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Audi S3 (2015 6 speed) APR Remap

Jon75_S3 Apr 17, 2020

  1. Jon75_S3

    Jon75_S3 Registered User

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    Hi

    I've been researching Stage 1 remaps for my S3 and almost certainly going to plump for an APR. I've made some enquiries with my closest APR specialist (Retro Resus in Bridgwater) and received the following:

    The standard car will cope with either the high torque or low torque maps without any other modifications. However, we always recommend the stage 1 gearbox software to go with this, as the extra clamping force on the clutch packs prevents slipping/clutch damage, and the shift point will better suited to the engine after the remap. It is advised, but not essential.

    The stage 1 ecu remap is £634+vat, and the gearbox map is £554+vat. If you were to have both together we can offer a 10% discount on these prices.

    Obviously I'd prefer to pay less and go for just the engine tune, but concerned this may prove to be a false economy if it wears other components faster. Does anyone have any experience of the APR upgrade with just the stage 1 ecu remap? If so, what's your thoughts?

    Cheers
     
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  3. RS03_SEN

    RS03_SEN Registered User

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    If you're down south I'd go with dmsautomotive. No one gets the numbers they get.

    Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk
     
  4. RO65ERS

    RO65ERS Registered User

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    You’re saying 6 speed, so I’m assuming you have a manual.
    The gearbox map is for the s tronic not manual, how ever you will need to budget for a clutch replacement!

    awesome gti do the temps and an upgraded clutch for only £1600 - that’s an excellent price imo!

    you could try the low torque map, but then what’s the point in getting it mapped ?!
     
  5. reefer110

    reefer110 Registered User

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    Is it a PFL car? Don't they have 6-speed s-tronic boxes

     
  6. Jon75_S3

    Jon75_S3 Registered User

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    Yes, it's the pre facelift 6 speed s-tronic.

    I want some extra grunt, but chasing every BHP isn't my main focus. I want a tuner that is relatively local (I'm South Devon) with a good reputation for Audi Tuning. Celtic Tuning and Revo were the other 2 that popped up on my radar, but APR ticks the most boxes for me and seem to get a lot of favourable reviews on the forums.

    Just wondered if anyone on here had had the APR stage 1 remap and not bothered with the gearbox remap?
     
  7. Damo S

    Damo S Registered User

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    btw. I would advise fitting a performance panel air filter (about 40 quid) and removing the snow grate from the airbox to help it breath better. Or even one step further and do the OEM intake mod (no extra cost, just requires a bit of taking apart and cutting plastic in the duct which feeds the airbox). It will make a difference at the top end.
     
  8. Mr Freeze

    Mr Freeze Registered User

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    I had a APR stage 1 on my golf R and didn't get the gearbox remapped had no issues at all . APR is where I would be going if I tuned my S3 in the future
     
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  9. RO65ERS

    RO65ERS Registered User

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    I’m Plymouth!
    I’m going to be going to awesome gti to get my clutch and apr map!
     
  10. Leevr

    Leevr Registered User

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    If your in plymouth you could try retro resus Bridgewater or a bit further where I went Turner race developments Gloucester. Two brothers Dan and Jamie. Top guys really know their stuff. Found retro hard to get hold of.
     
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  11. Jon75_S3

    Jon75_S3 Registered User

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    Cheers, that's helpful to know. That's probably what I'll go for when we are eventually out of the lockdown.
     
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  13. Jon75_S3

    Jon75_S3 Registered User

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    Cheers. Retro Resus is who I'm going with and is where the original information came from. I'll post my experience once it's all complete.
     
  14. Damo S

    Damo S Registered User

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    and order yourself that panel filter ;-)
     
  15. GSB

    GSB Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    Snow Grate?
     
  16. JM13

    JM13 Audi S3-Honda NSX

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    I have a FL S3, started off with the APR ECU map. Loved it... few months later went back for the gearbox remap, loved it even more!!!! I wouldn't trust anyone but APR with VAG cars, they really are worth their money.

    PS The price you are getting for both is very reasonable!! YOU WONT REGRET IT!
     
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  17. Marky-s3

    Marky-s3 Registered User

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    Can't go wrong with apr
    I had a golf r stage 1 hi tourqe and didn't get the gearbox map and I had slip so went straight back and got it that same box as urs
    I went stage 1 and 2 with the s3 facelift with 7 speed Apr hi tourqe with no slip on box running 404 bhp and 424 bhp
    Now running stage 3 and got box done
    Worth getting turbo elbow I'd recommend the turbo technics intake pipe it's future proof
     
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  18. Jon75_S3

    Jon75_S3 Registered User

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    I'll make sure to look into it! ;)
     
  19. Jon75_S3

    Jon75_S3 Registered User

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    Ahh, okay. It sounds as though it makes a noticeable difference to performance as well from what JM13 is saying? I'd rather get it all done in one trip so looks like both remaps are the way forward.

