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BITDI 0-60 times

The Black Panther Jan 25, 2018

  1. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Tonight after being away from car for 5 weeks i tested the new OBD2 tool " CAR SCANNER " for measuring 0-60 times. It was a wet night. Temperature 7.5 degrees centigrade. App from apple store.

    • 3.902 secs
    • 3.997 secs
    • 4.139 secs IMG_8502.jpg IMG_8507.jpg IMG_8504.jpg


    IMG_8501.jpg
     
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  3. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Those OBD2 tools are pretty useless for measuring 0-60 and acceleration times accurately. The sample rate is just not high enough and the speed readings are innacurate.
    Just look at the results.
    0-20 mph in 0.288s is nearly 3.2g acceleration lol
    On the third run it took 3.159 seconds to get to 40mph then only another 0.838 seconds to get from 40-60
    On the fastest first run it took 1.8 seconds to get to 40, and another 2.1 seconds to get to 60. ??

    A road car is lucky to accelerate at anything much more than 1g . A Tesla doing 0-60 in 2.6 seconds is an average of 1.05 G acceleration.
    The main problem is the timing doesn't start accurately when the car starts moving. That's why the 0-20 times are silly. Also the speeds are determined by the wheel speed sensors, with wheel spin/slip these are innacurate.
    If you use the GPS on the phone this probably only provides 2 updates a second if you are lucky.
    I would guesstimate the actual 0-60 times were more like 4.5s
    something like a V-BOX samples at 20 times a second and is GPS accurate.
    Or get yourself to a quarter mile run what you brung.
     
  4. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Hello desert storm,

    If you can answer sequentially as i have written down

    • These OB2 are " pretty useless " and have " inaccurate speed ". Define the term useless ( tolerance ) and reference the actual maths to being able to accurately say this ? At the the moment it looks like opinion on your side. It might not be but evidence to back up helps a lot in validation.
    • Some people have the opposite opinion from yours. Which person is accurate ? Screen Shot 2018-01-25 at 07.11.00.png
    • On the third run it took 3.159 seconds to get to 40mph then only another 0.838 seconds to get from 40-60 - this is an error because each segment 0-20, 20-40 -, 40-60, 60-100 needs to be reset before each run - the circle with the arrow on it. I noticed the 3.159 seconds to get to 40mph time. Correct i notice that myself and that was an error one part as i did not do a reset on the 40 mph section.
    • I would guesstimate the actual 0-60 times were more like 4.5s - based on what maths ?
    What would you suggest to get an accurate 0-60 ? V box i dont know anyone who has one including the local tuner. Getting to a drag strip is not so easy for me to get the time to do. What are the option ?

     
  5. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Hi, I said they were innacurate and pretty usesless because they are compared to something like a V-box especially with a car that will be accelerating quickly. I don't need maths to prove that, common sense and a bit of knowledge is more than enough.
    Plus I have seen several reviews where these apps have been measured against a V-box and they pretty much always exagerate the performance of the car, some more than others.
    The evidence is in the results you posted. 0-20mph times are clearly wrong, have a look at this review of an RS6 and R8 using V-BOX figures.
    http://www.evo.co.uk/audi/r8/14173/audi-r8-v-audi-rs6-audi-r8-v-audi-rs6
    On a perfectly dry track the 0-30 time is around 1.6-1.7 seconds , your results are saying you are getting to 20mph in under 0.3s :whistle2: . Even the 0.8s time to 20mph is too quick for the car and the conditions. That's 1.14g acceleration .
    I forgot to link the calculator I used earlier.

    http://www.smartconversion.com/unit_calculation/Acceleration_calculator.aspx

    Running 0-30 in 1.6s is 0.85G acceleration a more sensible value, even assuming you could attain this value in the wet to get to 20mph would take around 1.1 s . As I said the big issue with the apps is detecting the actual point when you start moving and starting the timer correctly at that point.
    My guess and it is purely a guess was based on the fact that a more reasonable time for the 0-20 was around 1.1 - 1.2 seconds , adding the difference between that and the 0-20 time to the final time gives a ball park figure.
    So the one run that appeared to be the slowest at 4.1s was probably in reality the quickest. with a 0.8s time to 20 that was around 0.4s too quick. Add 0.4 onto 4.1 gives 4.5s.
    The run with a 0.3s 0-20 is around 0.8s too fast so add that onto 3.9s = 4.7s
     
  6. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    So just for note i got home at 11.30 pm ( was away for 5 weeks ) and took my car out for 30 mins and to try this app. Not a lot of time or prep and first try ever of using it. I only downloaded at airport last night waiting for connection flight. At some point i will try these 0-60 and 0-100 times again.

