AUDI V BMW?

[bunny]

Well the A3 2.0 TDi SE Sportback is up for replacement - its been ok I suppose and has covered 115,000 miles with no faults. Initially I was gutted at the amount of road noise, engine noise and understeer, but you get used to that after a while. If you want to see how upset I was look at any post by Jungle... On the plus side it looked great (but its a bit "samey" now), has a classy interior and a decent stereo.

This time I get a little more money to "spend" - £25k this time.

Took an A4 S-Line 170 TDi for a drive (2 days as it was a courtesy car) and loved it; it was refined, had loads of grip, and personally I didn't find the ride too hard at all.
Then I took a 320D SE for a drive... unbelievable. It was so much quieter, steered so sweetly and handled amazingly. You really can appreciate the balance and RWD, even through town. The dash / interior looks awful from outside, but once inside the car it makes perfect sense.

Audi
Looks great
Drives well
Lovely interior

BMW
Looks odd (but I'm getting used to it)
Iffy interior (but better than it seems once you're driving)
Drives so much better than the Audi its untrue.

I know a lot of people won't notice the difference, and maybe its because I race motorbikes that I'm more sensitive to some elements of handling (?!) but I've ordered the BMW and can't wait.
Sure, I'll have to put up with the image problem, but when you do 60,000 miles a year, driving pleasure is more important than image etc.

If you have a new model A4 congratulations - its a nice car. But if you are considering a change, you should try the BMW. Some of you may wonder what I'm on about, but some of you will love it!

Cheers

J

 

[Randomjim]

3 series is out selling everything at the moment so it must be doing something right. Bit too popular though?

 

[bunny]

Absolutely - and if its predecessors are anything to go by it will be more common than a mondeo etc..

Trouble is that if you want an exclusive car these days, you have to buy something like an alfa that looks great but drives like a heap (chill bowfer)

I think its fair to say that for most classes of car these days, the most common is probably the best at that price level. For example, if the 3 series is the biggest seller in 2007 in the "compact exec" class, I would expect the A4 to be the second biggest seller, and so on.

 

[AndyMac]

I doubt A4 will be anywhere near 2nd best selling in the class, thank god.

 

[Vertigo1]

Would take an A4 over a 3 in a heartbeat but then I can't stand the interiors on modern Beemers.

 

[silver75]

I like the new 3 series coupe but the saloon looks wrong. I think the A4 is still playing catch up though, with only its looks, 4wd (if quattro) and the fact that its not a beemer its main strong points

 

[Amchlolor]

Trouble is that if you want an exclusive car these days, you have to buy something like an alfa that looks great but drives like a heap (chill bowfer)

Made me laugh,even if it is a pile of nonsense.
The 159 handles a damned sight better than the A4.
Have you driven them all ?
I have.
I agree that the 320 knocks the hell out of them both though.
BMW wins,Alfa next,Audi last.
Driven in isolation the Audi will seem fine.
Compared with the Alfa and the BMW,it's just so 'dead'.

The only £25K (ish) car floating my boat just now is the Alpina BMW D3.
It's around £26500.
Nothing in the Audi or Alfa range gets me drooling like it does.
If it drives as well as the 163bhp 320D M-sport I drove a few weeks ago,but puts out 200bhp in the process,it must be the most awesome compact executive diesel around,bar none.

I've never taken any notice of Merc and I can't see that changing.

Tragically,it's around anothr 16 months before I can think of one.
I couldn't give a stuff about the image problems people report,I really couldn't.
Taking notice of that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.
Could I give a stuff if someone thinks I'm a splitter as they go past ?
Not likely.
Unlikely they'll get past,if I have 200bhp...

;-)

 

[Steve-L]

BMW wins,Alfa next,Audi last.
Driven in isolation the Audi will seem fine.
Compared with the Alfa and the BMW,it's just so 'dead'.
;-)

Is this in general or just the standard A4, A3 etc etc ?
As I am sure on Top Gear Clarkson said the RS4 handles better than the M3 an I remember reading an article in Evo saying an Renault Clio outhandled the M6.

 

[marriedblonde]

Didn't clarskson say that audi may have a winner on their hands compared to the benchmark M3 - which has been with us for 6 years and a replacement is due in 2008? Hardly a fair comparison though is it!

I was very tempted with an A4 until I drove a 2.0Tdi Sline it was too staid and stodgy for me.

I love BMW's but have always had an issue with the image. I must be growning up as that no longers bothers me and I'm tmepted to go with one next. The difference in driving one cinared to my Audi is chalk and cheese the Beemer is so much more of a driver car.

