, and too much dependance on the maf on oe ecu, only limited map sensor range also of 1.5bar boost max.. Its are choice to ditch me7 in favour of Ignitron because of these reasons. Better tuning platform.
     
  25. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Thanks Badger. I will discuss this ECU with some tuners I know from around here.


    Today we inspected the engine (I bought used one from TT225 donor). Cylinder walls seem in very good condition, so we are going to slightly hone them and fit new rings to the existing pistons. I want to be sure the pistons in this engine are the forged ones and I wasn't ripped off with 150HP or 180HP engine.

    The engine code is APX which is the older version of TT225 without the VVT. The code on piston is 81P30 and the pin is 20mm - can anyone confirm this is the forged piston?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  26. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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  27. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    none of the 1.8t pistons are "forged", they are pressure die cast which in translation on some forums has turned them into "forged". They are'nt... They are very good however.
     
  28. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Today the mechanic messaged me that he checked rest of the pistons and one is different, from another engine! Also the block seems to have been honed previously and the crankshaft is "unusable" in his words. I don't have any more details of what he meant with "unusable" yet but news are definitely not good.
    Going with bigger pistons and 2.0FSI crank start to make sense...
     
  29. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    Have a look at Ian G thread he created his stroker with a TFSI crank. With all this expense why not also get a 500 - 600 bhp turbo?
     
  30. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+ Team Brilliant Black Audi S3

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    Really bad luck on the engine dude, until you start stripping them down you never know what you’ve got. Sometimes even the guys selling them don’t even know. I found this out after buying an RB26DETT for my R32 Skyline many years ago. Completely cobbled together.


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  31. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    So I will be able to save the crank from my old engine. Now the problem is the pistons. I would like to put new ones in just to be safe, and I found these which are priced very reasonably and are a 0.5mm oversized which is good - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kolben-Set...=item23859a6e46:g:rxIAAOSw8lpZLCaz:rk:11:pf:0
    However they don't tell the manufacturer anywhere on the website. All it says is "OEM Quality". I tried to call them but their offices are closed for today so I will try again tomorrow. The seller seems very reputable though.

    I got worried about the quality of these pistons because they are 2x cheaper than other listings for the pistons saying "Mahle" which is definitely trustable quality manufacturer. (example https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Pistones...h=item41f5f42433:g:T3YAAOSwXOhaWPla:rk:2:pf:0 )

    So what do you guys think..? If you believe these 300$ ones are too risky I will just go with aftermarked forged pistons instead of Mahle OEM ones because the price is almost the same.

    Edit: Seems like the seller of these 300$ pistons actually is the manufacturer. It's Tornau Motoren from Germany. Anyone heard of them and their quality?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  32. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    to me if not mahle , or after market oversize forged ones I wouldn't use them personally
     
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  34. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Alright, so I will go with oversize forged pistons. I wont stroke though as I already have the rods. I’m thinking 82.5mm, but there is conflicting info on the 82.5mm pistons. Some say standard headgasket can be used with them and others say you need a different one starting from 82.5mm. Can you please clarify this?

    Now Im starting to feel silly with fully built engine and just a hybrid turbo...oh well, when the turbo dies or I get the need for speed I can upgrade then.
     
  35. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    rods don't change if you go stroker dude.. just crank and oil drive gear required (and stroker pistons, same price as other forged pistons)

    I don't recommend stroker k04... makes car into a diesel torque delivery. chokes out the k04 early on

    max bore size you can go to on std head gasket is 82.5mm, so you have options from the std 81mm
     
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  36. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Oh, my bad I thought I also need different rods. I will consider stroking too in this case..

    Is it just the stroker that that makses ko4 feel this way or any displacement increase (boring) does the same?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  37. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    k04-02x is a small unit... and in my experience of doing a couple of stroker k04 hybrids, they are the wrong mix of parts... If you like instant torque but limited rev ranged (where hotside chokes) then thats what you end up with. Not good.
     
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  38. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Thanks Badger5,

    I decided not to go stroker. However I will bore to 82.5mm and aim for around 9.3:1 compression. I will still do the k04 on this build initially but that's just the starting point. Sooner or later I will upgrade to something bigger, standalone ECU (probably VEMS), E85 (thinking flex fuel), intake & exhaust and aim for 350-400WHP. I don't think I will go beyond that ever.

    But, again, for start I will go with the Hybrid k04. Just so I don't have to go crazy with all the extra supporting mods required.

    Also, I forgot to mention that I won't do the chinafold. It just seems too much work for minor gains + risk of misfires. I won't even port the stock manifold. When I go big turbo I will do custom equal header manifold.

    Does anyone know the gearbox, rear diff and other drivetrain component limits? These don't seem to be discussed much at all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  39. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Gearbox is rated to 270ftlb...

    <tuffty/>
     
  40. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    And how is it handling the power in real life?

    You guys seem to be giving me very short snob-ish answers, sorry I don't know everything...
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  41. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    short yeah, snob-ish, not so much... succinct and to the point :)

    Well... the 02M handles stuff fairly well considering its factory rating... I am pushing 440ftlbs through mine and it deals with it but be under no illusion that longevity is diminished...

    I found this out a few times when the transfer box exploded and the props centre CV disintegrated...

    Key thing to damage limitation is not to launch the car... power/torque and grippy AWD will just kill off the drive train...

    Not a bad idea to invest in spares :)

    <tuffty/>
     
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  42. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    Thanks Tuffty, so as long as I don't launch my car too often, it can hold big power. Longevity is obviously drastically reduced.

    Mechanics will begin putting everything together next week, so fingers crossed all works out :salute:
     
  43. tomsko

    tomsko Member

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    So I went ahead and ordered STD stroke 82mm Wiseco pistons. I wanted 82.5mm but as it turns out my head gasket is not 82.5mm.

    I’ve been thinking a lot about the next stage of my project, when this is all put together. I think I have landed on going with Badgers K04-380 hybrid with the Chinafold instead of big turbo. I will keep the smaller size silicone TIP (although I already have the Badger v3 TIP) just becase it doens’t fit my LHD car too well. I have 3” downpipe not the best 3.5” option but that’s fine.

    To maximise the hybrid I might go E85 or Water/Meth. I would prefer the injection as the only E85 gass station is 1 hour away from me. But the question I have is - can Meth injection be tuned with the original ME7 ECU or I have to go aftermarket? Since now would be the time to wire in the VEMS ECU - all nearby tuners are best with VEMS from where Im from.

    Also adding NOS keeps bugging me. I think it would be cool to achieve 450-500hp on the K04. Although with “cheating”, but still.
     

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