BBT hybrid with New Badger5 high flow k04 exhaust manifold first tests look promising

badger5 said:
when you change hardware mods, I would always suggest custom map to make benefit from improved hardware.
It would help, but I would not expect by much.

I would be putting my ££ on other mods first to improve flow, cooling etc... intake, downpipe, fmic... then the slippery slope takes hold :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the answer Bill, much appreciated.
 
One thing that needs to be answered with these small turbos is whether inlet manifold upgrades will yield anything.
Obv at 350+hp they're moving a fair amount of air, so the answer is probably.

Put tufftys mani on there while he paints something, please. No one has ever experimented with that on one of these yet
 
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These manifolds are all about trying to get the gasses out fast and free flowing as thats the main restriction on these engines

BB has done a good job with his hybrids and now Bill has added to it but there will be a limit to what these can flow and adding a inlet it may only have a small gain
 
superkarl said:
One thing that needs to be answered with these small turbos is whether inlet manifold upgrades will yield anything.
Obv at 350+hp they're moving a fair amount of air, so the answer is probably.

Put tufftys mani on there while he paints something, please. No one has ever experimented with that on one of these yet
Click to expand...

It won't fit the Lupo dude... the std mani only just goes in, my runners and large plenum make the mani stick out too far for it sadly...

<tuffty/>
 
superkarl said:
One thing that needs to be answered with these small turbos is whether inlet manifold upgrades will yield anything.
Obv at 350+hp they're moving a fair amount of air, so the answer is probably.

Put tufftys mani on there while he paints something, please. No one has ever experimented with that on one of these yet
Click to expand...

I've got a bigger inlet manifold on mine, along with some of Andrews headwork. Should find out in the next month if its been beneficial or not :jump:
 
superkarl said:
One thing that needs to be answered with these small turbos is whether inlet manifold upgrades will yield anything.
Obv at 350+hp they're moving a fair amount of air, so the answer is probably.

Put tufftys mani on there while he paints something, please. No one has ever experimented with that on one of these yet
Click to expand...

we have done said test some while back...
on this output you loose as much as you gain.. intake is'nt the problem at this level
 
Well this all looks very good,
So it looks like my new map will have to wait until i have this manifold and any other supporting mods,
 
badger5 said:
stock 023 position doug.. in the turbo
Click to expand...

Actually, I raised the question before I understood the turbo's configuration. At first I'd thought it was a k16-series compressor teamed to a K04 turbine rotor. But now I understand it's the other way around.

Interesting design exercise, I have to say. What airflows are you running? Can you replace the EGT probe with a pressure sensor? It'd be instructive to see how the back-pressures are for a given airflow. As you know, we've seen pressures as high as 70psi in the "ChinaFold" when running exhaust from 280g/s airflow.

F23_ChinaFold_back-pressures_EGTs_93oct.jpg



Granted, the back-pressures were partly owing to the unconventional 2.0L "FrankenStroker" design (which sucked), but it was enough impetus for us to re-think the turbine rotor for slightly increased flow.

 
Didn't you experience exhaust gas reversion at one point Doug? Due to the back pressures?
And had to upgrade valve springs accordingly.
what manifold was that on?
 
slappy_dunbar said:
Actually, I raised the question before I understood the turbo's configuration. At first I'd thought it was a k16-series compressor teamed to a K04 turbine rotor. But now I understand it's the other way around.

Interesting design exercise, I have to say. What airflows are you running? Can you replace the EGT probe with a pressure sensor? It'd be instructive to see how the back-pressures are for a given airflow. As you know, we've seen pressures as high as 70psi in the "ChinaFold" when running exhaust from 280g/s airflow.

F23_ChinaFold_back-pressures_EGTs_93oct.jpg



Granted, the back-pressures were partly owing to the unconventional 2.0L "FrankenStroker" design (which sucked), but it was enough impetus for us to re-think the turbine rotor for slightly increased flow.
Click to expand...

what turbine you gone with then?