J.

 

[Amchlolor]

Is this in general or just the standard A4, A3 etc etc ?
As I am sure on Top Gear Clarkson said the RS4 handles better than the M3 an I remember reading an article in Evo saying an Renault Clio outhandled the M6.

Not much point in me driving cars I can never hope to own,so I test drive cars within my price range.

So I am talking about the A3/A4,the BMW 320 and the Alfa 159.

More specifically,I am talking about the Audi A3/A4 2.0tdi,the BMW320D and the Alfa 159 1.9jtd.

In handling terms,the BMW wins.
In refinement terms,the BMW wins.
In engine terms,the BMW wins (Alfa's engine is close though)
In aesthetic terms,the Alfa wins (looks are in the eye of the beholder).

Sorry,but I cannot think of one single point where the Audi wins over the 159 and 320.

That will go down as an anti-Audi satement by me,but I swear it's not.
I've been racking my brains to try and find some way in which the Audi wins over the other two,but I cannot find one.

Oh,I may have found one.
Residuals will be be better on an Audi than an Alfa,no doubt.

I don't have to worry about residuals though.

 

[Steve-L]

I guess it depends on your circumstances when choosing a new car, whilst a "true drivers car" is a great plus I would say about 90% of my annual mileage is done too and from work which is in W London so you never get the opportunity to realise the cars handling potential. Others must also be in this boat so for some handling becomes less of a priority.

 

[Amchlolor]

I guess it depends on your circumstances when choosing a new car, whilst a "true drivers car" is a great plus I would say about 90% of my annual mileage is done too and from work which is in W London so you never get the opportunity to realise the cars handling potential. Others must also be in this boat so for some handling becomes less of a priority.

That is true.
My driving consists of scottish B roads,with next to zero chance of being caught for speeding,so handling at speed is right at the top of the list.
I can go months without seeing a motorway....

 

[marriedblonde]

Mines 50/50. My trip to the office is around 75-80 return. The first part of that journey is a mad b-road dash followed by a hop of 2025 miles n the M3.

So I want a bit of fun and a bit of refinement in my cars.

 

[Amchlolor]

My trip to the office is around 75-80 return.

I'm embarrassed to admit my commute is 3.5 miles each way...
My car then sits outside the office all day.
99% of my mileage is personal.
My car is the very definition of 'perk' !

 

[Steve-L]

My driving consists of scottish B roads,with next to zero chance of being caught for speeding,so handling at speed is right at the top of the list.
I can go months without seeing a motorway....

I'm jealous

I sometimes think that if we ever move to the countryside one of the main reasons would be good driving roads.
Not sure the wife would agree though.

 

[Amchlolor]

I'm jealous

I sometimes think that if we ever move to the countryside one of the main reasons would be good driving roads.
Not sure the wife would agree though.

Yeah,well,it works both ways really.
On one hand,I get to thrash the hell out of cars and bikes with little fear of being caught for speeding (I have a clean licence,and have had for 15 years now).
On the other hand,we're a bit 'stuck out on a limb',with a transport infrastructure that Poland would laugh at.
Two hours driving probably gets you boys to France.
Two hours driving gets me to a depressing hell-hole called Glasgow...

 

[Defratos]

Me mum has a BMW 3 series and I love the ride. It's sooo much more comfy than my S3 (probably cause it's not manual and doesn't have a load *** exhaust and springs, bushes etc...) if you're after driving comfort than I'm with you on the BMW.

You like the new 335? twin turbo 3L, 306bhp or 309 with healthy torque

 

[silver75]

I think the new 335 is faster than the current M3, expensive though.
If it wasnt for the image I'd take a BM in the flash as I love them, but living in London there are too many dodgy characters driving them.

 

[Amchlolor]

If it wasnt for the image I'd take a BM in the flash as I love them, but living in London there are too many dodgy characters driving them.

That's just silly,isn't it ?
Denying yourself a better car,that you confess you love,because of something like a perceived image ?
Who gives a stuff what other people think,if you're happy ?

I dunno,I just think taking 'second best' to keep other people happy is a bit sad and daft.

 

[john2garden]

I'd go for the 159 any day, it would have to be a year old of course so its took its major depreciation hit.

But I reckon getting a 2.4jtd say a year old you would save some decent wedge. Plus you would be getting one hell of a car. So far I have seen 4 on the road.

Just remembered you would have to put up with the awful dealers too.

Sometimes its better letting your heart run rather than your head.

