Audi Centre Dispute

[tiggerthefox]

Seeking forum members' advice on what is now "an irresistible force meets immoveable object" dispute I am currently engaged in with the supplying Audi Centre of my current vehicle, acquired new on a silly lockdown deal on a car in stock within the franchise operator's wider network back in the summer.

The supplying Audi Centre is NOT my regular Centre, being located in a completely different part of the UK to me. It is part of a different franchise to my own Centre's dealer group, with which I have had a perfectly amenable relationship over what is nearly two decades of Audi ownership.

I already know that franchised Audi Centres are distinct and different to Audi UK; Audi UK being the importer and the Centres being independently run retail operations. There is, in that sense, no umbilical cord between the two and my contract is with the retailer, not the importer or manufacturer.

Without going into major details here, some cosmetic defects were identified on the the vehicle, all caused by prior adverse human interaction with the car, one of which is potentially a safety issue, within the first few weeks of my ownership. Despite meeting with the Centre's senior staff (a woeful waste of time and effort), the submission and rejection of numerous letters of complaint under the banner of the Consumer Rights Act, 2015 after consulting with Citizens Advice, and recent reference of my extensive case file to Audi UK Customer Services, the situation is at deadlock.

I have no intention of rejecting the vehicle and I have recently modified my demands in an effort to be seen as reasonable. I was offering a negotiated settlement but the Centre has chosen not to match that effort or modify its original position. I have now received the Centre's "final position" letter.

I am fully aware that under the Consumer Rights Act, I now have the option of issuing a "letter before action", essentially giving the Centre notice that unless it responds positively, I can escalate this to legal action by way of the Small Claims Court. To replace or repair the affected areas runs into thousands, not hundreds, of pounds. And while you might incredulously ask, "why didn't you notice this?", it is simply because two of the three areas are minor in size, not easy to spot but are very expensive to rectify. The third and most serious issue only manifests itself in certain lighting conditions. Two are external, one is internal.

While my legal entitlement is valid, I have pulled back from the brink of triggering this action as this is clearly a "last resort" and there is the "risk v reward" conundrum to weigh up. Covid-19 restrictions on daily life also don't help when triggering court action.

Accordingly, I am now putting my case in the hands of The Motor Ombudsman under an ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) and have been issued with a case file reference. TMO has been very upfront about the length of time, due to Covid-19, this may take to investigate and rule on....possibly SIX months. And then there is no guarantee of a win. I do not have to accept TMO's ruling as in doing so it will be binding. This then leaves the option of the Small Claims Court to seek redress, but by then the vehicle will be approaching a year old.

That's the preamble; now the request...

Has anyone been in serious dispute with an Audi Centre and found it difficult or impossible to get a result? If so, what did you do next?

Audi UK's Customer Service case managers are essentially toothless; they have no power to dictate to Centres what they should do to rectify customer issues and Audi UK, by extension, seems not to police the Centres, leaving them to self-regulate. There appears to be no accountability to the importer and I am left with the view that the Centre I'm in dispute with has merely closed ranks with the support of it dealer group HQ, frustrating me at every opportunity in the hope that I'll lose interest and drop my complaint.

TMO has confirmed I won't damage my position with them if I choose in parallel to write to Audi UK HQ, attention of Andrew Doyle (UK Director), as TMO would always prefer a settlement to be reached by agreement rather than by one being imposed.

An Audi Centre unconnected with either me or the dispute has suggested that writing to Andrew Doyle would be a useful thing to do, if for no other reason than to bring to his attention the unacceptable actions of an accredited Centre with restorative action hopefully to follow. I'm further advised, anecdotally, that such intervention has happened in the past and the offending outlet told in no uncertain terms to "sort it."

No evidence of that, obviously.

I have even, briefly, considered writing to BBC Watchdog.

Has anyone had experience of Audi UK HQ getting involved in such disputes and forcing a resolution? I'm approaching this from a "tried everything, got nowhere" position, while talking about "brand and reputational" damage caused by the dogma and intractability of a Centre that was happy to take my hard-earned cash a few months ago.

Any suggestions or examples of bad experiences resolved gratefully received.

Thanks.

 

[NHN]

Bit hard to take an opinion & advise when you're not telling us what the issues actually are, hypothetically of course.....

 

[tiggerthefox]

Thanks @NHN

Deliberately vague as to the precise nature of these issues because of the current status of my complaint, but suffice to say they are cosmetic, not mechanical, electrical, or anything materially prejudicial to the vehicle integrity other than a potential "clear vision" safety issue. It is also why I am not naming names.

However, it is not unreasonable to expect such cosmetic defects would not be present on a new vehicle, as opposed to perhaps buying the same vehicle after a period of time being used as a demonstrator. But then a demo vehicle's presentational status would be reflected in the price paid. These are not manufacturing defects which would be warranty-related. They are human intervention defects, basically poor handling of the vehicle, commencing at PDI / decontamination stage and then through more than minimal use in the ensuing four months - what I consider excessive miles on the clock of a new, unregistered vehicle accrued across at least two Audi Centres in the same dealer group before it passed into my possession at a third Centre.

The basic thrust of the post was that:
1. I've identified cosmetic damage to the vehicle (new, remember) retrospectively after purchase.
2. The supplying Centre isn't interested in dealing with it, despite drawing senior Centre management and dealer group HQ staff attention to the Consumer Rights Act.
3. Multiple attempts to engage with the Centre and parent group HQ to actively deal with the issue have failed, as prompted by Citizens Advice and under my rights in law.
4. Audi UK's customer service 0800 699 888 channel is ineffective.
5. That leaves me with various options: (a) drop it and pay for the repairs / replacements myself (b) seek ADR (c) seek Audi UK HQ Exec Team support (reputational and brand damage prevention) (d) go legal.
6. (A) is not an option (B&C) can be implemented in parallel (D) is last resort.

