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Bobby Singh A4 3.0 TDI build thread

bobby singh Jul 14, 2015

  1. adamss24

    adamss24 Registered User

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    Looks good without dpf in there ! The welding is good however the chap is spending too much time tidying the welds which is not a bad thing... also came off very easy, last 2 a5's i have done required engine dropping or turbo + collector manifold removal in order to squeeze past...i was requested to open, gut, weld then refit original dpf housing for stock look !
     
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  3. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Welding and fitting has been spot - I'm very impressed.
    Once the fire wall is removed there is plenty of space (also gives me confidence for future plans). The worst dpf job i done was on a bmw 335d (e90) - what a pita.

    Would you have part number for the Y collector? I want to experiment with mounting.
     
  4. adamss24

    adamss24 Registered User

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    I do have a whole collector manifold and link pipes Bobby, you can borrow it if you want...pop in at my garage in Chingford one day...
     
  5. NotNormal

    NotNormal Active Member VCDS Map User

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    @bobby singh my A6 has the two corner mount intercoolers, reasonable flow too the cooler, but out the back the air has nowhere to flow too.
    The arch liner is solid, so the air passing though the heat exchangers has nowhere to vent too

    My engine code is CYDA.
    Currently running a sedox preformance map - circa 300 bhp

    I have the KWE FMIC ready to fit, just need to actually get round to fitting it.

    I'd be interested in a more bespoke remap ..... ;-)
     
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  6. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    You won't get the Y section back as I plan on cutting it etc :)
    No problem I'll source one
    Cheers

    In that case you've made the right decision with the fmic. I'll be getting a FMIC soon just need to make sure the connections are big enough etc.
    Do all the mods first and then tune :)
     
  7. TahirS

    TahirS It is all about that BEARD!

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    @bobby singh, This is really impressive. I'm not clued up on mechanics but I can compute numbers and your diesel is likely to put many petrol engines to shame. I'm thinking of doing a mechanics course at my local college to learn some basics, at the minute the stealers are robbing me and I want to learn some simple stuff. It'll be a long time before I'm confident but seeing your images is inspiring.

    THANKS FOR SHARING
     
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  8. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Hi Bobby looking good. I noticed you disconnected the heater pipes when you replaced the DPF, I don't remove those on mine as I find you can remove the aluminum shield with some persuasion with those pipes in place.
    Good result for the standard engine nearly 260 bhp.
    I did some logging on my car before and after changing the DPF to see what difference it made. Logging both intake temps and boost pressures along with the VNT position . I figured that the boost pressure would be the same regardless as the ECU would alter the vane position to produce the same boost. But with a larger intercooler you should get less pressure loss across the intercooler so turbo would actually have to produce a little less boost for the same end result.
    The logs I took seem to show this with lower temperatures and the VNT on the turbo being open more for the same boost pressure at the same RPM, So less pressure loss across the intercooler and less exhaust pressure with the vanes being open further.
    This was before the car was mapped but was running a tuning box.
    Click the link below to goto the intercooler install in my car .

    Karls 3.0 TDI build thread

    There are many larger intercoolers that people fit, the one I chose I think is a good compromise on size and cost. some are pretty large and quite expensive.

    http://www.wagner-tuning.uk/200001054.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015
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  9. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Hi Karl,

    The heater pipes were clamped so lost very little coolant and meant i could remove the section with ease.
    I've made some logs after turn the dpf off and found some slight overboost approx 80mabr.
    There is also some work required in a torq limiter (egt factor) since turning the dpf off.

    Before and after dpf I found my air charge temp to be the same at ~45deg.

    Based on the lambda readings and EGT's the limits of the stock 2260 are close now.

    As for the intercooler I've been in touch with Mark @ wagner for BMW 335d in the past and he has kindly opened me an account.

    Wagner actually offer two types of intercoolers for this car, but like I mentioned above I don't see any reason to upgrade it for stage 1 or 2 tuning.

    Cheers
    Bobby
     
  10. V6 Quatt

    V6 Quatt Registered User

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    Nice work. ....
     