    Moving on.

    I forgot to mention traction control was off . launch control was applied and wheel spin did take place. Roads where very wet and may offer in part apiece of the possible explanation for the high 0-20 times.

    Also worthy of note my car has 912nm and the RS6 of 2008 had 644 nm and R8 had 429 nm. Both those cars now nearly 10 years old in terms of the current sequential turbo technology. Big difference and the devils in the detail in that article you posted its not comparable.

    Modern day RS6 is 699 NM running @6.9 secs.

    Here is audi RS5 BITDI with 381BHP and an extra 48v turbo glued to it running at 3.9Secs and keeps up with current stock RS6 unit 70 -80 mph until the RS6 starts to pull away. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-audi-rs5-tdi-diesel-prototype-drive-review

    Opinion / guess you placed below is based on an online calculator. Mmmmm.
    The run with a 0.3s 0-20 is around 0.8s too fast so add that onto 3.9s = 4.7s

    Earlier you said my car was running 4.5 ? what one is it ? It cant be both and id far rather take an OBD2 port reading as a real time reference especially with reference below.

    My reference from VCDS ross tech team one again.
    Screen Shot 2018-01-25 at 07.11.00.png



    http://www.evo.co.uk/audi/r8/14173/audi-r8-v-audi-rs6-audi-r8-v-audi-rs6. This should have been highlighted before pasting it as any reference.
    I think
     
  7. xpoweruk

    xpoweruk S4 B8 Smile Machine Team Ibis saloon Audi S4 quattro

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  8. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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  9. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Modern day RS6 is 699 NM running @3.9 secs not 6.9 secs.
     
  10. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    You choose to believe what you want.we could sit here all day trading numbers and links etc. Could you provide the link to the video of the car doing a 4.1s 0-60 run . If they only managed 4.1s, and I suspect it would be in ideal conditions, how does your car go 0.2 faster when it's pouring down with rain ?. I was trying to interpret the results you did have along with the knowledge I have to guesstimate a figure.
    It's pointless quoting big torque numbers as they are in your case irrelevent to what you are doing. Have you ever looked at the tacho ??
    What RPM does the car launch at ? When it's accelerating what kind of RPM's is it pulling ?
    [​IMG]
    Yes this car is making 900Nm but at around 2800 RPM . How often do you see the engine running at that speed when doing a 0-60. However with a petrol the peak torque appears a lot higher in the rev range. Typically your engine will be running around 3800 rpm plus which brings the torque figure down to around 800Nm and falling. Diesels have a limited power band. Your car will need to be in 3rd gear to hit 60mph . Pretty much any petrol performance car will hit 60 in second. One less gearchange and despite how quick the car changes gear it's not seemless.
    A petrol car may have less torque but bhp = torque x RPM and petrol cars of course rev a lot higher than a diesel.
    I have been running my car up and down 1/4 mile tracks for the last 4 years in various states of tune. It's picked up a fastest diesel trophy at GTI international the last 3 years. So I know the strengths and weaknesses of performance diesels. Your car is undoubtedly quick but it's not 3.9s quick in the pouring rain.
     
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  11. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    I think it doesn't matter how its presented to you either via power charts, rolling road figures, torque figures OBD2 apps or anything else your not going to like it as you have stated. The rolling road figures are deliberately false, the torque numbers are now irrelevant, your cars faster than JDR's - thats impossible i can't be 0.2 faster :salute:, Petrol engine change only two gears. Audi RS5 TDI doesnt exist or keep up with teh current RS6's Which is cool because your free to imagine it being this way.

    As you said we could trade figures all day.
    Meanwhile /
    Karls 382bhp A4 3.0 TDI build thread It's picked up a fastest diesel trophy at GTI international the last 3 years.
    Not against this it wouldn't. Look down below :whip:
    A6 Avant Black Edition BITDI @ 459 Bhp 912NM.
    Or are you now going to miraculously claim 382 bhp is faster than 459 bhp ? I would take that trophy right off you in heartbeat. Fess up this is what really troubles you about the BITDI's doesn't it :rock:

    So I know the strengths and weaknesses of performance diesels you say . Really Desert storm ? Not all of them you dont and certainly not on my car you dont. Perhaps on your own 3.0 TDI single turbo you might. But then again you might not be.