    I'm not sure if I'll move to stage 2 at the moment. This will be the first car I've ever modded so still a little apprehensive about it. If I did start looking at satge 2, what's the basic mods you'd recommend?
     
  20. Damo S

    Damo S Registered User

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    yes. sits in the bottom of the airbox under the filter. It resembles a cattle grid but with smaller holes for the air to get through.
     
  21. Damo S

    Damo S Registered User

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    Yes that too. Its 200 quid though. That and the OEM intake mod is what I have. Breathes much better and gives you some nice sounding induction noises.
     
  22. Damo S

    Damo S Registered User

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    It completely transforms the car. You'll see :)

    Stage 1 is the biggest bang for buck for sure. Stage 2 requirements depend on the tuner. Revo for example specify full intake, full exhaust, sports cat and optionally an uprated intercooler., Only after that lot will they install their stage 2 map.

    Other places are happy to tune the car to whatever mods you have. I had my stage 2 tune done at MRC with: intake (oem mod plus turbo technics inlet pipe), revo Front mounted intercooler, racing spark plugs, and the custom remap done on tesco 99 fuel.

    Ive left the exhaust side completely standard because I dont want any more noise. Its loud enough as it is (after the remap the exhaust note is louder and deeper anyway). Consequently, because of the stock exhaust back pressure my remap isnt running as much boost as it could. With a full exhaust and sports cat I could see another 20 to 30 bhp, However, that's a lot of money for around a 7.5% gain since its already making around 400. When you compare that with my first round which gave a 33% gain. I don't feel its cost effective.
    I'm also happier that its not ragging the life out of the turbo given its current state of tune. But believe me its plenty fast enough, although one can never have too much power.
     
  23. GSB

    GSB Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    Ah, that thing. That’s probably best left where it is if you like your turbocharger...
     
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  24. Damo S

    Damo S Registered User

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    The air filter is the main protection from junk in the incoming charge. That grate does nothing other than restrict the airflow. What you really dont want is little bits of grit getting into the turbo as that will destroy the impeller blades, for exmaple if you had no air filter or there is a split in the airbox to turbo inlet pipe (I've seen the latter happen before, along with the resulting damage to the turbo).
    Induction kits don't have snow grates.
     
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  25. GSB

    GSB Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    Thats the statement that should ring the alarm bells.

    Why would VAG fit an intake restrictor, which will increase pumping losses, fuel use and emissions? It makes no sense. Why would VAG spend billions on emissions compliance and testing, fitting particulate filters, undergoing testing and certification, paying billions in reputational costs and fines, when all they had to do was rip out that bit of plastic?

    They wouldn’t. So, it must do something, otherwise why on earth would VAG go to the trouble and vast expense of designing it, validating and testing that design, refining that design, tooling it, manufacturing it and fitting it, when they could instead save themselves a couple of million Euros and add a couple of Euros extra profit to each car sold...

    Safer to assume it’s there for a reason, and given the expenditure and effort involved, it’s probably a very very good reason.




    Perhaps it’s the popular name ‘Snow Grate” that gives people this sense of its disposability, but it’s probably wrong. Look at it, it’d be about as effective in snow as a pair of roller skates.

    What I believe it is, based on experience on using almost exactly the same designs in other much larger engine air intakes, is a coalescer.


    To know how important that is you need to understand how it works and what it prevents.

    When it rains (and in this country it rains about 160 days of the year) your air intake system sucks that rain in. It can’t help it, it’s inhaling air for combustion and the rainwater is entrained in that air. Depending upon the weather conditions it also sucks in road spray, mist, and fog. All of them are made up of water droplets, just in different sizes. As the air carrying this water in all it’s forms goes through your intake it has to go through the ‘Snow Grate’, which is in fact a very simple and very effective aerodynamic device that causes the airstream to suddenly change direction and speed. In doing so the velocity and pressure change makes the water being carried in the air drop out. It then collects into larger, heavier droplets and falls into the bottom of the filter box where it is drained away.

    This simple device is staggeringly effective at removing moisture, some of them are as near as makes no odds 100% effective. It’s a stunningly simple and effective piece of aero engineering that means that even on very wet days very little moisture reaches the filter media. Open up the filter box after a wet drive and you’ll find the filter element is dry.