 

[silver75]

That's just silly,isn't it ?
Denying yourself a better car,that you confess you love,because of something like a perceived image ?
Who gives a stuff what other people think,if you're happy ?

I dunno,I just think taking 'second best' to keep other people happy is a bit sad and daft.

I love audis too though so Im happy

 

[Amchlolor]

Just remembered you would have to put up with the awful dealers too.

Sometimes its better letting your heart run rather than your head.

I've heard about these 'awful' Audi dealers,but the one I dealt with (Arnold Clark Fiat/Alfa in Aberdeen) was excellent with me.
My 156 was an import too,so I expected sniffy service,but I didn't get it.
They kept me up to date with recalls too (back suspension bushes) as well.
No probs at all.

Can Audi dealers claim to be any better ?

As far as I can remember,David Robinson is the only regular poster on here that reports he hasn't had any problems with his Audi dealer.

There have been several reports of Audi dealers DAMAGING cars in their care lately !

Again,I wouldn't let reports of bad dealers put me off a car.
I would hope to only visit them for servicing,after all.

 

[tinka]

i could'nt give a #### about image if i like a car then ill get it,and as you say the bmw is the best handling of any in its sector,and some above,and the fact its common means nothing when the residuals are only just behind audi,
and the m sport just adds a bit more exclusivity for me.

 

[roadrunner]

Marque v Marque I’d take Audi any day. For me BMW has about as much charm as a Mondeo, little more in the way of class and IME a whole lot less in the way of reliability.

 

[d3fy]

i could'nt give a #### about <snip>

Thats the spirit mate, BMW attitude through and through 'i could'nt give a #### about cutting him up as I have a BMW!'

 

[AndyMac]

"That's just silly,isn't it ?
Denying yourself a better car,that you confess you love,because of something like a perceived image ?
Who gives a stuff what other people think,if you're happy ?"
No not at all, it's not a perceived image, it IS the image, BM's are driven by *******, I'm surprised they don't use that as their tagline on their adverts.
Choosing a car is not just about the hardware, it's everything to do with the car and how it makes you feel. If the car makes you feel like a ****** then it's hardly gonna make you happy is it?
If Skoda produced their version of an RS4 for £15k I still wouldn't have one, because I'd be driving a Skoda. This is clearly badge snobbery, but with BMW it's almost reverse badge snobbery. BMW used to be a prestige brand that people aspired to. Unfortunately so many upwardly mobile ******* bought them that it devalued the brand, a bit like Burberry. Now a BM is just the Cavalier of the millenium. The fact it's a much better car is irrelevant, a Mondeo is a good car but no one cares, it's a Mondeo!
Also the handling's not too hot in the wet either, Beemer corner in Southampton is testiment to that. If there's a car in the ditch at Beemer corner it's always a BM.

 

[co55ie]

why cant anyone ever see past German cars when choosing ?

 

[tinka]

Thats the spirit mate, BMW attitude through and through 'i could'nt give a #### about cutting him up as I have a BMW!'

hey, i dont cut people up,and im not up my own backside,how can you tar every one with the same brush,i hav'nt even got the car yet,
if the bmw has out sold the mondeo then you are going to get the odd driver that drives that way,simply because there are more of them,
its like me saying to you because you have an audi that you like confrontation or sarcasm because of your reply,but i dont know you so i cant realy judge you by the comments you make on a forum,and visa versa.ive had fords,vauxhalls,vw,audi etc,now its time to change.

ps im known for my bitting at work and that bait was too good to refuse,so no offence,regarding the bite,but do you see my point.

 

[AndyMac]

Just a taste of what to expect from everyone on the planet who doesn't drive a BM. My god if you react that badly to a bit of friendly banter it's gonna be hell when you get the car.

 

[tinka]

tounge in cheek,just saying not every one is the same.

 

[d3fy]

lol

 

[dummi]

Is this in general or just the standard A4, A3 etc etc ?
As I am sure on Top Gear Clarkson said the RS4 handles better than the M3 an I remember reading an article in Evo saying an Renault Clio outhandled the M6.

rumour is b8 a4 will be better handling using a reverse engine so audi will finally have the engine behind the front wheels FINALLY

 

[tinka]

lol

are we friends

 

[marriedblonde]

Thats the second comment you have made regarding BM's handling. I can only assume your making your comments from experience of the old E30.

Modern beemers handle and for those wet days they have good TCS (not so hot in the dry where you need to partly disable it if your nipping on)

J.