The questions posed here were to establish whether any other Audi owner had found themselves in an intractable dispute with an Audi Centre, such Centres seemingly being beyond Audi UK HQ regulation, and how, if at all, progress to resolving the complaint, whatever the nature of it, was dealt with.

I'm really looking for any evidence of consumers actually getting Audi HQ to listen and to react in the interests of the customer when presented with a complaint that an independent franchised retailer of Audi goods and services is failing to address. In essence, does Audi UK care about what its appointed retailers get up to, is it willing to step in when the situation is likely to damage the wider brand and will I even get a reply?

 

[Pinky1959]

I would be writing to the CEO and not messing my words about the situation and what I expected as a solution .
Is it bad enough for rejection ?

 

[tiggerthefox]

Thanks @Pinky1959

I have a history of tackling Chief Executives’ offices of corporates with some success. Ultimately, this bear does not react well to being poked and I am in it for the long haul.

I have followed due process throughout, regularly updating Citizens Advice from the outset. While the option to go “letter before action” was at Tier 3 of my complaint process, I elected to position myself as the flexible, reasonable one. I have dropped the most ‘minor’ part of my complaint in an effort to bring the other side to the table. But the other side is solidly intransigent.

Positioning myself as reasonable, as the aggrieved party, when the other side is non-cooperative, may well be seen by arbitrators as a positive for me.

Fundamentally, the Audi Centre, under the Consumer Rights Act, 2015, must prove that the defects I have complained about were NOT present at the point of sale provided my complaint commenced within six months of concluding my purchase. It is not down to the consumer to prove that the defects WERE present.

The Audi Centre, like a politician, has not answered this direct question at all. Through its dealer group HQ, I have been presented with ‘opinion’, not evidence. ‘Opinion’ that suggests with the passage of time and accrued mileage since purchase (just five weeks, a mere pawful of vehicle movements and around 500 mls) at the point I complained that I must be responsible.

Yet, by its own admission, the other party cannot account for the significant double-digit mileage accrued on this brand new, unregistered vehicle in the four months it spent in the dealer group’s possession. Four months and significant double-digit mileage that nobody can say why this vehicle was driven, where it was driven, when it was driven or who drove this vehicle. This in the period end Feb to end June 2020...the majority of which was covered by lockdown. This vehicle has been through at least two Audi Centres before being acquired by the supplying Centre via internal transfer as a replacement for the original RS4 Vorsprung I was intending to purchase from the Centre’s own stock before it was sold to someone else four days after I’d repeatedly asked the sales guy to confirm his emailed final price on an official quotation which would’ve resulted in my deposit. That was at the end of a fourteen day long negotiation to start with.

Suffice to say, my relationship with this Centre, an organisation I never expected to have to talk to again post-purchase, was not the best at any stage.

The bottom line is I bought a new, unregistered vehicle with a vague recent history, in the not unreasonable expectation that it should be free of defect or imperfection. Which it isn’t.

And that is the crux of the matter.

No...the defects are not in themselves a strong enough draw for me to reject the vehicle, and I would be shooting myself in both feet in doing so just to prove a point and score a Pyrrhic victory, but they are expensive to put right. And on a brand new vehicle, using the “reasonable man” argument, the customer should not have to accept the retailer’s dismissal of the complaint or pay up to correct the issues. Especially when the Consumer Rights Act provides a level of protection.

This will boil down to whether Audi UK values its reputation versus the cavalier approach of an independent retailer of its products, riding roughshod over the consumer. That is what escalating this to Mr Doyle will reveal.

And it has still only covered 1,500 mls...nearly five months after purchase.

 

[SaraS3]

If you weren't happy with it, why not just reject it and start again? I collected a 69 reg a4 avant with 5k miles on, on the 10th November, very quick handover due to the restrictions. I got it home and had a better look around it, told them I wasn't happy with deep worse than scratches on the alu console trim and a couple of other things and they told me to take it back the day after. 400 miles in two days and it will take a while to get the years tax from dvla( had to write a letter) but why would you bother dragging it out? I took their a4 back, collected my bmw x2 and the cash refund I had paid plus the x2 was back in my account in a week. That wasn't an audi dealer but it was straightforward.
Searched again and bought a 20 reg a4 avant closer to home at an audi dealer.
I did have to involve audi uk in 2019 when I rejected an s3 hatch, 2k miles, lots of paintwork issues but I found them excellent at dealing with the dealer and sorting the rejection.
On that occasion I emailed Andrew Doyle and almost immediately had a response from a lady named Rosetta who dealt with this straight away. They were excellent.
I wouldn't want the stress of looking at a car I wasn't happy with

 

[Simon]

if the deal you got for the car still isn't a better deal if you pay for the cosmetic repairs yourself is it sill a better deal than rejecting and starting again?

For the record Audi UK barely care at all about their reputation, if they did their dealership network wouldn't be as poor as it is. In 15-20 years of owning Audis I think I have had one good dealer experience. Even when trying to buy a brand new R8 I got so frustrated by the process I ended up walking away.

 

[tiggerthefox]

@SaraS3 @Simon
I have considered the reject option, a number of times. I have only recently had the dealer's 'final position' letter. However, the, frankly, crazy cash price I paid for the car, net of my trade in after the first lockdown was lifted, is unlikely to be anywhere near repeated and there are areas of further consequential loss to recover - detailing and Tracker installation costs that are considerable. This was an RS4 Vorsprung at very silly money compared to list, or even any 'normal' discount in pre-pandemic times. Bluntly, the dealer had stock to shift and we both knew it.

I'm reluctant to throw good money after bad to prove a point and disadvantage myself financially afterwards. The cost of repairs are more advantageous to me than the rejection and resourcing option, with probable delay in supply / Brexit to consider. I also fundamentally think the car is magnificent.

I contacted Andrew Doyle around 10 days ago with copy to executive.team@audi.co.uk. This resulted in a same day negative response from his office on the basis that Audi UK is the importer and the dealer is an independently run franchise. Nothing I didn't already know. I wrote back referencing brand and reputational damage implications but there has been no further response. I didn't expect one, so on that basis I am not disappointed.