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  11. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Last week had to replace my front right wheel bearing, there was no play in the wheel and the outer bearing appeared fine.
    On removal the rear bearing was running dry.

    The bearing was seized inside the hub carrier and even broke my sliding hammer.

    Managed to remove it though:

    [​IMG]

    S4 Brake upgrade

    Managed to get my hands on a full Audi S4 set up

    345mm front

    330mm Rears (vented)

    Pads looked in good shape so I made use of them and changed the brake fluid out for some ATE 200.

    [​IMG]

    Stock rears:

    [​IMG]

    S4 rears:

    [​IMG]

    Front’s:

    [​IMG]

    4bar map sensor

    On the tuning side I've mounted a 4 bar map sensor now and will try more boost to see if 700nm can be cracked.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
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  13. ash-k

    ash-k Guest

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    Nice great work... Lovely car.
     
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  14. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Looking good Bobby, I find the S4 brake upgrade was a good step over the standard brakes fitted to the 3.0 TDI and matches the performance well.
    Very good of Audi to fit one size of rear brake shields so one less thing to sort.
    Strangely I think I have a front right wheel bearing issue as well. I noticed a faint speed related drone from the front right corner of the car a few weeks ago. This appears to be getting louder although there is no play in the wheel at all.
    I would normally do stuff like this myself but it looks like the bearing and hub need to be pressed out and the use of a hydraulic press is the way to go.
    What were the symptoms on your car.

    Karl.
     
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  15. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Hi Karl, the pads that came with the S4 kit are Audi (well Jurid actually) and they perform much better than my old generic stuff. Agree with you on the brake shield, no need for the angle grinder :)

    On my car the wheel bearing start to make a sound that I only describe as a WW2 fighter plane and would only start from 20mph onwards.
    I think there is a common issue with wheel bearings on these cars - seem to a few threads on the internet.
    FYI I used SNR brand which is German - around £80ish.
    The hub comes away from the bearing without too much effort, but yes you need a press or if you have big enough vice to apply equal force.

    There is another option and that is to buy the bearing with the hub but I tried all the usual supplier and no one had stock.

    Bobby
     
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  16. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Thanks for that Bobby it sounds pretty much the same as my car only starts around 20 mph and I know what you mean about the WW2 figther, it's kind of a droneing noise. I have been looking around and you can get an SNR bearing from carparts4less for £65 with the discount.
    I was looking for a complete assembly too as you can get them for the B5, B6,B7 , But the only one I could find for the B8 is a Chinese made effort that will probably not have a good bearing.
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUD-A4-B8...-FRONT-REAR-/301645022126?hash=item463b71c3ae
    Surprised a company such as SKF , Febi or Meyle haven't produced a complet part yet.

    Karl.
     
  17. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Strangely GSF said they can supply febi branded hub and bearing but had non in stock nation wide. I needed the bearing asap I just purchased over the counter.
    Also, you will need a big torque wrench - the hub bolt requires 200nm plus 180 deg. The 4 bolts holding the bearing in place are 80nm plus 90deg.

    Cheers
     
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  18. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Went for a second power run today
    Peak power hasn't increased as expected (turbo cannot flow any more air top end) however nice healthy increase in torque and power is holding much better now.

    317hp 720nm

    [​IMG]

    Here you can see the difference between stage 1 and 2

    [​IMG]

    Again air charge temp hit 86deg.

    Next is intercooler and exhaust and that'll be the max available from a 2260.

    Cheers
    Bobby
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
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  19. adamss24

    adamss24 Registered User

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    I did not follow the thread too much in depth (not much time lately !) but how much boost is the turbo running ? I too have a friend with a 3.0 Tdi a5 and after a dpf delete and stage 2 Revo tune the car is performing well- no dino printout yet however from logs it looks like he gets the power with just 1.7 Bar of boost and afaik the gtb2260vk can sustain 2.5 Bar of boost without bother ! I find it a bit odd you guys cannot get more than 316 Bhp especially as you got 0.5L of displacement more than what i am used to !
    Strong results nevertheless...Keep up the good work !
     