    Good job really, as wet filters are very bad for five very good reasons...

    The first reason is that getting the filter wet increases it’s delta P dramatically, increasing its resistance to airflow to value far higher than the ‘Snow Grate’ could ever achieve, thus negating the very reason you removed it in the first place.

    Reason 2 is that the water will dissolve all the soluble contaminants already trapped in the filter and then carry those contaminants through to the engine. An engine I manage used have a cola factory next door, and before we fitted water management to the intake you could see rivers of cola residue on the clean side of the intake manifold. It stank of sugar syrup.

    Reason 3. The increased airflow resistance of a sodden filter means that the difference in pressure across the filter could conceivably rupture it, leading to you having no filtration at all (best case), or with your engine inhaling bits of filter media, which is not good...

    Reason 4. A wet filter, with a decent airflow going through it and sufficiently low temperatures (any lower than about 7 deg C will do) can and will freeze. At this point it takes on the airflow characteristics of a pane of glass, accelerating the onset of reason 3, but adding the exciting proposition of your engine inhaling lumps of ice into the mix.

    Reason 5 though is the biggie. The final nail in the coffin. A wet filter will ultimately pass all that water through to the engine. The filter is a porous membrane so it cant hold back the tide. It will take that fine mist from the air, collect it, and then let it go into the clean side of your air intake in nice large droplets. The effect of water droplets hitting fast moving metal is much the same as the effect of fast moving water hitting stationary metal. Watch a water cutting jet carve through 6 inch thick steel like a knife through butter and you get an impression of the destructive capability of H2O.

    The first piece of fast moving metal the water in your intake gets to is the compressor wheel of your turbocharger. A tiny vaned wheel revolving at somewhere around 150,000 to 200,000 rpm when your foot is hard down, so each of those little compressor blades will have a tip speed somewhere around 300 metres/sec, or about 700 mph. Water hitting aluminium at 700mph isn’t good. In fact, water hitting any metal at 700mph isn’t good, and as anyone whose ever picked upstream water injection for charge cooling instead of a decent inter cooler will tell you, it’s very very destructive.

    7E40910F-4319-479C-9AA3-794962715E91.jpeg
     
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  26. T-1000

    T-1000 Registered User

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    I enjoyed reading that, damn good explanation GSB. Hats off and respect to you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  27. Damo S

    Damo S Registered User

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    So what you are saying is that all aftermarket induction kits that have no "snow grate" will lead to destruction of your turbo.
    Based on what you are saying, every car should be fitted with one. None of my previous (20 odd) cars have ever had one. many of them also turbo charged.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  28. GSB

    GSB Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    No, that’s what I’m saying. In fact I didn’t mention aftermarket kits at all. I’m saying that I think it’s there to remove water, because I’ve used exactly the same aero trick for exactly that purpose on a larger scale. I could have gone for air intake silencer, except that it looks like it would make a terrible silencer and a silencer has absolutely no need of an air box that integrates a sloping floor and a drain port at the lowest point. The designers even spent an extra few thousand designing the specially curved drain hose and orifice fitting to take water away from it. To me everything about it says water separation, so to call it a snow grate feels about as accurate as calling it a cow catcher or a lobster pot.

    I’m also saying that just because we don’t at first understand the objective or purpose of a given component, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a purpose. You can take it as read that there’s not a single component on the car that isn’t there for a good reason, automakers are masters at minimising costs for maximising profits. Every single component that goes in has a price tag, and every cent not spent on bits of plastic that most owners don’t even know is there is a extra cent that can go onto the profit margin. In general, a part is there because it needs to be.

    You have to bear in mind comparisons are made difficult as there are usually many ways to achieve the same goal. So, when solving the water into turbo conundrum, maker A might choose to use a lesser intake with a turbocharger compressor wheel made of something suitably resilient. Manufacturer B might decide its’s more cost effective to install a turbo with lower quality and cheaper rotating parts and then prevent its premature failure with a water trap. Both may well last the same amount of time.

    So, sometimes it’s good to simply ask ‘why?’, rather than believing established wisdom or jumping to erroneous conclusions like “My old cars ‘v’, ‘w’, ‘x’ and ‘y’ didn’t have that part, so new car ‘z’ clearly doesn’t need it” That argument doesn’t hold water for me, if you’ll forgive the admittedly awful pun.
     