In contacting both the dealer for the third official time and repeating my position to Audi UK, I'd already confirmed I was removing one of the three areas I'd complained about as this is the most minor and I'm having some additional detailing work done to the vehicle soon. This area will be captured as a relatively small cost element of the overall price of the job, which in itself is not significant (sub £400). This positions me as 'reasonable' in terms of making every effort with the dealer and the importer in trying to find a solution, without success. I'm not backing down on the other two areas.

While legally, Audi UK is correct to refer me to the dealer, morally I find it less so. The antics of the supplying dealer and by extension, the dealer's group HQ, are reprehensible, although my 18-yr relationship with my local centre is first class. My centre has been supportive throughout, even filming a short video of evidence of my key complaint for me.

Having spoken to Citizens Advice again to update the complaint, their impartial advice on rejection remains in line with the provisions of the Consumer Rights Act, 2015....which I have already detailed at length to both the supplying dealer and its parent company. I have now put the complaint into the hands of The Motor Ombudsman, along with an extensive case file of supporting documents on the basis of Alternative Dispute Resolution. We'll see what happens next.

I'm not obliged to accept TMO's eventual ruling, whereas the dealer is.

If this goes to the Small Claims Court, then so be it.

 

[Simon]

Just goes to show how little Audi care about their customers, even of their Halo cars.

don’t feel too bad though Nissan treat their GTR buyers even worse.

 

[Mo-S3]

I think sometimes all it takes is the small claims court papers to land on their doorstep to finalise things. They probably think you wont go that far and you are full of hot air.
Courts usually dont look favourably on large companies screwing over the average man, but it does depend on what side the judge got kicked out of bed at

 

[AlS3BE]

@tiggerthefox
Have you got finance on the car? If you have it might be worth contacting them and raising a complaint as they have a vested interest in the car.
I recently had a Friday afternoon car and spent a year dealing with the dealer/Land Rover uk. In the end I spoke with the finance company and it took them a week to investigate and sided with me. I got pretty much all my money back and they took the car back.

 

[toooldforboyracing]

Did you get anywhere with this? Curious how it panned out where the dealer knows you are far away, and they can effectively ignore you

 

[NHN]

I still believe its prudent to advise us what exactly is the issue & pics, so we can see whats happened.

 

[tiggerthefox]

@tiggerthefox
Have you got finance on the car? If you have it might be worth contacting them and raising a complaint as they have a vested interest in the car.
I recently had a Friday afternoon car and spent a year dealing with the dealer/Land Rover uk. In the end I spoke with the finance company and it took them a week to investigate and sided with me. I got pretty much all my money back and they took the car back.

No, outright cash + PX purchase.
Case remains unresolved.

 

[tiggerthefox]

Did you get anywhere with this? Curious how it panned out where the dealer knows you are far away, and they can effectively ignore you

Not yet. The dealer has been utterly scandalous over this and after sending a very detailed case file to Audi UK (Andre Doyle's direct Exec-level CS team responding), the importer is equally uninterested, as legally (and understandably) my dispute is with an independent retailer, not the manufacturer or the importer.
Arguments about brand and reputation damage fell on deaf ears.
The case is now with The Motor Ombudsman, so all direct contact with the supplying Audi Centre has ceased The same exhaustive case file was deposited with TMO at the end of November 2020 and I was told it would be at least SIX MONTHS before I would hear anything.
That time is about up.

 

[AlS3BE]

I don’t think Audi Uk or dealers care very much.
I was at the dealership getting some warranty work done and they were telling me they can’t sell cars fast enough. Due to COVID and no one spending any money on holidays they are all spending their money on nice things like cars. The manager said they were shifting between 10-15 cars a day and factory orders are months away so any stock, new or used, they have on hand is selling like hot cakes.

 

[tiggerthefox]

I still believe its prudent to advise us what exactly is the issue & pics, so we can see whats happened.