     
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  13. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    You are really insecure aren't you. Where ever did I say that my car was faster than yours, It won't be. What I did say is I have been running up and down 1/4 mile strips and doing track days in this car for the last 3-4 years. so I do know what I am talking about.
    Before that I used to run my Passat diesel at Santa Pod.
    You should come along to GTI International at Rockingham this year and show us all how it's done. They have accurate timing equipment that will tell you your 0-60. You may have an issue though as if @bobby singh was to turn up he would show you what a big single turbo would do. I saw him run a 12.1 113 mph 1/4 at GTI Interrnational 18 months ago . His car will easily be in the 11's now.
    There are also plenty of very quick RS3's , RS6's etc that will blow the doors off your car. Despite your 912Nm.
    I know you won't be able to come though because you will of cause be busy doing something else. :) .
     
  14. xJay1337

    xJay1337 New Member

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    Ooooo.
    This is the claimed 450hp with dpf in place car.
     
  15. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 quattro

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    Mr Audi - whereabouts in the country are you? maybe i can recommend a dyno in your local area.
    Or use this to locate a user with a vcds cable
    VCDS User Map

    Its good you are at least trying to do some timed runs :)

    With 440hp I had the following times as ref:

    0 - 60 4.2s
    0 - 100 9.3s
    0 - 120 13.9

    No LC here just old style brake boost :)
     
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  16. bobby singh

    bobby singh BSR VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 quattro

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  17. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    DPF surgery. Eh say no more. Mines had surgery but others have not.

     
  18. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Very good times Bobby. I had the Rev limit on the LC removed which i know will knacker my box in time. I know the brake pedal method :-0

    Ive been v busy this end with other stuff other than the car times etc etc. Ive been away for 9 weeks home for 1 week and then away for another 10 weeks Dubai, Oman, Denmark and Argentina.
    I know my car is very quick for what is and i know that with the right pioneering spirit and someone who can put the time and add hybrid turbos. injectors etc it will be massively quicker again. Remember everything on my car apart from the intercooler, RS6 air intake and Kn Filter + DPF surgery is stalk. Ive enquired but found no one so far going to STG4 and my conversations with JD say they are not going to do this as there is no demand for it. Like your Hybrid Bobby there will be a very selective audience and make for it plus reliability and failure percentage increase as the limits are increased and as someone rightly pointed out the BITDI is still relatively pricey to be pulling apart and modding the hardware further. If i find someone who has done this i will invertgiabte and study but i will not be the first to do this or gun pig my car in the name of doing so.

    Ive had my eye on the Tri turbo RS5 48V engine but i believe its now not going to come with the new C8 A6. There will be some 48 v hybrid system but lets see what version. Plus i will only go for that car if and when someone has Stg3 it successfully and then i will follow suit. So that'll be atleatrs 2 years post release.

    And then ive been test driving new
    R8 v10 plus - loved it. Proper
    Mclaren - 650 - not bad but overpriced
    911 Gt4 s - i know my BITDI is quicker and has lot more torque. The 911 was boring. Im waiting a test drive in a 911 turbo but not being home much at the moment and them not being in the dealer stock when I've been home has ment this hasn't happened yet .
    Lamb Huracan - to be tested yet.


    Dyno will not happen this home trip and neither with VCDS cable. When i get a window i will Pm message you Bobby. There is a very reputable tuner not very far from me with a 4x4 dyno who stg2 my car with everything stock on the car . I had requested Stg3 from them and their response ( as well as saying it wasn't possible and scoffing at the possibility and reply was very very very slowly ) was disappointing. They gave the same advise to other BITDI owners who they had also installed the wagner intercooler and i think the Rs6 air system and filter upgrade for namely that it cant go past approx 386 bhp - which is ball aches.

    So i went to Holland.

