Bobby Singh A4 3.0 TDI build thread

[jamesbops6]

Hi.
Bobby just pointed me to this thread from vwaf and i'm loving it.
I've been running my c6 3.0tdi asb for couple years now with hybrid bv50 with 2283 wheel/ett and machined housing inlet. Decat and miltek cat back. Fog lights removed for more afoot flow
Still got standard smic and fuel pump.
Did try sourcing injectors upgrade but had no joy.
Never got it to a dyno so got no figures or even logs
Would love a better map on mine and maybe more depending on opinions?

 

[bobby singh]

Hi James - I would upgrade the intercooler first - go for a decent fmic (will involve some custom pipe work), its the only way forward.
Then gets some logs followed by a power run.

The stock pump and injectors are fine for a hybrid you should not be getting any pressure drop.

 

[bobby singh]

10/10/15 - Inline coolant regulator

So since removing the EGR cooler the coolant temp has been dropping to low as 50deg when on the motorway.

This regulator use to be mounted on the EGR cooler:

So from the egr cooler I cut out the mounting and also cut the 16mm pipe coupler to weld together.

But the internal bore size is alot bigger on the regulator mounting:

Ended up using a reducing 90 and it worked a treat

 

[bobby singh]

17/11/15

Updated the lighting on the car from Aurora Bulbs (great service). Fog light, interior bulbs, boot, and reverse.

63mm intercooler pipe (turbo to intercooler)

First getting the stock (50mm pipe) out is a pain - I ended up cutting it at muffler:

I wanted to see what was inside any how

After some cutting I had a rough design:

However, the 63mm pipe was too big for the Wagner silicone hose. There was a section in the hose that accepted 57mm, so ended up with this:

Tapped some threads and fitted a NPT nipple to measure pressure drop rather than using a hose with a hole.

The silicone hose which i used is very close to the exhaust manifold so have ordered some heat wrap and will need to fit a support bracket to hold the pipe up.

In other news my exhaust is ready
Great quality item - custom made 3" with V band connections and ear friendly big mufflers.

]

 

[Gazwould]

Quality .

 

[bonifacy87]

Looking great. You have post some videos how it sounds once on.
BTW everything went back to normal in my one.

 

[bobby singh]

Looking great. You have post some videos how it sounds once on.
BTW everything went back to normal in my one.

Hi - yes I'll make a video hopefully I can find this stationary limit of 2.5k
Glad your car sorted itself out must have been some trapped air.

Cheers

 

[adamss24]

Hi Bobby, that's a nicely built exhaust system ! Keep us updated, i love this stuff !

 

[desertstorm]

Exhaust looks like a quality piece of kit.I was looking to change that pipe from the Turbo to the intercooler but I was going to use 57mm as it is a bit tight across the top of the exhaust. I have already wrapped the pipe in heat insulation.
Does your engine not rev more than 2.5K when stationary then ?. I suppose it's related to the fact it's an auto. Not an issue with the manual box.

 

[bonifacy87]

Exhaust looks like a quality piece of kit.I was looking to change that pipe from the Turbo to the intercooler but I was going to use 57mm as it is a bit tight across the top of the exhaust. I have already wrapped the pipe in heat insulation.
Does your engine not rev more than 2.5K when stationary then ?. I suppose it's related to the fact it's an auto. Not an issue with the manual box.

My manual doesn't rev higher than 2.5 when in neutral either.

 

[bobby singh]

Hi Bobby, that's a nicely built exhaust system ! Keep us updated, i love this stuff !

Hi Chris - Yes its taken a few weeks to make but looks like the wait was worth it - Should have it in my hands this week (hopefully).
Won't get a chance to fit it until next week though (you know what it's like - just no time).

Exhaust looks like a quality piece of kit.I was looking to change that pipe from the Turbo to the intercooler but I was going to use 57mm as it is a bit tight across the top of the exhaust. I have already wrapped the pipe in heat insulation.
Does your engine not rev more than 2.5K when stationary then ?. I suppose it's related to the fact it's an auto. Not an issue with the manual box.