No pictures as two of the three issues require certain bright/sunny weather conditions to be visible. There are numerous circular and fine clustered scratch marks on the INSIDE of the windscreen, all about the size of a small egg. They're only visible in direct sunlight or under a detailing studio's lighting (which is where they were first noticed). The majority of them are closely packed together, more or less in the dead-ahead driver's eyeline above the HUD. They're consistent with excessive force, in my view, to remove transit sticker adhesives or labels applied at the factory prior to shipping.
The vehicle was manufactured Jan 2020 and was taken through PDI at the dealer group's HQ at the end of February. The vehicle was at some point between then and me acquiring it assigned to another Audi Centre in the franchise owner's stable, where it was visible in June 2020 via the Autotrader website, with numerous photographs available (all of which I have downloaded). None display the damage I refer to above and below in this response.
The vehicle I WAS going to buy via the Audi Centre I purchased from was not this vehicle. I'd seen an identical RS4 Vorsrung, albeit in a different paint finish, and after haggling with the Centre, I waited for a third and final official quotation that would have triggered my deposit. I'd got the price on an email, but an official quotation, on letterhead and with an official, traceable quote number was required. I'd had two of these already, so was fully expecting (and had asked for) this confirmation.
It never came and the car was sold to another person, presumably local and presumably for more money.
To the Centre's credit, they offered to try to source a replacement, to which I agreed on the proviso that (a) my PX was honoured (b) the previously unconfimed price was honoured.
This is where the car I have on my driveway comes in. I told the supplying Centre that I'd take the unregistered car I'd seen on Autotrader in the sister dealership if it was still available. Identical spec, other than colour. The deal was done, monies paid, registration number chosen, vehicle insured, collection date agreed.
The car was trailered to the supplying Centre the day before I was due to collect it. I picked the car up on a soaking wet, grey and overcast Saturday morning in early July, four days after the deal was completed. The weather conditions were to subsequently become an important aspect of my complaint. The vehicle was outside, wet through, but looked absolutely spanking. Delighted, I drove it home, a couple of hundred miles, in the grey and miserable rain. However, for a brand new, unregistered vehicle, it already had 76 miles on the clock on collection. Interesting.
It then sat on my driveway for days on end. It was booked in to a detailing studio for early August for a full ceramic treatment. A Tracker engineer was at my address ELEVEN days after after I acquired the vehicle and drew my attention to a scuff mark underneath the driver's door on the piano black cill trim before he started work. It looked innocuous enough and as it was going to the detailer I was sure it would polish out.
Fast forward to two days at the detailer in August and on collection the car looked magnificent. Except for the now clearly visible windscreen marks AND a chip on one of the alloy wheels, hitherto unnoticed. The detailer also pointed out the scuff on the cill trim, which impressed me as I hadn't mentioned it to him on handover as I wanted to see how honest/thorough he would be.
Remember, I'd barely touched the vehicle beyond driving it home on collection day, door-to-door without stopping. And it had already done 76 unaccountable miles. By whom? Under what conditions? Unaccompanied test drives post-lockdown? How many times had it been washed since February? The dealer group HQ subsequently confirmed that no vehicle movement records were kept to support the registered mileage.
Raising the complaint with the franchise HQ was initially optimistic. A can-do attitude was in the air, and a meeting with the supplying Centre's Head of Business was arranged at another group Centre not a million miles from my home location so the vehicle could be looked at.
It was at that point that the atmosphere changed. There was no movement towards, no acknowledgement, no solution. Just a dismissive, "you-must-have-done-this, or-if-you-didn't-your-detailer-must-have" response. The guy, and his sidekick, refused to take the vehicle under cover, under lighting, so the windscreen damage would be visible. It was also a less than sunny day. Heck, they even refused to sit behind the wheel! The drawbridge slammed shut and has remained so ever since.
I'm having some PPF work done soon and the cill trim will be done as part of this procedure. I have offered to exclude this defect from my complaint as part of seeking a compromise with the Centre. Not interested.
A replacement, OEM screen, fitted and ADAS calibrated is the thick end of £1,300 as is a replacement alloy.
Hence why we are where we are.
I'm chasing TMO next week and if necessary, I'll see the Audi Centre in the Small Claims Court. They've ignored the conditions of the Consumer Rights Act under which I have complained.

 

[tiggerthefox]

I don’t think Audi Uk or dealers care very much.
I was at the dealership getting some warranty work done and they were telling me they can’t sell cars fast enough. Due to COVID and no one spending any money on holidays they are all spending their money on nice things like cars. The manager said they were shifting between 10-15 cars a day and factory orders are months away so any stock, new or used, they have on hand is selling like hot cakes.

No, they don't.
The customer is a means to an end in a lot of cases. We're just piles of cash sitting (virtually or otherwise) in front of them.
For balance, my local Audi Centre, with which I have had a near two decade long relationship, is a breath of fresh air and they have consistently tried to be supportive, without getting involved directly.

 

[AlS3BE]

I’m not trying to say who’s right or wrong here but just my comments and how I read your and others posts. So please don’t take offence.

Mileage
I would say that’s pretty high for pdi and checks before delivery. Most likely the car was driven from one dealership to the other rather than on trailer. Maybe google map the distance between the dealer and see if it close.
Had 4 new audis and mostly hovers around 20-30miles when I collect. Cars do get driven around the docks and on to ships etc so some mileage is expected but I would say that’s pretty high.
Also find it odd that your car was outside on collection. All mine has been indoors in a kinda delivery room/area so regardless the weather I could see the car in all it’s glory in the dry. That’s the same across other dealerships and different brands like merc and bmw.

Windscreen marks.
How bad is the circles on the windscreen?
I’ve had 2 previous audis and both had 2 perfect circle marks near the centre of the screen and most likely caused by suckers used in the factory to move the glass around. Both times the dealer had to used a detailer/windows tint guy to polish it and I never had issues any after that. I only noticed it when the windows started misting up and there was 2 identical circles appearing and sometimes in really bright sunshine.
Maybe see if a detailer can polish it out.

Alloys
Chips on alloys happens and I’ve found Audi alloys are bad for it especially diamond cut alloys. One of my first audis didn’t have diamond cut alloys and after 60ks still looked brand new whereas my current diamond cut alloys has a few chips all over.
This will be difficult to prove who caused it as our roads are terrible.

Sill trim/side skirt
The scratch is mostly cause by folk getting in and out of the car. I have a couple from kids and the wife’s heels but they aren’t that bad and polishes out but that’s on painted skirts not piano black. Piano black is a pain as they scratch so easily and there’s only so much polishing can be done as it’s plastic.
Again this is difficult to prove who’s big feet/shoes caused it.
Might have been the dealer washing with dirty sponge. Yesterday I saw the car cleaning guy at the dealer cleaning all the cars outside with the same dirty sponge/bucket then hose them down.

Again these are just my opinions so hope there’s no offence. Just thought I point it out before chucking good money after bad through the courts and TMO etc
Maybe come to a compromise with the dealer and get them to pay for the ppf. Just a thought.

 

[tiggerthefox]

I’m not trying to say who’s right or wrong here but just my comments and how I read your and others posts. So please don’t take offence.

Mileage
I would say that’s pretty high for pdi and checks before delivery. Most likely the car was driven from one dealership to the other rather than on trailer. Maybe google map the distance between the dealer and see if it close.
Had 4 new audis and mostly hovers around 20-30miles when I collect. Cars do get driven around the docks and on to ships etc so some mileage is expected but I would say that’s pretty high.
Also find it odd that your car was outside on collection. All mine has been indoors in a kinda delivery room/area so regardless the weather I could see the car in all it’s glory in the dry. That’s the same across other dealerships and different brands like merc and bmw.

