Bobby Singh A4 3.0 TDI build thread

adamss24

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Looks good without dpf in there ! The welding is good however the chap is spending too much time tidying the welds which is not a bad thing... also came off very easy, last 2 a5's i have done required engine dropping or turbo + collector manifold removal in order to squeeze past...i was requested to open, gut, weld then refit original dpf housing for stock look !
 

bobby singh

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Welding and fitting has been spot - I'm very impressed.
Once the fire wall is removed there is plenty of space (also gives me confidence for future plans). The worst dpf job i done was on a bmw 335d (e90) - what a pita.

Would you have part number for the Y collector? I want to experiment with mounting.
 

adamss24

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I do have a whole collector manifold and link pipes Bobby, you can borrow it if you want...pop in at my garage in Chingford one day...
 

NotNormal

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@bobby singh my A6 has the two corner mount intercoolers, reasonable flow too the cooler, but out the back the air has nowhere to flow too.
The arch liner is solid, so the air passing though the heat exchangers has nowhere to vent too

My engine code is CYDA.
Currently running a sedox preformance map - circa 300 bhp

I have the KWE FMIC ready to fit, just need to actually get round to fitting it.

I'd be interested in a more bespoke remap ..... ;-)
 

bobby singh

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I do have a whole collector manifold and link pipes Bobby, you can borrow it if you want...pop in at my garage in Chingford one day...

You won't get the Y section back as I plan on cutting it etc :)
No problem I'll source one
Cheers

@bobby singh my A6 has the two corner mount intercoolers, reasonable flow too the cooler, but out the back the air has nowhere to flow too.
The arch liner is solid, so the air passing though the heat exchangers has nowhere to vent too

My engine code is CYDA.
Currently running a sedox preformance map - circa 300 bhp

I have the KWE FMIC ready to fit, just need to actually get round to fitting it.

I'd be interested in a more bespoke remap ..... ;-)

In that case you've made the right decision with the fmic. I'll be getting a FMIC soon just need to make sure the connections are big enough etc.
Do all the mods first and then tune :)
 

TahirS

It is all about that BEARD!
Removed the DPF pipe yesterday and fitted the 3" delete pipe.

Impressive fit.







Performs much better during low and mid-range rpm now.

Still need to perform some logging to see if the N75 requires a tweak as the dpf restriction has been removed.

There is zero smoke which is great.

After logging I will establish if there is any scope for more fuel.


Cheers
Bobby

@bobby singh, This is really impressive. I'm not clued up on mechanics but I can compute numbers and your diesel is likely to put many petrol engines to shame. I'm thinking of doing a mechanics course at my local college to learn some basics, at the minute the stealers are robbing me and I want to learn some simple stuff. It'll be a long time before I'm confident but seeing your images is inspiring.

THANKS FOR SHARING
 

desertstorm

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Hi Bobby looking good. I noticed you disconnected the heater pipes when you replaced the DPF, I don't remove those on mine as I find you can remove the aluminum shield with some persuasion with those pipes in place.
Good result for the standard engine nearly 260 bhp.
I did some logging on my car before and after changing the DPF to see what difference it made. Logging both intake temps and boost pressures along with the VNT position . I figured that the boost pressure would be the same regardless as the ECU would alter the vane position to produce the same boost. But with a larger intercooler you should get less pressure loss across the intercooler so turbo would actually have to produce a little less boost for the same end result.
The logs I took seem to show this with lower temperatures and the VNT on the turbo being open more for the same boost pressure at the same RPM, So less pressure loss across the intercooler and less exhaust pressure with the vanes being open further.
This was before the car was mapped but was running a tuning box.
Click the link below to goto the intercooler install in my car .

Karls 3.0 TDI build thread

There are many larger intercoolers that people fit, the one I chose I think is a good compromise on size and cost. some are pretty large and quite expensive.

http://www.wagner-tuning.uk/200001054.html
 
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bobby singh

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Hi Karl,

The heater pipes were clamped so lost very little coolant and meant i could remove the section with ease.
I've made some logs after turn the dpf off and found some slight overboost approx 80mabr.
There is also some work required in a torq limiter (egt factor) since turning the dpf off.

Before and after dpf I found my air charge temp to be the same at ~45deg.

Based on the lambda readings and EGT's the limits of the stock 2260 are close now.

As for the intercooler I've been in touch with Mark @ wagner for BMW 335d in the past and he has kindly opened me an account.

Wagner actually offer two types of intercoolers for this car, but like I mentioned above I don't see any reason to upgrade it for stage 1 or 2 tuning.

Cheers
Bobby
 

bobby singh

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Last week had to replace my front right wheel bearing, there was no play in the wheel and the outer bearing appeared fine.
On removal the rear bearing was running dry.

The bearing was seized inside the hub carrier and even broke my sliding hammer.