  20. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Chris Im now running 2.1bar in the midrange - its was required to crack 700nm. Peak power didn't change much as the turbo is now on the edge of the compressor map. If you have the 2260 compressor map you can see with 900kg/h we are already over .25kg/sec.
    Map is only plotted to 165k rpm we are at approx 178k rpm.

    On top of the EGT limiter already kicked in and limits the fuel in higher gears. Off course these can be removed or even adjusted but they are there for safety.

    Based on the above information running more boost at the top end is not really where I want to be.

    Maybe you can convince your friend to dyno at Surrey Rolling Road to get a direct comparsion? Will be interesting.

    On the road it pulls really well.
     
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  21. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    My car only runs 1.8 bar of boost to get the 720Nm I have on my car.
    You would be able to get more boost with a smaller capacity engine because you have less mass flow.
    I really think you need a larger intercooler Bobby, less boost pressure loss across the core and better cooling especially on a dyno where a smaller intercooler will struggle with the poor airflow the fans put out.
    If you have a look at this video you can see the boost pressure this car is running.Peaks about 2.2 - 2.3 bar.

    The cars that are making 400bhp have pretty large IC's in them.

    http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=385304

    The more boost you try and get out of the turbo the further the vanes have to close up in the VNT to try and get the compressor upto speed. This causes very high pressure in the manifold and high EGT's . The standard EGT limit on the 3.0 TDI appears to be 850 degrees C which is low for one of these turbo's.Audi are being very protective of the turbo. I have my EGT map tweaked upto 900 degrees.

    Hatemi has done lots of work with the 3.0 TDI and fitted hybrids on it. Some of the stuff he has posted is quite interesting. There is a power run with boost about 2.1 bar and one with 2.3 bar. The difference in power is very marginal, the EMP logged on the 2.3 bar map goes off the scale.
    This is with a hybrid turbo but the same applies to the standard turbo, more so I think.
    http://www.audiclub.fi/audifinns/showthread.php?t=70414&page=3
     
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  22. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Hi Karl - on the dyno the air temp is getting high for sure. My next upgrades are intercooler and exhaust.
    Measuring the EMP's is something I need to get around to doing - I'll use the EGR port one when i fit the exhaust in the coming weeks.
    You may run higher EGT's but the turbo itself can not flow anymore air top end.
    In the mid range I'm now running 91mg/s without pressure drop - it pull very nicely and keeps you pinned. Every gear change brings another wave of power.

    With 1.8bar what kind of terminal speed have you reached on a 1/4 mile run?
     
  23. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    The fastest I have run on the 1/4 was at GTI International this year 13.25 105 mph .
    The problem I found with the EGT's was when you had a sustained high speed run it would hit 850 degrees and the protection would kick in. It's quite a severe fuel cut which caused me some concern when it first happened.
    Hopefully refitting the hybrid again soon to see if I can get that working correctly. The hybrid pulls so much easier and better at higher RPM than the standard turbo, there is also a good reduction in EMP as would be expected.
    That's with no changes to the map.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
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  24. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Any runs at santa pod?
    Im keeping the egt's on the safe side - I've seen some tunes where all torq limiter (air, oil temp, egt's) have been removed and they call it a "race tune".
    Another thing to measure is exhaust pressure to see how well the stock exhaust flows - I'll be using the deltaP sensor pressure line for that.
     
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  25. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    I was the fastest diesel at the GTI Festival in October last year at Santa Pod.
    13.3 s 104 mph
    Karls 3.0 TDI build thread
    I think the standard exhaust is good as long as you remove the baffles from the rear boxes. I have logged the pressure sensor readings and they are quite reasonable. Compared to the back pressure created by the turbo, the exhaust back pressure is fairly insignificant.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  26. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    16/9/15 Wagner intercooler (competition)

    Excellent quality item - Mark @ Wagner has opened me an account so can get these at discounted price if required.