Hi Karl - I wanted to future proof the intercooler pipework and previous tests have shown I have 200mbar pressure drop some where. This doesn't sound like much but I could make use of that boost in the engine which would allow more fuel (and keep a clean lambda)
As mentioned previously the turbo can not be pushed while remaining within some safety so improving efficiency is the way forward for now.

As soon as the heat wrap comes through I'll get some results from the 63mm pipe. If nothing has improved then maybe the up stream pipe needs upgrading to a bigger size, I already have a MAP flange so shouldn't be too difficult.

Yes my car doesn't like to rev above 2.5k while stationary - should be able to find the limiter.

Cheers

 

[desertstorm]

Hello Bobby I entirely agree with you about the pressure loss, It all adds up and anything that makes the life easier for the turbo to make boost is good, And 200 mBar is a significant drop.Strange thing with the car revving in neutral being limited to 2500 RPM. My car has never done that before or after the map.
Had a quick search on Google and found this, http://www.a5oc.com/forums/a5-general-q/6427-a5-wont-rev-over.html .
I've solved this problem

,First of all please note: (I didn't know this till now!!) , If you press the ESP button quickly...it turns off ASR
If you press and hold ESP button...it turns off ASR & ESP So........................
Press and hold ESP to turn both ASR & ESP off
Depress clutch (if you don't it won't rev over 2500rpm)
& your5 will rev all the way (wether 1st gear is engaged or not and wehther handbrake is on or not)
As yours is an auto hopefully this should work as you have no clutch, you may need to press the brake or something.

 

[bonifacy87]

Hello Bobby I entirely agree with you about the pressure loss, It all adds up and anything that makes the life easier for the turbo to make boost is good, And 200 mBar is a significant drop.Strange thing with the car revving in neutral being limited to 2500 RPM. My car has never done that before or after the map.
Had a quick search on Google and found this, http://www.a5oc.com/forums/a5-general-q/6427-a5-wont-rev-over.html .
I've solved this problem

,First of all please note: (I didn't know this till now!!) , If you press the ESP button quickly...it turns off ASR
If you press and hold ESP button...it turns off ASR & ESP So........................
Press and hold ESP to turn both ASR & ESP off
Depress clutch (if you don't it won't rev over 2500rpm)
& your5 will rev all the way (wether 1st gear is engaged or not and wehther handbrake is on or not)
As yours is an auto hopefully this should work as you have no clutch, you may need to press the brake or something.

Hi Karl. I knew about this procedure before. Not too sure how long clutch can survive reving with a pedal depressed.
Altough I don't think it will work in Bobby's car as it's auto.

 

[desertstorm]

Having the clutch pressed and revving the engine will make not damage the clutch at all. There has to be some way of getting the engine to rev above 2500 rpm as otherwise I wouldn't have thought the car would pass the smoke test in an MOT.

 

[youngy93]

[QUOTE="desertstorm, I've solved this problem

,First of all please note: (I didn't know this till now!!) , If you press the ESP button quickly...it turns off ASR
If you press and hold ESP button...it turns off ASR & ESP So........................
Press and hold ESP to turn both ASR & ESP off
Depress clutch (if you don't it won't rev over 2500rpm)
& your5 will rev all the way (wether 1st gear is engaged or not and wehther handbrake is on or not)
As yours is an auto hopefully this should work as you have no clutch, you may need to press the brake or something.[/QUOTE]

Thats pretty much how you set up the sort of launch control for the automatic, hold the button till esp is completly off, put the car into sport mode, foot hard on the brake, press throttle, i hold it around 2500 while the boost builds then let go of brake and launch away

 

[bobby singh]

Thanks for the suggestion Karl but on mine it made no difference.

I done some logging today and discovered the 63mm pipe has made zero difference to pressure drop, so I suspect its the intercooler core.
The MAP sensor pipe is a straight with no bends etc so I do not think any gains are to be had from that side.

200mbar drop is at the very top end 4600rpm.

Air density has increased in the winter month together with a good intercooler.
The lambda reading suggested 15 to 20% more fuel could be added in the midrange which have a big impact on torque.
The V6 engine seems to consume fuel really well - for a test I ran lambda 1 in the top end and there was zero smoke.