 

[AndyMac]

No just basic limitations of RWD and drivers who panic when it oversteers. Great on a track but not so hot for the average driver on a greasy road. You're not honestly gonna argue RWD over Quattro surely.

 

[dmaudi]

this is my first audi and second 4wd sports car previous one being a integrale evo 16V, and I've had 16 3 series of all types from an e21 323 to an e90 330d,

oh and I had most of them before they were for onoists

frankly the handling on my 3.2 is safe but garbage, its not a true 4wd car

( red rag to some on here I'm sure )

and in almost every coindition right up until the rear breaks away it is a front wheel drive car with a heavy front end, and understeers like a hippo on rollerskates.

The only time the audi 4wd works is puling away but only IMO because the car is so badly balanced, a BMW especially an e90 is so well balanced the lack of 4wd is really no loss,


I agree rwd is best for good drivers but the e90 and previous versions from the e36 onwards have been super safe in almost any conditions, BMW know that frankly the majority of its customers buy their cars for image rather than the peerless dynamics and like Ford that doesn't stop them putting great chassis dynamics in them.

I am now getting more dissalusioned by the day and am slowly heading back to the BMW range to find a true drivers car.

I am trying a a4 2.0T quattro touring next week for a few days in an attempt to stay with the four rings (cos I do like the image and quality) but the driving winds me up,


I'm with you bowfer, that D3 seems sensational, just waiting a trade in valuation on mine before getting too excited mmmmmmmmmalpina (had a c2.7 e30)


NEVER dismiss a decent car because of what other sort of people drive them, why should we lose out on quality and ability, there's a similar article in this month's car about this very topic.

sorry I've rambled a bit

 

[marriedblonde]

No just basic limitations of RWD and drivers who panic when it oversteers. Great on a track but not so hot for the average driver on a greasy road. You're not honestly gonna argue RWD over Quattro surely.

From your comment I immediatley know your talking about old models of BMW so I suppose the argument is in your favour. something like an E30 325 sport in the wet along a greasy road is an accident waiting to happen.

Had you have been talking about any of the later BM's you would know that you can get the back out with the traction control engaged by a few degrees and that is it - end of fun!

If your talking haldex quattro then I would argue that to the same kind of driver who panics with oversteer it is about as much use. As you know it is basically a front wheel drive car that will understeer, so your bombing it down some wet greasy lane and you hit a corner and you experience understeer, so you let your foot off the gas and the next thing you know the rear of the cars gone light and your in a hedge.

All the above is from covering a lot of miles in both makes of cars. I can't comment regarding the a4 quattro system as I have only covered several hundred miles in a couple of S4's - the V8 ones. From that limited time I quickyl realised that the car's are set up to understeer so I can only assume that right on the limit it would be a similar sitaution to the above. Understeer lift off oversteer....

To the average driver quattro is brilliant for quick get aways, traffic light grand prix or ripping out of a T junctions, spot a gap and boot it keeping your foot in.

4WD is only only 4WD when you jeep your foot planted.

So which one is better? Horses for courses i would say. If you live up north where there is more snow than Quattro would be agreat help. If you like to race all the chavs away from the lights then compared to FWD again it will be a bonus.

J.

 

[AndyMac]

Sorry talking about proper Quattro not the part time Haldex ******, so to assume it would behave the same is a bit of a leap. Can't comment on the newer BM's, the ones I see in the ditch are either older models or the idiots behind the wheel don't know how to switch the TCS back on.

 

[marriedblonde]

If you read my post I didn't say it beheved the same way as in baically a front driver until grip is lost, what I actually said was they are set up to understeer and in a similar situation i.e. bombing down a wet greasy lane the driver would do the same. encounter understeer which would make them panic lift of the gas whic would cause lift off over steer.

Like I said above quattro/4wd is only of any use when you keep the power on.

Brand loyalty is one thing...

 

[AndyMac]

Ummm so basically you're saying RWD is as good if not better than 4WD in a corner from a safety point of view. Sorry but that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
What you actually said was:
"4WD is only 4WD when you keep your foot planted" referring to the Haldex system that only engages the rears when it senses the fronts losing grip. This is obviously not the same as non-Haldex Quattros, so they would not behave in the same manner in the same situation. The proper quattro wouldn't understeer as much in the first place so there would be no panic and no resultant off road experience. If you're really pushing it to the limits then you might be right, but I'm talking about normal driving in slippy conditions with an average driver behind the wheel i.e. 99% of driving in this country.
The BM is far more likely to catch people out than a quattro.