Ive got a 1/2 clipped turbine I'm testing at present.. I don't like clipping but I'm hoping / thinking that as this turbine was designed for the tfsi I'm doing that it might help with back pressures some what..
 
as an aside the exducer on the k16 turbine measures larger than the gtx2867 I have here.. lol

I will see what I can do re back pressure testing.. MrsB for now has it back so I am leaving it alone.. so she can actually drive her car again after many many months..
 
badger5 said:
as an aside the exducer on the k16 turbine measures larger than the gtx2867 I have here.. lol
Click to expand...

GTX 2867 turbine rotor is 53.9/47
K16 rotors are typically 55/49, whether used in a diesel truck or in the TTRS.

badger5 said:
I will see what I can do re back pressure testing.. MrsB for now has it back so I am leaving it alone.. so she can actually drive her car again after many many months..
Click to expand...

Make sure to use a braided line as a stand-off from the exhaust housing, else you'll melt the MAP sensor.
 
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slappy_dunbar said:
GTX 2867 turbine rotor is 53.9/47
K16 rotors are typically 55/49, whether used in a diesel truck or in the TTRS.



Make sure to use a braided line as a stand-off from the exhaust housing, else you'll melt the MAP sensor.
Click to expand...


You are correct Doug, but this one is the 5015/5028 46mm exducer one. The 49mm one with the associated extra clearance I run wouldn't fit.. Leaves the edging too thin and almost breaks through to waste gate..

Still a k16..
 
beachbuggy said:
You are correct Doug, but this one is the 5015/5028 46mm exducer one. The 49mm one with the associated extra clearance I run wouldn't fit.. Leaves the edging too thin and almost breaks through to waste gate..
Still a k16..
Click to expand...

Well you probably know me well enough by now to reckon that I pooh-pooh a design that shifts power so far rightwards in the graph. But I'm glad to know you went with the smaller-exducer rotor variant. If I were to explore a K16-spec rotor, that's the one I'd choose as well. So now I'm surprised spool is so slow on the rotor you chose. Did you over-bore the turbine housing?
 
slappy_dunbar said:
Well you probably know me well enough by now to reckon that I pooh-pooh a design that shifts power so far rightwards in the graph. But I'm glad to know you went with the smaller-exducer rotor variant. If I were to explore a K16-spec rotor, that's the one I'd choose as well. So now I'm surprised spool is so slow on the rotor you chose. Did you over-bore the turbine housing?
Click to expand...

I think you'll find and I am sure Bill confirm it's the way it's mapped and not the spool speed.. I can confirm that even with over clearance it still spools perfectly well if you allow it..
 
slappy_dunbar said:
Well you probably know me well enough by now to reckon that I pooh-pooh a design that shifts power so far rightwards in the graph. But I'm glad to know you went with the smaller-exducer rotor variant. If I were to explore a K16-spec rotor, that's the one I'd choose as well. So now I'm surprised spool is so slow on the rotor you chose. Did you over-bore the turbine housing?
Click to expand...

This is'nt mapped to get spool asap and hard... it will surge.. and its also in a 970kg lupo with front wheel drive..
I have brought in the boost progressively, not pegged n75 100% to get it to spool asap.. I did'nt try that.. I might do on next opportunity to look see, but early onset would need to be lower boost to ride the surge line.. It spools on the road like a normal K04 hybrid, full chat spool at 3-3.5krpm..

boost onset on the 372bhp max run is below.. You will see from 3.5k I am holding it back to ride the edge of surge
1551590_489243047860452_1493980502_n.jpg
 
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Broken Byzan said:
looks like 28 frame turbos are a pointless exercise
Click to expand...

Really?
Small exhaust turbines with increased back pressure tend to surge like a $%*@$ at high boost.
Hence the need to reign then in with the EBC (N75 in this case) at lower RPM.
Thats why the Eliminator series of turbos never really took off, the turbine was just too small to flow like a real GT28.

In theory turbo's run most efficient just under the surge line threshold so its a compromise.

I do love the spirit of trying new combinations. The TFSI hybrids shuld be interesting!
 
antwan64og said:
Really?
Small exhaust turbines with increased back pressure tend to surge like a $%*@$ at high boost.
Hence the need to reign then in with the EBC (N75 in this case) at lower RPM.
Thats why the Eliminator series of turbos never really took off, the turbine was just too small to flow like a real GT28.