Cheers
Bobby

 

[bobby singh]

2/12/15 - 3" Exhaust fitted

Well I fitted the 3" exhaust during the weekend and to be honest it looks great and sounds great. But I'm not sure I can live with it.
I'm basically doing a lot of miles and I always wanted a stealth but fast car.

It does look good:

As for performance well its the best I've seen with zero back pressure at 4.6k rpm and only 45mbar in the midrange.
Im sure its old age but I want my car to be silent. So I'll be fitting the standard system back which was giving me 130mbar still not so bad as the 2260 has to deal with at least 500 to 600mbar with the dpf.

In the future if I find the back pressure is too high then maybe I'll fit a active exhaust valve.

I've also now found the limit of the CP4.2 pump - I can get 97mg in the mid range with 81mg @ 4k before rail pressure becomes a issue.
Still smoke free which is great - time for another dyno i think.

 

[Gazwould]

That sounds great you old ******* , lol .

Sometimes they quieten when sooted up a bit .

 

[bobby singh]

That sounds great you old ******* , lol .

Sometimes they quieten when sooted up a bit .

Haha
Im sure if i was 20 years younger I wouldn't mind it

 

[desertstorm]

Glad to see the pump seems to be giving the flow that you need. Hopefully mine will manage somewhere around 98mg as that's what it will need to get the best out of the hybrid. But you need something like 97mg to make 370 bhp at 4000 RPM.
I am not to fussed about putting a bigger exhaust on my car, there is so much back pressure created by the turbo the back pressure from the exhaust doesn't really come into it.The active valve gives me the option of slightly louder than normal with a bit more growl.
Or hooligan mode as I call it . I think it's the way too go.
Hopefully getting mine remapped again soon with the hybrid.

 

[adamss24]

2/12/15 - 3" Exhaust fitted

Well I fitted the 3" exhaust during the weekend and to be honest it looks great and sounds great. But I'm not sure I can live with it. I'm basically doing a lot of miles and I always wanted a stealth but fast car.

Here is a audio (need headphones really)

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/0903/cossie_power/Audi A4/Exhaust- driveby_zpsm4boyvpj.mp4

It does look good:



As for performance well its the best I've seen with zero back pressure at 4.6k rpm and only 45mbar in the midrange.
Im sure its old age but I want my car to be silent. So I'll be fitting the standard system back which was giving me 130mbar still not so bad as the 2260 has to deal with at least 500 to 600mbar with the dpf.

In the future if I find the back pressure is too high then maybe I'll fit a active exhaust valve.

I've also now found the limit of the CP4.2 pump - I can get 97mg in the mid range with 81mg @ 4k before rail pressure becomes a issue.
Still smoke free which is great - time for another dyno i think.

Cheers
Bobby

It does not seem too bad Bobby, i have built a few exhausts which were much, much louder than that - it was on request ! On my s4 i did keep the old backboxes which are valved and make the car supportable on long runs, maybe that's what you need...

 

[Matt Benns]

Glad to see the pump seems to be giving the flow that you need. Hopefully mine will manage somewhere around 98mg as that's what it will need to get the best out of the hybrid. But you need something like 97mg to make 370 bhp at 4000 RPM.
I am not to fussed about putting a bigger exhaust on my car, there is so much back pressure created by the turbo the back pressure from the exhaust doesn't really come into it.The active valve gives me the option of slightly louder than normal with a bit more growl.
Or hooligan mode as I call it . I think it's the way too go.
Hopefully getting mine remapped again soon with the hybrid.

Does your active exhaust run down a separate pipe or do you just have it so it's open to the world as soon as you switch on "hooligan mode"?

 

[bobby singh]

Glad to see the pump seems to be giving the flow that you need. Hopefully mine will manage somewhere around 98mg as that's what it will need to get the best out of the hybrid. But you need something like 97mg to make 370 bhp at 4000 RPM.
I am not to fussed about putting a bigger exhaust on my car, there is so much back pressure created by the turbo the back pressure from the exhaust doesn't really come into it.The active valve gives me the option of slightly louder than normal with a bit more growl.
Or hooligan mode as I call it . I think it's the way too go.
Hopefully getting mine remapped again soon with the hybrid.