    After my tune in Holland knowing the significant difference in the performance in my car from the Stg 2 and the STg3 i went back to the the local tuner and said look guys you were incorrect and i have manged to get this thing sorted and tuned to 459bhp. I said to them do you want to test it on your DYNO and verify - thinking they would be interested in finding out if they had infact been a STG3 happening and how and if they could repeat this for other UK customers. The guy i spoke to said yes your welcome to come down but it'll cost you £35 and my reply was no your alright guys as tbh from my stg2 with you which i was really happy with and then your subsequent poor handling of my STG3 request you can forget it i wont be paying for a dyno. I had approached them with spirit of enterprise and exploration and intentions of sharing knowledge and experience not for them to garner £35. I felt offended by their handling of the whole thing tbh from the initial request to the end . I did get a nice email from the owner after wards but yes i felt let down by their customer handling and response not to mention their lack of interest overall. And they do tune a lot diesels mostly BMW though/

    Now these guys are very well known and a really good tuner who had an Rs6 as their brand demo and now have a newish ( new shape) 911 turbo. They do Lambos, 911, RS3 RS6, RS7, R8, M series a lot.







     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  19. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    After all that its nice to hear you say i have a championship beating car. :footy: According to you i was running a very slow car before at 4.7 Secs
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  20. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    If a dry day does come up and i have 30 mins i will look to put on some more times 0-120 and also the stats you asked for Bobby fuel rail pressure etc etc. Cant remember what else you asked for ?
    If you list here it will be easier than me trying to find you other post on the subject. Thanks
     
  21. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Got them Bobby. Will update once i work out of what i have is capable of getting the figures and i get a decent time window.

    Mean injected quantity
    Lambda
    Rail pressure
    Egt
     
  22. The Black Panther

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    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  23. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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  24. ross27

    ross27 Active Member

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    Ecotune then?

    Had my Bitdi mapped by them about 14 months ago now. Dyno was 395hp (facelift 320hp model fyi)

    Been happy with it however Stan had some trouble with mine and he was working on the car for a out 8 hours in total (while i sat waiting). I dont think it is perfect, and sometimes feel a slight flat spot around 3k rpm, and MPG struggles to get about 42 now (used to see 50+ on a gentle drive)

    With that said, the power is great and just keeps pulling. Would love to push it further, but i think id rather put the money into a new motor now.


     
  25. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Once you had a STG2 going back to stock for while say for servicing lets you realise how much of difference even 395 BHP is compared to orginal.
    Do you have intercooler & intake upgrade ?
     
  26. ross27

    ross27 Active Member

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    Nothing else done to the car, just the remap. Going to be changing it soon, shortlist consist of the following;

    RS3
    S5 (B9)
    540i
    E43
    C63 (At a push)
    M3

    Mixed choice of motors but just cant decide. Worried i will miss that masses of torque from the Bitdi.
     
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  27. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Yes its addictive.
    Rs3 looks good car but equally the Golf R and S3 with the APR StG3 MQB @536 BHP.
    Also seen some lovely S1 @500 BHP
    Lets see what the C8 Platform will offer in terns of the 48 V Tri turbo systems.
     
  28. xJay1337

    xJay1337 New Member

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    Yes. To a point. We all know cooler air is denser air
    Ultimately you have an intercooler for a reason.
    And ambient temps at the moment are not hot enough to cause issues. And plenty of air flow.

    Surprised you have all this time on your hands to drive these fancy cars considering you are off working all over the world.
     
  29. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    It's not a championship it's a competition on the day. To win you have to be there though.You also have to be the fastest on the day.
    I have had a search for a video with a JD Biturbo doing 4.1s 0-60 could you post a link to it.
    Can't believe you wouldn't stump up £35 for a rolling road run. Hardly a lot of money, and you would have shown them that they were wrong and that you can get 450bhp+ from a BiTurbo.
     
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  30. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Ambient temps at the moment are not enough ? Where Brazil or Birmingham ? Define the range of what’s hot and not hot enough to influence the combustion effect in a Diesel engine. Describe and show the reference point online link for this ? When you are measuring in .000 of a sec it’s all going to affect

    Time to test drive yes. . Enghlitend observation . Don’t be surprised. Last summer I had the whole time off. . I’m
    not always working all the time just have been since Sept. And with any luck and a good wind behind me I’ll retire this coming November with enough investement to keep me for the next 50 years of my life if I’m lucky to live that long.
     
  31. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Stumping up £35 is not what it was all about after my experience and treatment. It was taking the **** by them and there isa thing called self respect that trumps everything. Re read the post in case you fail to understand.

    Ive never heard of JD engineering doing any video ?? ? Eh what are you talking about ?