Managed to remove it though:

GrVJmxe.jpg


S4 Brake upgrade

Managed to get my hands on a full Audi S4 set up

345mm front

330mm Rears (vented)

Pads looked in good shape so I made use of them and changed the brake fluid out for some ATE 200.

9t6vL3k.jpg


Stock rears:

mBApbyA.jpg


S4 rears:

62Zv7cG.jpg


Front’s:

VqY2rhi.jpg


4bar map sensor

On the tuning side I've mounted a 4 bar map sensor now and will try more boost to see if 700nm can be cracked.

ragb8Wz.jpg
 
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desertstorm

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Looking good Bobby, I find the S4 brake upgrade was a good step over the standard brakes fitted to the 3.0 TDI and matches the performance well.
Very good of Audi to fit one size of rear brake shields so one less thing to sort.
Strangely I think I have a front right wheel bearing issue as well. I noticed a faint speed related drone from the front right corner of the car a few weeks ago. This appears to be getting louder although there is no play in the wheel at all.
I would normally do stuff like this myself but it looks like the bearing and hub need to be pressed out and the use of a hydraulic press is the way to go.
What were the symptoms on your car.

Karl.
 

bobby singh

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Hi Karl, the pads that came with the S4 kit are Audi (well Jurid actually) and they perform much better than my old generic stuff. Agree with you on the brake shield, no need for the angle grinder :)

On my car the wheel bearing start to make a sound that I only describe as a WW2 fighter plane and would only start from 20mph onwards.
I think there is a common issue with wheel bearings on these cars - seem to a few threads on the internet.
FYI I used SNR brand which is German - around £80ish.
The hub comes away from the bearing without too much effort, but yes you need a press or if you have big enough vice to apply equal force.

There is another option and that is to buy the bearing with the hub but I tried all the usual supplier and no one had stock.

Bobby
 

desertstorm

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Thanks for that Bobby it sounds pretty much the same as my car only starts around 20 mph and I know what you mean about the WW2 figther, it's kind of a droneing noise. I have been looking around and you can get an SNR bearing from carparts4less for £65 with the discount.
I was looking for a complete assembly too as you can get them for the B5, B6,B7 , But the only one I could find for the B8 is a Chinese made effort that will probably not have a good bearing.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUD-A4-B8...-FRONT-REAR-/301645022126?hash=item463b71c3ae
Surprised a company such as SKF , Febi or Meyle haven't produced a complet part yet.

Karl.
 

bobby singh

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Strangely GSF said they can supply febi branded hub and bearing but had non in stock nation wide. I needed the bearing asap I just purchased over the counter.
Also, you will need a big torque wrench - the hub bolt requires 200nm plus 180 deg. The 4 bolts holding the bearing in place are 80nm plus 90deg.

Cheers
 

bobby singh

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Went for a second power run today
Peak power hasn't increased as expected (turbo cannot flow any more air top end) however nice healthy increase in torque and power is holding much better now.

317hp 720nm

LQEJCGQ.jpg


Here you can see the difference between stage 1 and 2

YeT5awP.jpg


Again air charge temp hit 86deg.

Next is intercooler and exhaust and that'll be the max available from a 2260.

Cheers
Bobby
 
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adamss24

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I did not follow the thread too much in depth (not much time lately !) but how much boost is the turbo running ? I too have a friend with a 3.0 Tdi a5 and after a dpf delete and stage 2 Revo tune the car is performing well- no dino printout yet however from logs it looks like he gets the power with just 1.7 Bar of boost and afaik the gtb2260vk can sustain 2.5 Bar of boost without bother ! I find it a bit odd you guys cannot get more than 316 Bhp especially as you got 0.5L of displacement more than what i am used to !
Strong results nevertheless...Keep up the good work !
 

bobby singh

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Chris Im now running 2.1bar in the midrange - its was required to crack 700nm. Peak power didn't change much as the turbo is now on the edge of the compressor map. If you have the 2260 compressor map you can see with 900kg/h we are already over .25kg/sec.
Map is only plotted to 165k rpm we are at approx 178k rpm.

On top of the EGT limiter already kicked in and limits the fuel in higher gears. Off course these can be removed or even adjusted but they are there for safety.

Based on the above information running more boost at the top end is not really where I want to be.

Maybe you can convince your friend to dyno at Surrey Rolling Road to get a direct comparsion? Will be interesting.

On the road it pulls really well.
 

desertstorm

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My car only runs 1.8 bar of boost to get the 720Nm I have on my car.
You would be able to get more boost with a smaller capacity engine because you have less mass flow.
I really think you need a larger intercooler Bobby, less boost pressure loss across the core and better cooling especially on a dyno where a smaller intercooler will struggle with the poor airflow the fans put out.
If you have a look at this video you can see the boost pressure this car is running.Peaks about 2.2 - 2.3 bar.
The cars that are making 400bhp have pretty large IC's in them.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=385304

The more boost you try and get out of the turbo the further the vanes have to close up in the VNT to try and get the compressor upto speed. This causes very high pressure in the manifold and high EGT's . The standard EGT limit on the 3.0 TDI appears to be 850 degrees C which is low for one of these turbo's.Audi are being very protective of the turbo. I have my EGT map tweaked upto 900 degrees.