In theory turbo's run most efficient just under the surge line threshold so its a compromise.

I do love the spirit of trying new combinations. The TFSI hybrids shuld be interesting!
Click to expand...


GT28RS, 350bhp level turbo......

This is performing no less, and is k04 based so if the car was a k04 to start with, much of it is reusable.. oil,water lines, downpipe, 80mm TIP......

The exhaust turbine on this is'nt smaller discharge diameter than a GTX2867 I have here.. I measured.
 
I wonder how the turbine size on my TFSI unit compared to the various GT28 options? I think Dan said he was using the K16 turbine in the TFSI hybrids too so I'd assume it's larger.

All very interesting stuff and it's great that the game is still being moved on.
 
At least now the K04 1.8T hybrid can realise the potential of its compressor wheel like its bigger 2.0T TFSI bigger brother. This is a big step up and great to see the whp going past 320bhp too. I know i'll be shot for even thinking it but is 400 bhp that ridiculous a possibility.
 
400bhp.... lol..

get 372bhp and he wants more - lol

I have'nt fitted all the planned hardware tho... ;)
 
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badger5 said:
GT28RS, 350bhp level turbo......

This is performing no less, and is k04 based so if the car was a k04 to start with, much of it is reusable.. oil,water lines, downpipe, 80mm TIP......

The exhaust turbine on this is'nt smaller discharge diameter than a GTX2867 I have here.. I measured.
Click to expand...

the gt28rs has not only a smaller compressor but different turbine to a full size gt28 turbine?

Either way, these new hybrids are making gt2871/67 turbos in IWG forms prrrretty obselete
 
superkarl said:
the gt28rs has not only a smaller compressor but different turbine to a full size gt28 turbine?

Either way, these new hybrids are making gt2871/67 turbos in IWG forms prrrretty obselete
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was referring the actual manifold to turbo housing size.
Its what 41mm standard so thats 1320mm squared.
LOBA offer to port their Ko4 manifold to 44mm making it 1520mm squared.
a 4 bolt GT28 gasket is 52,9 x 40.3mm which is over 2000mm squared.

I thought this was the bottleneck, since we can already bolt big compressor housings up.

Regardless of that, I'd definately rock one of the new hybrids. Saves a ton of custom fabrication work!
 
You have ASSUMED this is std size.. It is not ;)

47mm Bore.. 1734^mm

This is just inlet to throat not A/R of course
 
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Im very interested in this route. For someone who cant diy, to be able to keep things simple for the machanic keeps costs down. You can do the tune in stages rather than pay out loads in one go.and a 310bhp s3 must fly!! When i had my first s3 in 06 people said hybrids would be pointless.the k04 is to small and gets hot.heres what can be done when people push boundries. Awesome work!!
 
Bill, sorry if I missed it but is the turbo mounting with this manifold far off stock?
i.e. Will an existing ko4 down pipe mate up and a standard 80 mm Ko4 TIP or will it require custom bits.
 
Nice results Bill! Fantastic work with the R&D as always.

quick question, what would you say is an average Transmission loss for FWD car?
 
antwan64og said:
Bill, sorry if I missed it but is the turbo mounting with this manifold far off stock?
i.e. Will an existing ko4 down pipe mate up and a standard 80 mm Ko4 TIP or will it require custom bits.
Click to expand...

stuff should bolt straight on. OE position.
std 80mm Badger5 TIP fits straight on.. no change.. its just a mainfold.
 
Prawn said:
Nope, I'm not. 352 is less than 353 where I did maths!
Click to expand...

Lol guys wonder what my car would make on this manifold as it stands my car is making 350bang on bhp at 1.4 bar on the Dino up North
 
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Only one way to find out.....

my personal thoughts are that without the added bore it's unlikely to make MORE power than a relentless, which are known to flow well.

the difference here is, this is well made, and will last the test of time. That's been the quest that until now has been impossible.
 
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