Windscreen marks.
How bad is the circles on the windscreen?
I’ve had 2 previous audis and both had 2 perfect circle marks near the centre of the screen and most likely caused by suckers used in the factory to move the glass around. Both times the dealer had to used a detailer/windows tint guy to polish it and I never had issues any after that. I only noticed it when the windows started misting up and there was 2 identical circles appearing and sometimes in really bright sunshine.
Maybe see if a detailer can polish it out.

Alloys
Chips on alloys happens and I’ve found Audi alloys are bad for it especially diamond cut alloys. One of my first audis didn’t have diamond cut alloys and after 60ks still looked brand new whereas my current diamond cut alloys has a few chips all over.
This will be difficult to prove who caused it as our roads are terrible.

Sill trim/side skirt
The scratch is mostly cause by folk getting in and out of the car. I have a couple from kids and the wife’s heels but they aren’t that bad and polishes out but that’s on painted skirts not piano black. Piano black is a pain as they scratch so easily and there’s only so much polishing can be done as it’s plastic.
Again this is difficult to prove who’s big feet/shoes caused it.
Might have been the dealer washing with dirty sponge. Yesterday I saw the car cleaning guy at the dealer cleaning all the cars outside with the same dirty sponge/bucket then hose them down.

Again these are just my opinions so hope there’s no offence. Just thought I point it out before chucking good money after bad through the courts and TMO etc
Maybe come to a compromise with the dealer and get them to pay for the ppf. Just a thought.

Hi, @AlS3BE
Appreciate your comments and all taken with good grace.
1. Mileage and collection:
Centre A to Centre B is a lot further than the recorded mileage and I have no reason to doubt the car was trailered the afternoon before collection. I suspect that this car had test drive activity either side of the first lockdown and was moved from the Audi Centre site (where it went through PDI) to the next Centre from where it was transferred to the Centre I acquired it from. All within the same franchise group. Plenty of opportunity to accrue some miles during the four months between PDI and purchase, regardless of lockdown status.
The car was outside on collection due to lockdown, social distancing and other Covid-19 restrictions. The handover bay was off limits. Just going through the handover was difficult enough.
2. Windscreen marks:
These are not the marks that appear when the outside temperature is different to the cabin temperature and the glass steams up to reveal those circular marks caused by the vacuum grabbers deployed at the factory when installing the screen on the production line. These are permanent surface, fine line rotational scratches in the glass. Likely caused by inappropriate operator contact to remove adhesives or labels during PDI or perhaps during subsequent valeting . They remind me of what happens to a stainless steel saucepan when cleaned with an abrasive pad. Mostly in a confined area of the glass and only really visible in specific lighting conditions. On a grey, wet day they are not noticeable....just as collection day was and today is in my corner of the planet.
The detailer will not attempt to polish out as this could cause milkiness in the glass surface and/or further damage and then he is liable. I have to say, I agree with him.
3. Alloy:
Understand and I appreciate this is difficult to prove one way or the other. The detailer did advise that it appeared a repair attempt had already been made. A second opinion seemed to back that up at a professional wheel refurbishment specialist, along with comments such as 'you should see how many cars come in here direct from dealers BEFORE they're sold.'
4. Cill trim:
Another one of those 50/50 blame arguments. And I'd already offered a compromise to remove this issue from my complaint, based on some (still delayed) planned PPF work to areas of the car. But I contend the rather vague history in the four months between PDI and purchase, with the vehicle being moved internally and with 70-odd miles on it has a balance of probability, particularly as I barely used the car after purchase (furlough/working from home) until it went to the detailer.
Just how many backsides have slid on and off the driver's seat prior to mine without care?
The Motor Ombudsman costs the consumer nothing and I'm not obliged to accept any ruling TMO hands down. But the Centre is obliged to.
I had to smile at the suggestion that I might get the Centre to compromise and pay for the PPF, but frankly, I couldn't get the price of a cup of coffee out of the Head of Business. He is a closed book. Completely intransigent. End of.
It hasn't put me off Audi...this is my third in a row over a number of years. But there are bad apples and they need outing. I'm a big fan of the brand and I still...issues aside...get a shiver of anticipation every time I start the RS4 up. She's a beauty. Nearly eleven months on, she's still only got 2.8K on the clock. That's the pandemic for you.

 

[AlS3BE]

Hi, @AlS3BE
Appreciate your comments and all taken with good grace.
1. Mileage and collection:
Centre A to Centre B is a lot further than the recorded mileage and I have no reason to doubt the car was trailered the afternoon before collection. I suspect that this car had test drive activity either side of the first lockdown and was moved from the Audi Centre site (where it went through PDI) to the next Centre from where it was transferred to the Centre I acquired it from. All within the same franchise group. Plenty of opportunity to accrue some miles during the four months between PDI and purchase, regardless of lockdown status.
The car was outside on collection due to lockdown, social distancing and other Covid-19 restrictions. The handover bay was off limits. Just going through the handover was difficult enough.
2. Windscreen marks:
These are not the marks that appear when the outside temperature is different to the cabin temperature and the glass steams up to reveal those circular marks caused by the vacuum grabbers deployed at the factory when installing the screen on the production line. These are permanent surface, fine line rotational scratches in the glass. Likely caused by inappropriate operator contact to remove adhesives or labels during PDI or perhaps during subsequent valeting . They remind me of what happens to a stainless steel saucepan when cleaned with an abrasive pad. Mostly in a confined area of the glass and only really visible in specific lighting conditions. On a grey, wet day they are not noticeable....just as collection day was and today is in my corner of the planet.
The detailer will not attempt to polish out as this could cause milkiness in the glass surface and/or further damage and then he is liable. I have to say, I agree with him.
3. Alloy:
Understand and I appreciate this is difficult to prove one way or the other. The detailer did advise that it appeared a repair attempt had already been made. A second opinion seemed to back that up at a professional wheel refurbishment specialist, along with comments such as 'you should see how many cars come in here direct from dealers BEFORE they're sold.'
4. Cill trim:
Another one of those 50/50 blame arguments. And I'd already offered a compromise to remove this issue from my complaint, based on some (still delayed) planned PPF work to areas of the car. But I contend the rather vague history in the four months between PDI and purchase, with the vehicle being moved internally and with 70-odd miles on it has a balance of probability, particularly as I barely used the car after purchase (furlough/working from home) until it went to the detailer.
Just how many backsides have slid on and off the driver's seat prior to mine without care?
The Motor Ombudsman costs the consumer nothing and I'm not obliged to accept any ruling TMO hands down. But the Centre is obliged to.
I had to smile at the suggestion that I might get the Centre to compromise and pay for the PPF, but frankly, I couldn't get the price of a cup of coffee out of the Head of Business. He is a closed book. Completely intransigent. End of.
It hasn't put me off Audi...this is my third in a row over a number of years. But there are bad apples and they need outing. I'm a big fan of the brand and I still...issues aside...get a shiver of anticipation every time I start the RS4 up. She's a beauty. Nearly eleven months on, she's still only got 2.8K on the clock. That's the pandemic for you.

