A3 1.8T Management light

[ceefna]

Hi experts, have had this problem for as long as i can remember, when reading the codes I always have
17705 - Pressure Drop between Turbo and Throttle Valve (check D.V.!)
P1297 - 35-00 - -
17545 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Add): System too Rich
P1137 - 35-00 - -
When checking block 032 with vag-com the second reading is -25 showing it is too rich for the system to correct, could this be down to the 225bhp injectors?
Also I have pressure tested the system an found a couple of small leaks which I have sorted but light comes back on after approx a week. When pressure testing anything above 6psi and I had to put something heavy on the oil filler cap to stop it leaking, does this show a problem with the PCV?
This morning I ran a 20mph to red line test logging block 115 and 118, here are the results
28 February 2008 11:44:32
1.8L R4/5VT 0002

Group A: 115
Engine Speed Engine Load Spec. Boost Actual Boost
TIME 700-6800 RPM 15-150% 990-1800 mbar <=1800 mbar
STAMP /min % mbar mbar
0.01 2400 23.3 1000 1030
0.86 2840 87.2 2050 1270
1.77 3600 138.3 1980 2010
2.67 4560 144.4 1950 2050
3.48 5400 144.4 1800 2020
4.28 6080 136.8 1700 1950
5.19 6760 110.5 1000 2070
5.99 5200 12 1000 1160
6.79 4520 12 1000 1050
28 February 2008 11:46:42
1.8L R4/5VT 0002

Group A: 115
Engine Speed Engine Load Spec. Boost Actual Boost
TIME 700-6800 RPM 15-150% 990-1800 mbar <=1800 mbar
STAMP /min % mbar mbar
0.51 2400 12.8 1000 1000
1.31 2600 75.9 2070 1130
2.11 3160 126.3 2060 1730
3.02 4080 142.9 2010 2050
3.83 4920 145.1 1880 2020
4.73 5680 142.9 1760 2010
5.64 6400 131.6 1680 1930
6.44 5600 10.5 1000 1380
7.34 4400 17.3 1000 1050
8.15 4320 32.3 1000 1080
As you can see the specified boost jumps instantly to 2070 on acceleration but the actual boost is miles behind, is this why i am getting a boost leak fault code? and should the map demand instant boost like this?
Below is the log for block 118, don't really understand if the duty cycle is showing correctly.



Group B: 118
Engine Speed Air Temp In Boost Dut Cyc Actual Boost
TIME 700-6800 RPM <=110 C 0-100% <=1800 mbar
STAMP /min °C % mbar
0.36 2560 25 95.3 1020
1.37 3240 23 95.3 1740
2.17 4040 21 74.9 2040
3.08 5000 18 65.9 2070
3.88 5760 18 34.5 1980
4.7 6440 18 0 1930
5.59 5960 19 0 1440
6.39 4560 21 0 1080
7.19 4480 23 0 1040



Group B: 118
Engine Speed Air Temp In Boost Dut Cyc Actual Boost
TIME 700-6800 RPM <=110 C 0-100% <=1800 mbar
STAMP /min °C % mbar
0.01 2360 26 0 1000
0.91 2480 26 95.3 970
1.71 2840 24 95.3 1360
2.62 3640 21 76.1 2030
3.42 4480 20 72.9 2050
4.33 5360 18 54.5 2030
5.14 6040 19 0 1960
6.04 6320 20 0 2520
6.94 4680 20 0 1120
7.74 4320 21 0 1030

Hope there is something hidden in these logs that might be of use to one of you, If you need any more info please ask
Thanks for your time
Ceefna

 

[1animal1]

curious Ceefna, how long did it take to type the codes out?

 

[ceefna]

Copy and paste dear boy!!!!!!!!!

 

[1animal1]

wonderful tool is that...may i just add

 

[guyl]

Hi Ceefna
Its not of any help to you, but I have been getting exactly the same fault codes as you, and i'm sure i'm not getting anywhere near the mileage to a tank of petrol that i used to.
As far as i know i have the standard injectors, so that is the only difference.
I plan on doing some logs using VAG COM, but wont have time till next weekend, so I am watching this thread for answers/solutions.
When you pressure tested the system, what did you use? i have been struggling to find anything that fits the air intake by the MAF snugly!
Thanks

 

[ceefna]

I used a gas canister fro a camping stove to block to MAF end off (fits like a dream) then removed the small hose from the fuel evap solenoid to connect to the airline. I did clamp off the pcv but it has been like James Bonds smoke screen for about 30 mins with the oil it has blown through. Cleared now though. Hope I get an answer on this as it is a pain in the a**. My thoughts are on the crank case breather side of things as I am sure it should'nt try to blow the oil filler cap off when under pressure.