    Here's a screen shot of JD's response after i sent them the times earlier in the week not a hint of incredulity or bitterness or name calling that .. .. . cough ive seen from another . . . . " its impossible you can be faster than us !! Infact they seemed quite pleased. See below:
     
  32. xJay1337

    xJay1337 New Member

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    Yes, schools often give their pupils the summer off.

    For someone so data driven you are awfully shy to provide any meaningful data from your own car to substantiate your claims.

    You are a clown.
     
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  34. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Why don’t you spend your time adding positively to threads instead of personally insulting people. If your angry fair enough but learn to channel that effectively instead of letting yourself down and breaking the forums by personally attacking people.
     
  35. xJay1337

    xJay1337 New Member

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    Rules you break also include spamming and trolling.

    I'm not angry. I've been asking for data points for a while now :) which you don't provide. Cos you don't know what you're talking about. As I said you got a dyno print and think you're god almighty.

    Lots of positive additions by you over the last few weeks anyway...!

    Also if you are as smart, rich and well educated as you make out I doubt you would make basic grammatical errors like your/you're .

    I think you are a troll hence why I refer to you as a clown.
     
  36. Gazwould

    Gazwould Well-Known Member

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    +1 ,
    £35/40 and a Dyno Dynamics sorts it , Surrey Rolling Road in Farnborough , Hants too far for a globe trotter ?

    Or single turbo Bobby goes to JD Engineering and makes the 1000Nm !
     
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  37. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Trolling my own post. Ironic. Anyway move on mate. Your not adding anything of value. Cheers.
    Why don’t you spend your time adding positively to threads instead of personally insulting people. If yor angry cLm you
     
  38. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    Gaz move on. Your not adding anything of value. Thanks
     
  39. xJay1337

    xJay1337 New Member

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    Why are you such a single turbo hater?

    Don't you know I got a dyno saying 72619bhp and 987161nm ? With 50 degree C intake temps.

    I did it on Jupiter. I'm an international businessman too.
     
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  40. The Black Panther

    The Black Panther Adventurer !

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    This is an 0-60 time for BITDI post. Move on mate your embarrassing yourself. Thanks
     
  41. xJay1337

    xJay1337 New Member

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    I'm able to embarrass myself.
    I retired when I was 21. Made a fortune on Cryptocurrency. They call me Mr dot com. Now I travel the solar system looking for the next challenge .

    I have a quad turbo. Does 0-60 in 1.4s and 0-100 in 2.2s.
     
  42. Sandra

    Sandra Administrator Staff Member Administrator TeamMisano TFSI Owners Group Audi S3 quattro Platinum Supporter S tronic Audi Main Dealer

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    Enough. No trolling, no having a go at one another. It stops now or I will close the thread down. Understand this, I will not tolerate it, Keep on topic or be prepared for me to sort it once and for all.
     
  43. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Thanks Sandra. I asked about where the 0-60 in 4.1 seconds came from. Was it just a comment on a forum or another one of those app 0-60 runs.
    Of course the man at JD Engineering isn't going to say a 3.9s is impossible or very unlikely. Especially in the pouring rain. People posting claims like that on forums will probably only bring him more business. Regardless of how accurate they are.
    Had a look on you tube for bitdi 1/4 mile runs as some people must have done them.
    Found this one 13.1 seconds at 170km/h which is 105mph and a 2 second 60Ft time.

    Clearly this car has no DPF as it's putting out smoke.
    Posted at the same time by the same user this one.

    450bhp 950Nm DPF off,egr off,700x400 intercooler, intake mods and K&N filter aggressive remap, light rims and tyres, minimum fuel probably the same spec that he ran the quarter in.
    I ran a 13.1 quarter at 109mph in mine and my car doesn't have launch control and it doesn't have an auto box so my gear changes aren't as quick. It's also only 380bhp and 750Nm.
    http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/karls-3-0-tdi-build-thread.204785/page-13#post-2778256

    A genuine 450bhp car will easily be in the low 12's as Bobby showed at GTI International.
    On that run from the logs the 0-60 was 4.2s. On a 1/4 mile track with loads of sticky rubber down he only clocked 4.2s.
    And you manged 3.9s in the pouring rain LOL.

    http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/bobby-singh-a4-3-0-tdi-build-thread.248899/page-6#post-2777778
     

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