It’s a tough one. For folk like us cars are more than just a purchased object, we have a lot of emotion, passion around them and it’s our pride and joy. I’m surprised the TMO is free. Last time I contacted them about a car I rejected they wanted something like £150-200 for the investigation.

Glass is tough and will require a lot of pretty harsh polishing and equally to avoid milkiness will take a lot of work, not surprised your detailer didn’t want to touch it. Only last year Land Rover put a new windscreen in my wife’s car cause they didn’t think it was worth polishing. The screen was scratched cause the wiper arm/motor wasn’t fitted properly and the hard part of the wiper blade was putting fine,deep scratches across the whole drivers side. Still rejected the car after the gearbox then engine failure.
maybe accidentally put a brick through it and claim on insurance, £50-100 excess vs £1300. Only joking don’t think any of us could put a brick through our pride and joy. I just leave it to my kid, he cracked my wife’s windscreen on an old merc with a toy in his hand after she did an emergency stop. Surprisingly easy to break the windscreen from the inside. So now I have a no food, drink and toys policy in my cars.

If there’s been a smart repair or refurb on the alloys then they must have kerbed it during the first 70miles. No amount of driving in pdi should have damaged the alloys and if its diamond cut then it will get worse relatively quickly. Maybe that’s where the mysterious 70 miles came from. A drive to refurb place and back.

Sorry not much help. Hope you get what you want out of this. In the meantime go out for a drive, it will make you feel better.

 

[NHN]

I'm honestly a little bewildered by the concern over 76 miles on the clock tbh, I really wouldn't care & anything under 100kms dealer can usually zero with odis, although that may have changed now, but its not imho exactly an issue that would bother me, car has full warranty, what possibly is the issue with this that I'm missing that bothers you so much?

Screen, well I'd claim on my insurance one way or another as its not worth this hassle.

As for the alloy, for the sake of £100-£150 for a diamond cut repair, lepsons or the like can make it perfect again.

As for the sill trim, how bad is this?

I'm not seeing issues that would warrant such a situation as this, I suspect backs on either side have gone up & the doors have been shut.

In all, these issues are easily resolved & if you're looking at this from a purist pov that new car should equal perfection & zero miles, I think you need to adjust a little tbh, thats not to say the dealer isnt at fault for there CS, but all this time wasted on these issues, I just dont get it, for the the cost of fixing them, I'd be enjoying the car all that time & let the annoyances of issues resolved dissipate.

 

[tiggerthefox]

@NHN you clearly have different standards to me, then.
I have already said that the scuffing on the trim panel has been extracted from the complaint and will be dealt with externally at the detailing studio as part of a wider PPF installation.
They alloy wheel is laser engraved with the Audi Sport logo and any repair (I have investigated this with specialist repairers already) would compromise this.
A replacement wheel is in the region of £1,300 and a replacement OEM screen, calibrated for the various ADAS systems is similar money.
Why should I let the dealer off the hook? This is damage at source, and therefore not a warranty issue. It also isn’t about whether I can afford to fund repairs/replacements out of my own pocket (I can), but it is about holding the dealer to account under the terms of the Consumer Rights Act. If the Dealer Principal had displayed a shred of decency and provided a solution that in the scheme of things would have had virtually zero impact on him, then it wouldn’t have got this far.
But thanks for your opinion.

 

[Simon]

Tbh I think you are being a bit Karen about all this. You said you got a great deal, just enjoy it and move on.

 

[tiggerthefox]

@Simon of course, you’re so right. Thanks for your contribution.

 

[tiggerthefox]

Oh, and @Simon you might want to think about your choice of term to describe me in response to the issue I was sensibly debating last November and only revisited over this weekend as another contributor chose to comment. I regard the inference as offensive, irrelevant, belittling and about as wide of the mark as it is possible to be.
You don’t know me; you know nothing about me; you make a value judgement based on what you have read here; you haven’t read the case file or taken the free professional advice I have. But you have chosen to make a disparaging comment that is going to get you reported under house rules.
So what if I got a ‘great deal?’ A deal is only a deal if both parties derive a benefit from the transaction. The dealer has ridden roughshod over a genuine complaint and I’m not prepared to let it slide. It is not a ‘great deal’ if I give away a chunk of my negotiated discount paying for retrospective repairs because I, what? Give up? Let the big guy win without a fight? You may choose to ignore such issues and that’s your right. But it is not the cloth I am cut from.

What exactly is a 'Karen' and where did the meme come from? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-53588201

 

[Sandra]

Tbh I think you are being a bit Karen about all this. You said you got a great deal, just enjoy it and move on.

That remark is borderline tbh I don’t know what point your trying to make. Tiggerthefox may have got a good deal on the car, but if it has issues he has the right to have that rectified

 

[Simon]

I expressed an opinion on a forum nothing more and I stand by it.

