1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Dismiss Notice

Bobby Singh A4 3.0 TDI build thread

bobby singh Jul 14, 2015

  1. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,494
    3,764
    113
    I know what you mean that's why I have switched to a hybrid, quite a good improvement from standard with the stock hardware. I would dial back the requested a bit if it's unable to meet the specified by that much the pump must be truly maxed out.
    In my experience it seems you can usually get 30-35% gains easily with a map and a few other tweaks. 50% comes with a turbo change. After that it starts getting quite expensive and not where most people would be going.
    But you would know that anyway after your Golf Build. Looks like a hybrid and a HPFP on the list if you want any further improvements.
     
  2. Avatar

    snack-media
    Advertisement


  3. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    December 2015 - Bosch CP3

    Christmas break fun..

    Next task was to source a fuel pump that would be able to supply enough fuel without causing rail pressure drop.
    After considering different Bosch pumps - I went with Bosch CP3. The pump is fitted to some early V6 models.
    I managed to get all the required parts from a car that was being broken. Pump, gear, bracket, belt etc

    [​IMG]

    Got M12 adapters for the fuel lines:

    [​IMG]


    With some luck the bracket mounted nicely, but I had a issue with finding a gear that would keep the belt tight

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    All mounted up but the M12 90deg was a little tall

    [​IMG]

    Ended up purchasing OEM feed and return

    [​IMG]

    Finally got the CP3 working after some more tweaking in the tune.
    Now I can inject close to 100mg in the mid range without rail pressure drop :)
    The first generation of V6 that used the CP3 pump only had 0.5 bar feed pressure so with 4bar feed pressure we have a excellent start.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  4. adamss24

    adamss24 Registered User

    4,547
    420
    83
    Nice ! 100mg in the midrange should make 350 Bhp easily ! It seems to me there's a rule there: 1st run of models have the most power output potential, less stringent emissions and better build quality. On Later ones they somewhat dilute the essence and use electronic trickery to please the punters... Well done Bobby !
     
  5. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    Hi Chris - 350hp with stock 2260 is out of limits.
    I have more torq with 100mg in the midrange for sure.

    Yep the early pumps were better made for performance etc but later things like cost, noise and more important having such a over specc'ed pump for say 225hp means its wasted money for Audi.

    I'll have more interesting stuff to post soon ;)

    Cheers
     
  6. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,494
    3,764
    113
    Looking Good Bobby, Later pumps more aimed at emissions and fuel economy than out and out performance I think. Higher pressure but lower volume and a modified way of operating to reduce the amount of energy required to run the pump.
    What kind of pressure will the CP3 deliver ?. I know the CP1H on mine is 1600 bar and it seems to run fine at 1800 bar.
    I thought the CP3 ran around 1600 bar so should also be good for probably 1800 bar.
    Just need a bigger turbo and and maybe some water /meth or nitrous and you will be around the 400 bhp mark.
     
  7. jamesbops6

    jamesbops6 Registered User

    14
    5
    3
    I'm lovin reading this, i just need to get a few things sorted with work and I'll be able to get mine properly sorted.
     
  8. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    Currently running over 2000bar pressure with no issues - this pump is really impressive. If i try any higher i get errors - the rail pressure sensor is M12 and finding a 2400bar sensor is abit tricky. In M18 there are many options like a BMW item for example.
     
  9. youngy93

    youngy93 Registered User

    136
    24
    18
    are you running the standard airfilter?
     
  10. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    Yes stock filter - no need for after market.

    Stock is good for MAF and turbo compressor wheel.
     
    martinivw likes this.
  11. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,494
    3,764
    113
    Well thats the fuelling sorted then. I personally wouldn't push past 2000 bar unless you really have too, as that pump was originally designed for 1600 bar operation I believe. Asking for lots of flow at high pressures puts a big demand on the pump and takes a lot of power to run the pump.
    They are cheap enough to buy but if they fail they fill the rails with debris that will possibly result in you replacing injectors as well.
    Turbo next, Hybrid 2260 or something bigger ? . There is a good amount of room at the back of the engine for a sizeable turbo.
     