Karl the CP4.2 is now out of fuel in the midrange - I could inject more @ 4k but lambda is perfect for smokefree power and without boost there is no point. With your stock exhaust modified with a straight pipe in the back boxes do you get excessive noise during cruise? or is it pretty much like stock?

It does not seem too bad Bobby, i have built a few exhausts which were much, much louder than that - it was on request ! On my s4 i did keep the old backboxes which are valved and make the car supportable on long runs, maybe that's what you need...

Chris outside it sounds like an animal and maybe if it was a weekend car I could live with it.
I could try to add another box, but why bother when I have a stock exhaust that will work fine.
I'll just put this up for sale and put the money towards more ponies

 

[desertstorm]

Hi Bobby, as I have the exhaust with straight pipes in the box and full of loft insulation it's a little louder than normal, you get just a little of that V6 growl when you accelerate, but the rest of the time it's quiet, no drone, resonance or anything. Completely different with the valve open and probably similar to what you have with the 3 inch system. There is a noticeable drone/resonance at around 1800-2100 rpm, probably more so on my car as it exits under the car. it would drive me mad if it was like that permanently.
I had similar issues with my Passat when I put a straight through exhaust on it with no resonator, I fixed that but using a side branch resonator or helmholtz resonator. Doesn't affect the free flowing nature of the exhaust but it does get rid of the drone.

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/stainless-exhaust-without-drone.869838/
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/457515-Car-at-shop-helmholtz-resonators-being-installed


There is a seller that makes exhausts for the 3.0 TDI with these installed. I was surfing the other day and saw some pictures,I have been trying to find them again but can't.

 

[desertstorm]

Does your active exhaust run down a separate pipe or do you just have it so it's open to the world as soon as you switch on "hooligan mode"?

open to the world , have a look at the build thread linked from my signature.

 

[adamss24]

Bobby, i have gutted the internals of a mates a5 exhaust backboxes, we cut it along half way round and welded a straight piece of pipe after we removed the bafles. He was a bit dissapointed as it did not sound as loud as he wanted but on the outside-on full throttle- it was sounding wicked. No drone whatsoever and quiet as well on cruise speeds. The metal was tricky to weld, audi uses aluminised steel now and because it's thin it would blow holes even on low amps. I got it welded nicely in the end, i will ask vlad for a few pictures as i did not bother taking any !?! I got it welded in the end and looking from underneath you could not tell it' s been fetled with !

 

[bobby singh]

Karl - thanks for the information - I missed your comment previously about EMP and exhaust back pressure. Back pressure has a direct influence over EMP.

Chris - Thanks for confirming

A user from another forum has expressed interest in the 3" exhaust so it could be gone very quickly.
Time to look for a better hpfp.

 

[desertstorm]

As Chris says although my exhaust without the valve open doesn't really sound much louder in the car several people have said to me how nice it sounds. The problem is the sound insulation is so good it has too be really loud to hear it at a good level in the car.
I realise that the exhaust back pressure has a direct effect on the EMP as it adds to whatever back pressure is created in the turbo, this is where the real squeeze is though in the turbo. At 4200 RPM there is around 35 lbs of back pressue in the manifold and only 1.5-2 psi of that is probably from the exhaust, the rest is from the restriction in the turbo.
I will do some logs on mine and see what it's showing.
This video is with the hybrid on running the standard turbo remap. Hopefully the remap for the hybrid will improve the bottom end response a bit. At the moment the VNT is fully open above 4400 rpm and the turbo is making a lot more boost than the specified from around 4000 RPM.

 

[bobby singh]

Karl pressure ratio is the ratio of emp / pressure after turbine

For example:
Say turbine has pressure ratio of 4bar to maintain boost with 0 mbar exhaust back pressure then we have 4000mbar / 1000 mbar (absolute)

Now if we add say 200mbar exhaust back pressure we'll have 1200 (inc absolute)

1200 x 4 = 4800mbar

As you can see back pressure has huge impact on emp.