Hatemi has done lots of work with the 3.0 TDI and fitted hybrids on it. Some of the stuff he has posted is quite interesting. There is a power run with boost about 2.1 bar and one with 2.3 bar. The difference in power is very marginal, the EMP logged on the 2.3 bar map goes off the scale.
This is with a hybrid turbo but the same applies to the standard turbo, more so I think.
http://www.audiclub.fi/audifinns/showthread.php?t=70414&page=3
 

bobby singh

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Hi Karl - on the dyno the air temp is getting high for sure. My next upgrades are intercooler and exhaust.
Measuring the EMP's is something I need to get around to doing - I'll use the EGR port one when i fit the exhaust in the coming weeks.
You may run higher EGT's but the turbo itself can not flow anymore air top end.
In the mid range I'm now running 91mg/s without pressure drop - it pull very nicely and keeps you pinned. Every gear change brings another wave of power.

With 1.8bar what kind of terminal speed have you reached on a 1/4 mile run?
 

desertstorm

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The fastest I have run on the 1/4 was at GTI International this year 13.25 105 mph .
The problem I found with the EGT's was when you had a sustained high speed run it would hit 850 degrees and the protection would kick in. It's quite a severe fuel cut which caused me some concern when it first happened.
Hopefully refitting the hybrid again soon to see if I can get that working correctly. The hybrid pulls so much easier and better at higher RPM than the standard turbo, there is also a good reduction in EMP as would be expected.
That's with no changes to the map.
 
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bobby singh

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Any runs at santa pod?
Im keeping the egt's on the safe side - I've seen some tunes where all torq limiter (air, oil temp, egt's) have been removed and they call it a "race tune".
Another thing to measure is exhaust pressure to see how well the stock exhaust flows - I'll be using the deltaP sensor pressure line for that.
 

desertstorm

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I was the fastest diesel at the GTI Festival in October last year at Santa Pod.
13.3 s 104 mph
Karls 3.0 TDI build thread
I think the standard exhaust is good as long as you remove the baffles from the rear boxes. I have logged the pressure sensor readings and they are quite reasonable. Compared to the back pressure created by the turbo, the exhaust back pressure is fairly insignificant.
 
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bobby singh

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16/9/15 Wagner intercooler (competition)

Excellent quality item - Mark @ Wagner has opened me an account so can get these at discounted price if required.

RmTTsdA.jpg



Hopefully get this fitted on the weekend and then exhaust

19/9/15

Intercooler fitted & pressure drop test performed

Take off adaptor made for inlet manifold

mibTzkW.jpg


For the turbo compressor side got a 57mm pipe, drilled a hole and fitted a M8 nut & bolt with a hole in the centre. Then in the map made some changes to the dpf delta P sensor so that it be used for pressure drop testing.

Intercooler

Stock Vs Wanger:

RjMBBch.jpg


Rubbish behind the old intercooler:

Shocked how well it was working with this behind it

TvKFRUF.jpg


Mounted
Modified the mounting to get more threads on the bolt

ICganrZ.jpg


Stock intercooler (and pipework) produced 226 mbar pressure drop
Wagner intercooler (and pipework) produced peak pressure drop of 210mabr

Throughout the rpm range the wagner produced less pressure drop generally - good news for the turbo.

I will now test with different pipe work to see if i can bring the pressure drop further down.

On temp side the difference is outstanding - peak temp showed 19 deg @ 4600rpm - impressive

While I was in a testing mode I monitored the exhaust back pressure and peak figure of 130mbar was seen, meaning I don't expect much of a power increase from the exhaust.
 
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bobby singh

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27/9/15 - Egr and Swirl flaps delete

It's been something that I wanted to do for a while, but I couldn't find any information on the internet about deleting the egr cooler - I didn't know what to expect.