I think you have taken a genuine complaint and made such a fuss about it in such a way that nobody is interested in helping you resolve it. Furthermore looking at the way you have expressed yourself in this thread only reinforces that view. I hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction but I doubt anything short of complete replacement car will be enough for your “standards”

 

[Steve940]

I did read this thread last week,well about 80% of it..my two pence worth,stick to your guns.after spending what I'll assume was a small fortune and bargain or not,that car should be nothing short of perfect for you..a wheel.and windscreen damage should of been a quick apology and replaced...costs company a relatively small.amount and the customer should be more than happy...if I've missed any details gents.. sue me lol

 

[tiggerthefox]

@Steve940 Thanks, Steve.
Nail. Head. Hit.
Yup, it was a small fortune of cold, hard cash, regardless of the deal I struck. Ironically, it was 12 months ago to this very day that I parted with the cash and I picked the car up four days later. In the wet, on a grey day, when it would be impossible to see anything that would later be revealed in brighter conditions. Missing wheel nut caps in varying quantities on all four wheels and a number plate that had been screwed on the tailgate rather than stuck on for clean lines, despite firm instructions and acknowledgement to the contrary, were clearly signs of a lack of attention to detail that was going to bite harder later on.
Was I expecting 100% perfection? No, as there are always minor imperfections. But equally, I wasn't expecting what I discovered after taking delivery of a brand new RS4, either.
You're right....it should have been a relatively painless exercise to have these faults rectified with the minimum of fuss and nothing more would have been said about it. However, the dealer's intransigence has forced this, not me. I'm reacting to having a genuine complaint being ignored, rebutted, counter-alleged and frustrated by a dealer clearly uninterested in customer service, brand and reputation damage or doing the right thing.
Am I...was I ever...going to demand a replacement car? No. Never on my agenda.
Do I want the faults rectified? Yes.
Do I love the car to bits and enjoy driving it every time I side behind the flat-bottomed wheel and press the starter? Damn right, I do.
Am I having the least worst of the issues dealt with privately and have advised the dealer of this? Yes.
But that is the action of a reasonable man in moving towards the middle ground in the not unreasonable expectation that the other party would make a similar move. It's called a compromise; a negotiation. After all, a deal is only a deal if both parties derive perceived or actual benefit from it.
Alas, it appears that the opposing party isn't reasonable at all. The cost to the dealer is trivial in both component cost and goodwill, versus the extortionate retail cost and simmering resentment to me.
Hence why it is now in the hands of The Motor Ombudsman.
Thanks for your support.

 

[AlS3BE]

@Steve940 Thanks, Steve.
Nail. Head. Hit.
Yup, it was a small fortune of cold, hard cash, regardless of the deal I struck. Ironically, it was 12 months ago to this very day that I parted with the cash and I picked the car up four days later. In the wet, on a grey day, when it would be impossible to see anything that would later be revealed in brighter conditions. Missing wheel nut caps in varying quantities on all four wheels and a number plate that had been screwed on the tailgate rather than stuck on for clean lines, despite firm instructions and acknowledgement to the contrary, were clearly signs of a lack of attention to detail that was going to bite harder later on.
Was I expecting 100% perfection? No, as there are always minor imperfections. But equally, I wasn't expecting what I discovered after taking delivery of a brand new RS4, either.
You're right....it should have been a relatively painless exercise to have these faults rectified with the minimum of fuss and nothing more would have been said about it. However, the dealer's intransigence has forced this, not me. I'm reacting to having a genuine complaint being ignored, rebutted, counter-alleged and frustrated by a dealer clearly uninterested in customer service, brand and reputation damage or doing the right thing.
Am I...was I ever...going to demand a replacement car? No. Never on my agenda.
Do I want the faults rectified? Yes.
Do I love the car to bits and enjoy driving it every time I side behind the flat-bottomed wheel and press the starter? Damn right, I do.
Am I having the least worst of the issues dealt with privately and have advised the dealer of this? Yes.
But that is the action of a reasonable man in moving towards the middle ground in the not unreasonable expectation that the other party would make a similar move. It's called a compromise; a negotiation. After all, a deal is only a deal if both parties derive perceived or actual benefit from it.
Alas, it appears that the opposing party isn't reasonable at all. The cost to the dealer is trivial in both component cost and goodwill, versus the extortionate retail cost and simmering resentment to me.
Hence why it is now in the hands of The Motor Ombudsman.
Thanks for your support.

Would totally agree with you. To be honest it wouldn’t matter if it was a £10k fiesta or a £70k Audi I would expect any issues in a new car rectified and quickly.
I kinda feel what you are going through, I recently rejected a car and would say Jlr customer service was better to deal with than Audi in my experience. As mentioned before it costs the manufacturers/dealership buttons to replace these things.
I reckon if all the work that went in my car as a retail customer that would have cost into £20k+. There’s no way it makes economical sense to put that into the car but it must cost them very little.

 

[tiggerthefox]

@AlS3BE you’re absolutely correct.
This isn’t about a premium priced model at all. I’d apply the same pressure if I’d acquired an entry-level A1 Technik in Shell White with zero options and I mean no disrespect towards that vehicle or owners of it.
It‘s about what happens when things go pear-shaped and this dealer, and its group HQ, couldn’t care less.
My regular, long term Audi Centre is first class. They’ve had my back as a customer for nearly twenty years and this is a key reason why I’ve stayed brand loyal. I’d have gladly bought my latest car from them but they didn’t have stock at the time and that was the only reason I went elsewhere. They’re getting all the aftercare, though.
I’m pleased for you that your experience has been less onerous.