In other news I measured the upstream pressure from the feed pump (just before the hpfp)

I got a measurement of 4.5bar on idle and 4bar during wide open throttle so now we know the upstream pressure is good.
I guess a second upstream pump may allow few more mg of fuel but the real bottle neck is the hpfp now.

Cheers
Bobby

 

[t8ups]

How have I missed this, always great to read your In depths threads Bobby, I used to be on the uk mkivs forum but since not having a golf don't go on there.

 

[Stu2w]

I miss all this. Before the S4 I owned an E60 535d.
Swirl flaps blanked, egr off DPF and cat deleted with new Ecotune system fitted.
Wagner cooler
Stage 2 (Ecotune Scotland)
398 bhp
796 nm
155 mph delimited
Was a naughty wolf in Sheep's clothing.

 

[Gazwould]

How did it fair for traction over an Audi's quattro ?

 

[Stu2w]

I had 295/30/19 on the rear and it still went sidewards! ) I can get the back out on the s4 if I provoke it.I loved it my wife on the hand didn't. Tbh she picked the S4 as a family car.

 

[GjrBartlett]

16/9/15 Wagner intercooler (competition)

Excellent quality item - Mark @ Wagner has opened me an account so can get these at discounted price if required.



Cheers
Bobby

Afternoon Bobby,

Cracking build thread, what level of discount is he offering.

Always wondered if it was worth upgrading the FMIC on my A4 2.0Tdi (Revo map)?

Cheers.

 

[desertstorm]

Hello Bobby I was aware of the pressure multiplication factor that applies on the exhaust, it's the same on the intake with losses incurred in the intact tract and air filter causing a negative pressure. My point was that the difference between what I have ATM and a full 3 inch exhaust isn't that much. Did some logging today and the maximum pressure I saw was around 100m Bar from when the turbo spooled to the red line.
I am confused how your exhaust can have zero back pressure at 4600 RPM? . There must be some back pressure .
I suspect the best I could hope for would be something like a 40% reduction in pressure loss by going to a full 3 inch system. That would reduce back pressure by around 40m Bar, lets say 50m Bar.
Going on a pressure ratio of 4, I actually think my car is more like 3.5 that would be 200m Bar difference which is about 3 PSI .
I know going forward when the car is remapped these values are liable to increase but I will revisit this and see what the values are looking like.

As for your pump I believe there are bigger pumps available. I think yours is a
CR/CP4S2/R65/40S with the 65 being related to the flow capacity of the pump.
The pump on the CCLA engine is a CR/CP4S2/R75/40S
059130755AL or
059130755BL

http://www.partsbase.org/audi/audi-a4-avant-a4-eu-2009-13035-high-pressure-pump/

Seems to be used in the A4 , Q7 and the Touareg . I presume this would be a fairly easy swap.
The BI Turbo pump is a CR/CP4HS2/R80/40 that looks to be different in the body though.

 

[bobby singh]

How have I missed this, always great to read your In depths threads Bobby, I used to be on the uk mkivs forum but since not having a golf don't go on there.

Hello mate nice to hear from you - the trusted mk4's are getting on a bit now. I do miss mine but the 3.0tdi engine is a different league.

I miss all this. Before the S4 I owned an E60 535d.
Swirl flaps blanked, egr off DPF and cat deleted with new Ecotune system fitted.
Wagner cooler
Stage 2 (Ecotune Scotland)
398 bhp
796 nm
155 mph delimited
Was a naughty wolf in Sheep's clothing.

Must admit the BMW 3.0 engine is very good. 35d seem to handle 2.3 bar boost without any issue meaning you can inject enough fuel for 370hp plus on stock hardware.

Afternoon Bobby,

Cracking build thread, what level of discount is he offering.

Always wondered if it was worth upgrading the FMIC on my A4 2.0Tdi (Revo map)?

Cheers.

Thanks - Drop me a PM with full car details and I'll ask.