  12. Avatar

    snack-media
    Advertisement


  13. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    Big Turbo

    Well I knew it would be only a matter of time before I fitted a bigger turbo.
    So it all came together in the Christmas / new year break.
    To be honest I had the turbo before I had even purchased the car. It was a nice unit and when it came up for sale I just had to have it.

    The turbo itself started is a borg warner John Deere s200v. As stock the turbine is really healthy as 56mm ex but only 44.5mm ind compressor wheel. Lucky for me the unit came modified with a 70/51mm CW. The compressor housing also came with anti surge modification already done.

    Turbo pictures

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Parts collection - Oil return, feed, compressor housing outlet, flange, V bands etc

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The green cable is the turbo speed sensor

    S200 Vs 2260 compressor housing

    [​IMG]

    Fitting

    Turbo unit removed

    [​IMG]

    Custom oil return

    [​IMG]

    Custom oil feed

    [​IMG]

    Modified 3" downpipe

    [​IMG]

    Modified the Y collector and welded the S200 flange directly to it.
    Y collector also housed the EGT probe (cut the boss from a broken 2260) and emp adaptor.

    The actuator set up was a very fiddle job - getting the angle and throw correct in relation to the turbo lever took a lot of hours.

    But finally a VCDS output test could be done with no errors

    Ignore the TIP it was something just to get the car running.

    [​IMG]

    After deleting the EGR cooler water pump, temp sensor and rad outlet sensor I noticed the lambda sensor wasn't behaving itself.
    Turns out the rad outlet sensor is used some how to make the lambda sensor to function.

    That meant I had to plumb the sensor back in.

    [​IMG]

    Heat protection

    [​IMG]

    Bi Turbo MAF

    As the stock MAF sensor was maxed out at 900kg/h the options were map based smoke limiter (time consuming to get right) or bigger MAF.
    For a cleaner tune decided to go with the A6 Bi turbo MAF rated upto 1400kg/h so nice improvement over stock.

    The housing is bigger over stock so custom 90mm TIP was needed, but on a plus note the MAF fitted the stock air filter perfectly.

    [​IMG]

    Looks pretty good

    [​IMG]

    Dyno result

    [​IMG]

    420hp / 830nm
    As you can see the power is still going up at 4k but egt was already 900deg so kept it safe.
    Maybe more rail pressure next.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
    martinivw, Misikee, V6 Quatt and 4 others like this.
  14. Gazwould

    Gazwould Registered User

    7,809
    3,160
    113
    Holy **** the bed , it's a desertstorm basher .
     
    bobby singh likes this.
  15. jamesbops6

    jamesbops6 Registered User

    14
    5
    3
    xxxx me.
    Wish I Could find an option of bigger blower for mine like that
     
  16. kanecullen89

    kanecullen89 Registered User

    589
    170
    43
    600ft lb's!!!! That thing must rip up Tarmac!!
     
  17. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,494
    3,764
    113
    Wow you don't hang around do you Bobby. Congratulations.
    Hatemi did something similar with a 3.0 Audi but I am sure you have already read that .
    http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=429110
    Very nice figures and certainly only doable with an auto, A manual would freak with that sudden torque increase the clutch wouldn't know what to do.
    Bet that is very interesting when the turbo spools, thats got to pin you back in your seat :) .
    Don't know if earlier injectors might help a little they may flow more allowing you to reduce the injection duration which might help EGT's .
    Also some tweaking the boost to find the sweet spot between back pressure and boost.
    But you know all that anyway.Will keep a look out for further updates.