  29. Marky-s3

    Marky-s3 Registered User

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    Rip it out you think diffrent from others and never seen anyone report any turbine issues with water lol
    My eventuri sucking in air to feed 525bhp direct from the grill would be much more susceptible to water from the oem intake utter nonsense imho
     
  30. GSB

    GSB Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    Yes, it would.
     
  31. Damo S

    Damo S Registered User

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    "lobster pot" lols. That did make me laugh

    I don't believe for one second that a manufacture would suggest making a turbo cheaper and possibly save it by using a bit of plastic. Anyone who has ever done the OEM intake mod or fitted an induction kit will be open to the same water issue as me I guess. That includes owners of the RS3 where, I believe, the bit of plastic "snow grate, lobster pot, whatever" is not included in the airbox.
     
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  32. Marky-s3

    Marky-s3 Registered User

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    Yup its amazing my eventuri has thought about water and put a 10mm hole in the bottom to let water out
    Just like oem with the drain tube
    Its called a snow grate think about that for a min snow ain't water.
     
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  34. GSB

    GSB Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    I’d love to agree with you, but that would mean my being surprised they spend the euros on a bit of plastic here where the buyer can’t see it, but didn’t spend anything on an equivalent bit of plastic in the front grill to protect the air conditioning condenser.

    Despite our love for cars we have to remember this is an industry that has morals lower than a snakes dangly bits. They are ruthlessly efficient at balancing the conflicting demands of cost, profit, customer demands and expectations, competition, reputation, cost, and profit. Cost and profit feature heavily in that list, ethics sadly do not. This has led to poor decisions, errors, poor designs, an inability to admit it when they get it wrong and on occasion total criminality tantamount to manslaughter.

    In comparison to some of their more deplorable efforts to save a few pence then saving say €10 per unit on a turbocharger at the expense of fitting a €1 piece of plastic would qualify as sound financial sense and good planning. It’s $9 per car extra profit... Car companies will do and have done a hell of a lot more questionable things for mere fractions of that money. Manufacturers wanting to fit cheaper parts to do the same job is normal, established practise.

    From pics it looks like the stock RS3 / TTRS has a mist eliminator pad on the disposable filter element. Slightly different methodology, but it’s a water removal system all the same.


    You’d think with it being a German car it’d have a Germanic name, like Scheerost, or Schutzvorrichtung für Schneeräumfilter. Certainly being German it’d have a very literal name, such as Wassertropfenfalle, or Scheißentferner. I don’t think the term ‘snow grate’ features heavily in the local dialect.

    As for snow ain’t water? I thought about it as requested, and wondered for some time if in fact you were being serious. On balance I rather think you were, in which case you may need to refresh your memory since your knowledge of the basic phases of water taught in elementary science lessons seems to have gone the way of your ability to use basic punctuation. If snow isn’t water, what exactly is it?
     
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  35. Damo S

    Damo S Registered User

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    Depends if its yellow?
     
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  36. GSB

    GSB Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    Hmm. Good point.
     
  37. Marky-s3

    Marky-s3 Registered User

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    Well snow is made of water ha ha
     
  38. danboy66

    danboy66 Registered User

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    did you get your car tuned by Retro Resus ?

    Tom is fantastic hes built a few cars up for me over the years i will be taking my S3 to him shortly for an APR stage 1 and i was thinking the same thing will i need the gearbox done at the same time

    Dan..
     
  39. steve111b

    steve111b Registered User

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    In Canada during the winter, road crews dump brine onto the roads to melt the snow. When I opened up the air box to inspect the air filter I discovered salt deposits on the floor of the box. How the salt came to be there was a mystery to me. I never expected to be able to figure out what is going on. Then I read your explanation GSB. I bow to your magic.

    When I purchased a new air filter for my RS3 I asked the dealer parts guy what is with this media filter (furnace filter)? It looked like it was stuck to the air filter for shipping purposes, never seen this before. The RS3 has no snow grate.

    There is still one bizarre thing that I cannot understand. On rural highways, road crews dump sand to control ice. Bits of that sand ended up on the outside of the duct work for the air box. Some of this sand was also around the edges of the air box, but the bizarre thing is that nothing else under the bonnet has this coating of sand bits. Today I saw a video review for an RS3 and that car had the same debris around the air box. Getting rid of that debris is a chore because of all the indentations of the plastic housing. Like me, I suspect the dealer could not be bothered to clean around the air box.

    This winter I drove for two hours on rural highways and decided to check for debris on the outside of the duct work and air box.
    The front of the car was completely covered in brown muck (snow and sand). I found no debris under the bonnet.

    Thank you GSB for your lengthy explanation of the inner workings of the lowly air box.
     
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