Hello Bobby I was aware of the pressure multiplication factor that applies on the exhaust, it's the same on the intake with losses incurred in the intact tract and air filter causing a negative pressure. My point was that the difference between what I have ATM and a full 3 inch exhaust isn't that much. Did some logging today and the maximum pressure I saw was around 100m Bar from when the turbo spooled to the red line.
I am confused how your exhaust can have zero back pressure at 4600 RPM? . There must be some back pressure .
I suspect the best I could hope for would be something like a 40% reduction in pressure loss by going to a full 3 inch system. That would reduce back pressure by around 40m Bar, lets say 50m Bar.
Going on a pressure ratio of 4, I actually think my car is more like 3.5 that would be 200m Bar difference which is about 3 PSI .
I know going forward when the car is remapped these values are liable to increase but I will revisit this and see what the values are looking like.

As for your pump I believe there are bigger pumps available. I think yours is a
CR/CP4S2/R65/40S with the 65 being related to the flow capacity of the pump.
The pump on the CCLA engine is a CR/CP4S2/R75/40S
059130755AL or
059130755BL

http://www.partsbase.org/audi/audi-a4-avant-a4-eu-2009-13035-high-pressure-pump/

Seems to be used in the A4 , Q7 and the Touareg . I presume this would be a fairly easy swap.
The BI Turbo pump is a CR/CP4HS2/R80/40 that looks to be different in the body though.

Hi Karl with the 3" i had zero back pressure @ 4.6k and under 50mbar in the midrange (2.1bar boost). I put the stock exhaust back now and measured 150mbar @ 4.6k with the current tune (80mg @ 4k and 1.7bar boost)

That pump does look like a nice pnp solution for the stock 2260 or even a hybrid.
I'll hunt for higher output pump for futureproof.

Cheers
Bobby

 

[desertstorm]

I am surprised that you have no pressure drop at all, there must be something wrong with the reading, It doesn't make sense there is no pressure drop as you still have a good amount of flow.

There seem to be similar pumps rated higher at 90 but not sure about the pump drive shaft, they seem to have a different arrangement also there are a few other physical differences. Volvo and Honda seem to use them.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2012-VOLV...700911?hash=item51d9291baf:g:Az4AAOSw9r1WDWZG

The newer 3.0 TDI seem to have a 75 rated pump
059130755CA

http://olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodam-tnvd-059130755ca-IDfAY8C.html

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pompa-alt...290582?hash=item2a5ce753d6:g:Ca0AAOSwfcVUGFVn

 

[bobby singh]

4000 - 17mabr
4300 - 4mbar
4500 - -3 (minus)
4600 - -2 (minus)

As for why the figures are negative - I'm confused.
Only thing I can think of is that because there is so little backpressure the absolute pressure becomes less due to the velocity of the air.

Like I mentioned the 3" exhaust is great on the logs but ears are more important haha

The R90 output is where i want to be with the option to further increase the output if required.

There are some interesting pumps available but half of them spin in the wrong direction for us.

I'll post a update when the parts come through.

Bobby

 

[desertstorm]

There is something not right there Bobby how could you get a vacuum in a pipe with that much gas flowing through it ? There must be a positive pressure differential. On my car there is , as I suppose in yours, a measuring block 140 for the Lambda probe pressure . I am not entirely sure how it works but I think the pressure for the Lambda sensor is measured as this is used as a correction factor to get accurate Lambda readings.
http://www.etas.com/data/RealTimes_2010/rt_2010_2_29_en.pdf
This seems to make more sense for the readings as I get some funny readings from the DPF pressure sensor, dipping quite negative sometimes.
The Bi-turbo pump is only an R80 and these run to over 400bhp if the DPF's are removed but an R90 will as you say would provide more than enough fuel.
What kind of rail pressure are you running? .
Karl.

 

[bobby singh]

Rail pressure with 97mg in the midrange has a 300bar drop from requested
in the top end with 81mg the requested and actual rail pressure are fine @ approx 1900bar pressure
So sure I could inject more in the top end but again comes back to the turbo is too small therefore no point.
I could produce more torq in the mid range but the hpfp is out of puff so again no point
We have reached the limits of the stock hardware basically