    Karl.
     
    martinivw likes this.
  18. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    Yes Hannu done the same - its returned to stock now though.
    S200 frame is really nice next size up like a S300 is just too big - there are better wheels that might fit so could be further options if required.
    I wouldn't want to use early injectors as they had issue with failing and causing bad engine damage.
    If i really want more I'd go for higher rail pressure or wait until bigger injectors come available.
    For a dyno queen i could get 440 to 450 i guess, but i've kept it safe with 900deg before correction factor
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
    martinivw likes this.
  19. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    Yes Karl it does pin you back - being able to break traction is a nice statement.
    Might be making a trip to santa pod soon i think - terminal speed should be interesting.
     
    martinivw likes this.
  20. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,494
    3,764
    113
    Hardly know that was a diesel plenty of air there so room for more fuel, but I would play safe with EGT's and try and keep it reliable.
    I should imagine you would be looking at high 12's and around 110mph with that kind of power.
    How is the gearbox coping ? .
     
  21. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    Gearbox seems fine at least for now.
    I will change the gearbox oil and filter - its due a change anyway. ZF filter isn't exactly cheap though but cheaper than a gearbox :)

    Turbo speed is still under what BW consider safe so there is plenty of scope but just need more fuel.
    CP3 Pump is really great does exactly what you ask it.

    Cheers
     
    martinivw and xpoweruk like this.
  22. NotNormal

    NotNormal Active Member VCDS Map User

    380
    81
    28
  23. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    6HP28 - ZF says 700NM but i heard another report to say 750nm but it seems to work at 800plus ok as well
     
    martinivw likes this.
  24. NotNormal

    NotNormal Active Member VCDS Map User

    380
    81
    28
    @bobby singh I had the 6HP26 in my 335d E92, I spoke with a ZF engineer that was looking at a gearbox at a main dealer I contract too. He looked on his work laptop for me, the 6HP26 was officially rated to 750nm, but he did say they're conservative.
    As your gearbox is designed for the 4wd drive drain, I'd imagine the torque load capacity of your unit to be slightly higher or at very least the same.

    I would love your auto box, mine in my A6 is rubbish, can't take any serious torque.

    At the moment, I have a reflash on mine, made it better, but still has a torque limiter in 5th, that's too low, as it pulls strong in 1/2/3/4 and 6, just goes flat in 5th !! Only 5th gear ..... Do you feel anything like this on your gearbox ??
     
  25. Dieselburner

    Dieselburner Registered User

    12
    0
    1
    Nice project. Please upload video how it drives. :)
     
  26. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    -26 box is 600nm according to ZF doc I have but I know it can take a lot more. I tuned a 335d with dpf off made 370hp and 720hpnm and gearbox is still ok.

    I have no issues with my box in any gear.

    I'll make some video when on track etc.
     
  27. NotNormal

    NotNormal Active Member VCDS Map User

    380
    81
    28
    Do you know anyone that can map gearboxes or do you have access to the software ?
     
  28. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    I know CMD and magpro2 couldn't do my transmission so I haven't bothered to be honest.
    Send me a PM about the full spec it could be something else.

    Cheers
     
  29. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,494
    3,764
    113
    You should come to GTI International at the Shakespeare raceway, great weekend and a good place to meet other ASN members.
    http://www.gtiinternational.co.uk/
     
    xpoweruk likes this.
  30. chrisw880

    chrisw880 Registered User

    100
    24
    18
    Me and xpower are heading to Santa Pod this Sunday, if the weather holds out
     
  31. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
  32. youngy93

    youngy93 Registered User

    136
    24
    18
    Hello, does your box have alot of rev movement when the torque converter is unlocked, like 1st 2nd and 3rd when its unlocked its shocking especially if slowly accelerating?

    Im looking to have my trans fluid changed but dont know whether to do it myself or have a specialist do it, had quotes of around £300
     
  33. Avatar

    snack-media
    Advertisement


  34. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    Hi - it depend how you catch the transmission. For example when i log i put it into manual mode select 3 or 4 gear then WOT sometimes i have release and go again to prevent a upshift.

    I'm going to change the filter and oil on mine soon. The 6hp 28 takes lifeguard 8 oil (green) and the filter is part of the pan.
    Its over £200 for just the parts so £300 is not so bad.
     