EGR cooler removed :

Note the lower intakes which houses the swirl flaps also need to be removed

xPbDuax.jpg


Here you can see the space generated:

NiS3o4y.jpg


EGR cooler:

u3Cn8Hp.jpg


Ys0r9xo.jpg


Once removed I noticed the Cooler was plumbed into the block:

JzerZ6T.jpg


I could think of one solutiuon and that was to hack the egr cooler for the OEM fitting (at this point I really hoped my idea would work):

yP3tmx7.jpg


2R2u1tM.jpg


Worked well:

wK2ULPr.jpg


Cleaned up the lower intake:

zKpWlvN.jpg


Removed the swirl flaps:

luEJ3wC.jpg


Note the following bushes must be inserted back into the intake to support the rubber gasket

Ax87khX.jpg


mpEK58h.jpg


Made a EGR blanking plate for monitoring EMP

tRKRaa1.jpg


Looks like this now:

UEZCiz3.jpg


I need to re work the breather pipe which will make a little more space around the turbo

For now I have some DTC to kill :)
 
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desertstorm

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Wow Bobby you are brave chopping up the EGR cooler to plug the hole remaining when it was removed. If it didn't work that was going to be a bit of a nightmare. I thought about removing mine as it's just dead weight and also should allow a lot more air to pass easily across the top of the engine to the turbo. But I could see the issues by looking at pictures of EGR coolers so decided not to bother.

I don't think the swirl flaps get in the way of the flow very much as in comparison to the size of the intake port they are a lot bigger.
I used a pneumatic fitting on my manifold as a pressure take off point for the boost gauge.
Very tidy and looks almost OE.
It's a fixed 90 degree elbow for 4mm pneumatic pipe with an 8 * 1mm thread.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Pres...s-Tube-/271182576634?var=&hash=item3f23bdbbfa



As regards potential pressure drops in the system I have looked into this and there is a noise suppressor on the outlet pipe of the turbo which may be causing some flow restriction.
I have looked into replacing the pipe from the turbo outlet to the intercooler to remove this possible restriction, haven't got around to this yet though. I have used the DPF pressure sensor on my car to measure all kinds of things, intake pressure drops , differential pressure across pipes etc, It's very handy.
 

bobby singh

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Yes Karl as soon as the angle grinder comes out you know you've entered the point of no return :)
The swirl flaps have been removed to save hassle in the future and to increase air flow - like i mentioned I have a few DTC's as a result of this - I'll clean them up from the file when I get some time.
Thanks for the link - this is only for testing purposes and will be removed once the pressure drop is more acceptable. I have noticed the muffler on the intercooler pipe I will install a 1/8 npt tail and see how much of a bottle neck that really is.
Either way 50mm pipework does seem small.
The stock the dpf sensor has model which is why there is only one pipe connected to the dpf as stock did you also have make changes in the map to make use of the delta P sensor? On the CAPA engine are both pressure sensors connected?

Cheers
Bobby
 

bobby singh

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Managed to remove all DTC's now so no more MIL
Done EMP test and recorded 3.8bar peak
Its near double of boost so pushing any further on this set up is a no go at the top end.

Exhaust order has been placed.

I've also noticed since doing the EGR cooler delete my water temp only gets to 90deg in town driving.
I will need to re use the coolant inline thermostat which was on the stock set up.


Cheers
Bobby
 
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desertstorm

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Hello Bobby, My car peaks just under 3 bar around 42 PSI but I am not running as much boost as you I don't think.
I use torque pro with the track recorder functionality and a cheap bluetooth dongle to get the RPM and boost reading on the video.
Problem is the boost reading seems to peg at around 22.5 PSI on torque pro when in fact it is making 26 PSI around 1.8 bar which I can see when logging it on VCDS. My assistant is not good at holding the phone steady.
When you reach a certain point small increases in boost give you a much bigger increase in EMP, To try and make more boost the ECU closes up the VNT vanes even more which causes a big increase in EMP. So the small increase in performance you gain from the extra boost is mainly lost in pumping losses and your EGT's will be higher.The small size of the exhaust turbine is the real limit with the standard turbo.

 

adamss24

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Bobby, you can use a bmw 530d turbine if you want just a mild upgrade for your turbo. It's a tiny bit bigger than the gtb 2260vk and has better flowing hotside + it will support a 65mm billet compressor with ease. The downside is that the collector and exhaust ports are v band type but are easy to source from ebay...
There is a portughese chap selling compressor wheels on ebay under the name of skillaturbo, he used to sell some amg gt23 turbine with twin seals shaft, he stopped selling them last year- maybe he can share some info where he got them from. With the 2 seal shafts you should not be running in the same problems as Karl with his hybrid- i hope !
 

desertstorm

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Those turbines that Skillaturbo used to sell were I think these, fractionally larger than a standard 2260 but not as big as the C30 AMG wheel.
http://www.turbointernational.com/catalog/product/view/id/44966/category/17/
but they were cutback as well to improve flow. Cutback wheels are not so good for bottom end response.
My initial idea with a hybrid was just to fit a larger compressor to a standard turbo but I was put off as ultimately the standard turbine outlet is a very big restriction. It will perform better than a standard turbo as you will be able to keep the turbine speed down so more efficient and less of a hot air generator. When I have had the hybrid fitted to mine with the same map as the standard one the difference above 3.5K RPM is very marked, it revs so much easier and stronger, in second gear and 3rd gear just flies upto 5K and maintains the boost levels easily.
 
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