    [​IMG]


    Hopefully get this fitted on the weekend and then exhaust

    19/9/15

    Intercooler fitted & pressure drop test performed

    Take off adaptor made for inlet manifold

    [​IMG]

    For the turbo compressor side got a 57mm pipe, drilled a hole and fitted a M8 nut & bolt with a hole in the centre. Then in the map made some changes to the dpf delta P sensor so that it be used for pressure drop testing.

    Intercooler

    Stock Vs Wanger:

    [​IMG]

    Rubbish behind the old intercooler:

    Shocked how well it was working with this behind it

    [​IMG]

    Mounted
    Modified the mounting to get more threads on the bolt

    [​IMG]

    Stock intercooler (and pipework) produced 226 mbar pressure drop
    Wagner intercooler (and pipework) produced peak pressure drop of 210mabr

    Throughout the rpm range the wagner produced less pressure drop generally - good news for the turbo.

    I will now test with different pipe work to see if i can bring the pressure drop further down.

    On temp side the difference is outstanding - peak temp showed 19 deg @ 4600rpm - impressive

    While I was in a testing mode I monitored the exhaust back pressure and peak figure of 130mbar was seen, meaning I don't expect much of a power increase from the exhaust.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
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  27. NotNormal

    NotNormal Active Member VCDS Map User

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    Any noticeable increase in lag ?
     
  28. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    No difference in lag.
    Only good things seen :)
    Better flow
    Lower temps
    Good fitment
     
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  29. V6 Quatt

    V6 Quatt Registered User

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    :respekt:Excellent work Bobby,

    Speak soon, got your mail today to me and Sean

     
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  30. Chop.

    Chop. Registered User

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    some cracking work and nice motor
     
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  31. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Thanks - trying to keep it as stock looking as possible (well externally anyways).
     
  32. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Looking good Bobby, I am not surprised at the reduction in intake temps, the standard intercooler doesn't really cut it when it's mapped. I am a little surprised that the pressure drop wasn't a bit more between the standard and Wagner .
     
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  34. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Yes Karl - the flow of the stock intercooler wasn't so bad, but i would like to half the pressure drop end to end.
    Once I've had more time to experiment I'll post a update.

    Cheers
     
  35. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    27/9/15 - Egr and Swirl flaps delete

    It's been something that I wanted to do for a while, but I couldn't find any information on the internet about deleting the egr cooler - I didn't know what to expect.

    EGR cooler removed :

    Note the lower intakes which houses the swirl flaps also need to be removed

    [​IMG]

    Here you can see the space generated:

    [​IMG]

    EGR cooler:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Once removed I noticed the Cooler was plumbed into the block:

    [​IMG]

    I could think of one solutiuon and that was to hack the egr cooler for the OEM fitting (at this point I really hoped my idea would work):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Worked well:

    [​IMG]

    Cleaned up the lower intake:

    [​IMG]

    Removed the swirl flaps:

    [​IMG]

    Note the following bushes must be inserted back into the intake to support the rubber gasket

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Made a EGR blanking plate for monitoring EMP

    [​IMG]

    Looks like this now:

    [​IMG]

    I need to re work the breather pipe which will make a little more space around the turbo

    For now I have some DTC to kill :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  36. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Wow Bobby you are brave chopping up the EGR cooler to plug the hole remaining when it was removed. If it didn't work that was going to be a bit of a nightmare. I thought about removing mine as it's just dead weight and also should allow a lot more air to pass easily across the top of the engine to the turbo. But I could see the issues by looking at pictures of EGR coolers so decided not to bother.

    I don't think the swirl flaps get in the way of the flow very much as in comparison to the size of the intake port they are a lot bigger.
    I used a pneumatic fitting on my manifold as a pressure take off point for the boost gauge.
    Very tidy and looks almost OE.
    It's a fixed 90 degree elbow for 4mm pneumatic pipe with an 8 * 1mm thread.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Pres...s-Tube-/271182576634?var=&hash=item3f23bdbbfa

    [​IMG]

    As regards potential pressure drops in the system I have looked into this and there is a noise suppressor on the outlet pipe of the turbo which may be causing some flow restriction.
    I have looked into replacing the pipe from the turbo outlet to the intercooler to remove this possible restriction, haven't got around to this yet though. I have used the DPF pressure sensor on my car to measure all kinds of things, intake pressure drops , differential pressure across pipes etc, It's very handy.
     