  35. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    February 2016 - Turbo Speed sensor

    As the s200 has a default speed sensor it would be crazy not to make use of it.
    According to BW they say no more than 152k rpm.
    Looking on the turbo shaft there is a flat area which would mean 1 pulse per turn - confirmed by using a scope.

    I decided to use the EGR input as in VCDS there is a raw voltage display. After some testing on the egr i found the ground, 12v and the input.
    Using a input signal from my phone @ 2.5khz i calibrated the voltage shown in vcds to 4.5v which is approx 150k rpm.

    Here are some pictures of the home made pulse to voltage convertor

    Melted the OEM EGR plug to expose the pins:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    End result shows the turbo has rpm of approx 145k so still some more scope left :)

    I've also calibrated the voltage so the coil light flashes when we get overspin - I've been trying to get the car to limp with a certain voltage/shaft speed is seen, but this is more difficult that expected.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
    desertstorm likes this.
  36. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,494
    3,764
    113
  37. VTEChnician

    VTEChnician Registered User

    7
    3
    3
    I found that this little unit can torque itself open cct. I found one of the contacts to the motor had pulled out. A careful prise open and a rebuild with a little araldite or epoxy putty in the right place stops this happening again. I also refitted the liner and resealed the slits with a carefully worked blob of polyurethane sealer (tigerseal). Cant tell its been out!
     
  38. VTEChnician

    VTEChnician Registered User

    7
    3
    3
    May I ask..At max Hp and just prior to spool-up are you getting much smoke?
    I ask because my tuner (Corten Miller) did 40miles of dyno running on my stock CAPA motor (with exception of DPF gutted) to give me 274 from stock 236 bhp with just the slightest haze at max Hp. He said that if he took it further there would be visible smoke at high speeds (I had asked him to ensure no smoke). Seems a lttle meager in comparison to your Stg1 with DPF fitted I must say, and I had fully de-coked the inlet just prior at 75,000mi when I slipped some titatnium blanks either end of the EGR tract.
     
  39. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,494
    3,764
    113
    I get very little if any smoke from mine, there are plenty of photo's on my build thread of the car on the 1/4 mile. Very occasionaly I get a haze when using the water methanol, Normal running it's smoke free at around 315 bhp.
     
    martinivw likes this.
  40. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    I've had zero smoke throughout the development. If you maintain good lambda there is no reason for smoke.
    Most of the tunes out there are just duration mapping, so they will increase duration by say 20% rather than correct calibration.
    Also, that dyno run you refer to is with a 4bar map sensor with peak boost at 2.1bar. This was used to crack 700nm.
     
    martinivw likes this.
  41. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    February 2016 - Exhaust manifold pressure sensor & Rail sensor

    Its been on the to do list to add an EMP sensor that can measure more than the stock deltap sensor, managed to source a 6 bar sensor from a Renault.
    However, they don't sell just the plug on its own so plumbed the wires directly and fitted superseal connector.

    [​IMG]

    Now tuning spool is easier with emp:boost logging

    As the injector limit has been reached causing high egt's after 4k, the workaround is increased rail pressure - currently the M12 stock sensor does not read more than 2000bar.
    It turns out the rail end has bung that can be removed for M18 rail pressure sensor and sealing surface is perfect:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Target is 2200 bar rail pressure and then back to dyno
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
    desertstorm likes this.
  42. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    7,494
    3,764
    113
    Sweet with just over 32000 PSI of pressure in the rail I hope that sensor is well fitted. An 18 mm circle has an area of 0.4 square inches so there would roughly be 12800 pounds of pressure acting on the end of that sensor. Thats 5.7 Ton or nearly 3 times the weight of the car.
    Think thats why the higher pressure sensors are a larger diameter.
     
  43. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

    1,012
    798
    113
    After 600miles no leaks I think we good :)
     

Share This Page

Do Not Sell My Personal Information