 

[AlS3BE]

@AlS3BE you’re absolutely correct.
This isn’t about a premium priced model at all. I’d apply the same pressure if I’d acquired an entry-level A1 Technik in Shell White with zero options and I mean no disrespect towards that vehicle or owners of it.
It‘s about what happens when things go pear-shaped and this dealer, and its group HQ, couldn’t care less.
My regular, long term Audi Centre is first class. They’ve had my back as a customer for nearly twenty years and this is a key reason why I’ve stayed brand loyal. I’d have gladly bought my latest car from them but they didn’t have stock at the time and that was the only reason I went elsewhere. They’re getting all the aftercare, though.
I’m pleased for you that your experience has been less onerous.

I think for me I was lucky in the sense that Jlr finance(Lloyds bank) wasn’t part of the Jlr group and they applied the right amount of pressure on them to get stuff sorted then when the engine/gearbox issues arose they sided with me gave me the options to send it back which was a no brainer. Was still a year of me complaining to Jlr and finance. Even the dealer was on my side cause it was that problematic.

 

[JRD729]

I have had good and bad experiences with Audi / VW customer services. When I bought a 3 year old A4 from Derby Audi in 2012 I went to collect the car and they'd basically tried to tart up a tatty car on a shoe string. The bonnet had been painted badly, there was a knarly hole drilled in one of the rear door shuts as part of a really lazy smart repair (to try and knock out a dent in the wheel arch) ... The salesman took me for a complete fool and said 'Oh, that's OK, it's just missing a grommet' ... I ended up taking the car (it was a full spec car in otherwise good low milage condition) and Audi customer services basically had it taken away, sent to the local Audi body shop and completely sorted... Which I assumed got billed back to Derby Audi...

I know a local detailer who regularly gets brand new cars in from customers who have picked them up in shabby condition (scuffs, just dirty, scratches put in by the dealer valeters) and is paid by the dealer to put them right to stop the customer rejecting it or making more of a fuss... He ends up fully cleaning them inside and out, and often re polishing the paint etc etc ...

A more recent dispute with a VW dealer about my wifes 'Immulate' polo GTI that we later discovered a poor smart repair on (again, we picked up a white car on a grey day' ... got us nowhere, sales manager was a 1970s back street dealer throw back and VW cust services gave zero cares.

I think there is a gereral problem with these multi branch huge dealers prepping cars, to be fair my local Audi dealers are amazing and will bend over backwards to make a customer go away happy... but they do have a problem with the prep centre that gets all the cars ready... they are prepping 100s and 100s of cars, different brands, for the group... Detail goes out of the window...

When I bought my RS5 (Used) I switched my purchase last minute to another (more expensive) one they had... the initial one I had chosen was a mess, filthy, bad paint in numerous places, just a mess... Would have cost £100s at the detailers to make it look presentable ...

Many of their customers just aren't delail people, and will just get in and drive it and never notice the presentation issues...

I'm not sure what the answer is...

 

[Mittersill]

Just wondered has there been a resolution to this dispute?

 

[tiggerthefox]

I have had good and bad experiences with Audi / VW customer services. When I bought a 3 year old A4 from Derby Audi in 2012 I went to collect the car and they'd basically tried to tart up a tatty car on a shoe string. The bonnet had been painted badly, there was a knarly hole drilled in one of the rear door shuts as part of a really lazy smart repair (to try and knock out a dent in the wheel arch) ... The salesman took me for a complete fool and said 'Oh, that's OK, it's just missing a grommet' ... I ended up taking the car (it was a full spec car in otherwise good low milage condition) and Audi customer services basically had it taken away, sent to the local Audi body shop and completely sorted... Which I assumed got billed back to Derby Audi...

I know a local detailer who regularly gets brand new cars in from customers who have picked them up in shabby condition (scuffs, just dirty, scratches put in by the dealer valeters) and is paid by the dealer to put them right to stop the customer rejecting it or making more of a fuss... He ends up fully cleaning them inside and out, and often re polishing the paint etc etc ...

A more recent dispute with a VW dealer about my wifes 'Immulate' polo GTI that we later discovered a poor smart repair on (again, we picked up a white car on a grey day' ... got us nowhere, sales manager was a 1970s back street dealer throw back and VW cust services gave zero cares.

I think there is a gereral problem with these multi branch huge dealers prepping cars, to be fair my local Audi dealers are amazing and will bend over backwards to make a customer go away happy... but they do have a problem with the prep centre that gets all the cars ready... they are prepping 100s and 100s of cars, different brands, for the group... Detail goes out of the window...

When I bought my RS5 (Used) I switched my purchase last minute to another (more expensive) one they had... the initial one I had chosen was a mess, filthy, bad paint in numerous places, just a mess... Would have cost £100s at the detailers to make it look presentable ...

Many of their customers just aren't delail people, and will just get in and drive it and never notice the presentation issues...

I'm not sure what the answer is...

Interesting.
My local, and long term, Audi Centre is Sytner Derby. I’ve never had a bad word with them and they have consistently supported me as a customer for approaching two decades now.
This included managing a potentially difficult and expensive partial engine rebuild on my previous A4 (first registered as a demo by them and maintained by them exclusively throughout my ownership) due to an oil consumption test failure after months of topping up the level with a litre each time at around 1,000-1,200 mile intervals. This ultimately cost me nothing and included a loan car for the near two months my car was in dry dock.
They have assisted where appropriate for them with this complaint, although they can only go so far. But shooting a video from inside the vehicle to illustrate the issues with the scratched windscreen was much appreciated.
I think your experience, and the great-to-appalling experiences I’ve had with two dealers in different franchised groups just serve to illustrate it can be a step into the unknown when trouble arrives.
I certainly won’t be returning to the dealer I’m in dispute with and it is only the current state of the complaint that prevents me from naming and shaming the centre concerned, and its Head of Business.

 

[tiggerthefox]

Just wondered has there been a resolution to this dispute?

Hi @Mittersill nope, still case pending with The Motor Ombudsman. I’m patient.

 

[Mittersill]

Hi @Mittersill nope, still case pending with The Motor Ombudsman. I’m patient.

Wishing you all the best in getting this matter resolved to your satisfaction