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  37. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Yes Karl as soon as the angle grinder comes out you know you've entered the point of no return :)
    The swirl flaps have been removed to save hassle in the future and to increase air flow - like i mentioned I have a few DTC's as a result of this - I'll clean them up from the file when I get some time.
    Thanks for the link - this is only for testing purposes and will be removed once the pressure drop is more acceptable. I have noticed the muffler on the intercooler pipe I will install a 1/8 npt tail and see how much of a bottle neck that really is.
    Either way 50mm pipework does seem small.
    The stock the dpf sensor has model which is why there is only one pipe connected to the dpf as stock did you also have make changes in the map to make use of the delta P sensor? On the CAPA engine are both pressure sensors connected?

    Cheers
    Bobby
     
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  38. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Managed to remove all DTC's now so no more MIL
    Done EMP test and recorded 3.8bar peak
    Its near double of boost so pushing any further on this set up is a no go at the top end.

    Exhaust order has been placed.

    I've also noticed since doing the EGR cooler delete my water temp only gets to 90deg in town driving.
    I will need to re use the coolant inline thermostat which was on the stock set up.


    Cheers
    Bobby
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  39. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Hello Bobby, My car peaks just under 3 bar around 42 PSI but I am not running as much boost as you I don't think.
    I use torque pro with the track recorder functionality and a cheap bluetooth dongle to get the RPM and boost reading on the video.
    Problem is the boost reading seems to peg at around 22.5 PSI on torque pro when in fact it is making 26 PSI around 1.8 bar which I can see when logging it on VCDS. My assistant is not good at holding the phone steady.
    When you reach a certain point small increases in boost give you a much bigger increase in EMP, To try and make more boost the ECU closes up the VNT vanes even more which causes a big increase in EMP. So the small increase in performance you gain from the extra boost is mainly lost in pumping losses and your EGT's will be higher.The small size of the exhaust turbine is the real limit with the standard turbo.

    [​IMG]
     
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  40. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Hi Karl yes the EMP is just about acceptable - does make me wonder how a 2260 hybrid will perform as they normally just run a bigger compressor wheel.
    My egt's hit 850 so they are still ok.

    Btw find another assistant :)

    Cheers
     
  41. adamss24

    adamss24 Registered User

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    Bobby, you can use a bmw 530d turbine if you want just a mild upgrade for your turbo. It's a tiny bit bigger than the gtb 2260vk and has better flowing hotside + it will support a 65mm billet compressor with ease. The downside is that the collector and exhaust ports are v band type but are easy to source from ebay...
    There is a portughese chap selling compressor wheels on ebay under the name of skillaturbo, he used to sell some amg gt23 turbine with twin seals shaft, he stopped selling them last year- maybe he can share some info where he got them from. With the 2 seal shafts you should not be running in the same problems as Karl with his hybrid- i hope !
     
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  42. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR Gold Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Nice info there Chris thanks
    But I suspect the hybrid will make around 370hp within safe limits?
     
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  43. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Those turbines that Skillaturbo used to sell were I think these, fractionally larger than a standard 2260 but not as big as the C30 AMG wheel.
    http://www.turbointernational.com/catalog/product/view/id/44966/category/17/
    but they were cutback as well to improve flow. Cutback wheels are not so good for bottom end response.
    My initial idea with a hybrid was just to fit a larger compressor to a standard turbo but I was put off as ultimately the standard turbine outlet is a very big restriction. It will perform better than a standard turbo as you will be able to keep the turbine speed down so more efficient and less of a hot air generator. When I have had the hybrid fitted to mine with the same map as the standard one the difference above 3.5K RPM is very marked, it revs so much easier and stronger, in second gear and 3rd gear just flies upto 5K and maintains the boost levels easily.
     
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