 

[Longman]

Its not very easy to give comment as its such a short log. But I don't think you have a boost leak. Although the specified boost shoots up to its limit, the actual will take a few seconds to peak (and overboost) then drop to match it. This is the turbo spooling up and is shown in your results.

In the Group 118 logs, the duty cycle doesn't go above 95.3%. This figure shows how far closed the waste gate is. If its closer to 100% you have a leak as the gate should never be fully closed. This would mean that the turbo cant make the specified boost, measured at the MAP sensor.

Both error codes are really common on 1.8Ts, and come together quite often. I scanned a leon cupra R lately with the same code and suggeted he cleaned the MAF sensor. If the sensor is reading incorrect air flow, it will be making the A/F mixture too lean, or rich in your case.

Also, its worth checking the DV too. If its a standard one, they are prone to leaking as they have a diaphragm and they can split.

Hope this helps.

 

[ceefna]

Hi Longman, is 95% closed an ok reading? I have also done some logging on block 002 and the MAF has never faulted, will try giving it a clean just be sure. I have a forge DV with a yellow spring, have checked this with air line/ vac gauge and is fine. The bloke that did the map got the file from Austria its a standard file for K04 turbo which i have, but since the map I have fitted S3 inlet and injectors. I wonder if the larger injectors are causing the over fueling, does anybody know what blocks to check for Lambda checks in Vag-com?

 

[Longman]

Yes, 95% is fine when on full boost.

What BHP are you running? I would have thought, unless you are at a stage 2 remap, that a yellow spring was perhaps too hard. I have a green in mine and its standard. That might be worth a try.

I wonder whether the S3 injectors may be the problem as I would expect them to have to be mapped in. If they are larger output and the ECU doesn't know, it could be opening them for too long, thinking they are std....

Blocks 30 - 32 will give you Lambda values.

 

[ceefna]

Don't know what power is, the map was a modified S3 file which I believe are 260ish, don't think mine is anywhere near that but up to a tun it's quicker than my mates VXR. Surely the tougher the DV spring the less chance there is that boost pressure will blow it open? will check the fueling on the blocks you mentioned.
Thanks

 

[Longman]

You are right, but if its not opening at all, it will throw up a code. I am not sure but it might be the same "Check DV" label.

However, as yours seems to be modified fairly highly, the yellow should be ok, its just stock - stage 1 that a yellow is a bit stiff for.

I'd be interested to hear how you get on.

 

[ceefna]

Light is back on, Block 032 on Vag-Com is at -25 again so def running too rich. Have done a log of blocks 115/031 and 002 if anybody can spot any problems with these logs please let me know as i don't know where to go next with this. logs are on this link:-

http://www.westyorkshireplumbing.co.uk/misc/audi-log.xls

Thanks for your time
Ceefna

 

[Longman]

Ceefna,

You need to do an exceleration run in 3rd or 4th from low revs to the red line to be able to determine any problems throught the rev range. That log doesn't really show me anything I am afraid.

 

[ceefna]

Thanks Longman, will do it now and post back.

 

[ceefna]

Which blocks should i log?

 

[ceefna]

Carried out a 4th gear log which you can view here:-

http://www.westyorkshireplumbing.co.uk/misc/4thgearlog.xls

when i went out to do the log started the car and it was misfiring badly from cold, checked on vag-com and got multiple cylinder misfires intermittent code it had 67 misfires detected but cleared when it warmed up, Have been messing today so wonder if i have a bad connection somewhere for it to be all cylinders.
Any more Ideas?
Thanks for your time

 

[Longman]

Sorry mate, I missed the last couple of posts.

The boost looks nice and high. Is it remapped? Its higher than I expected.

MAF results look healthy but in my experience, that doesn't meet its ok. I would give it a clean.

The missfires could be moisture and cold but could be a coil pack on its way out. What was the code? Did it say all cylinders?

 

[ceefna]

No problem about missing the posts. Glad the log looks ok, yes it is mapped, a Farmer in Scarborough who (get this specializes in tractors) did it. He gets the files from Austria to whatever spec you like, all for £200 a bargain i think. Have looked at some other logs that have been posted on a Seat site and they seem to be pulling a lot more air flow, up to 200g/s so didn't think my map was that good. In the past with my car when I first fitted the 225bhp injectors i accidentally damaged the small seal on the fuel pressure regulator and that gave me exactly the same misfires as yesterday, do you think i could have a fuel pressure problem? low fuel pressure=overfueling/ dripping injectors or am i typing crap? I can't remember the exact code from yesterday but it was all cylinders that misfires were detected on, do they have to be electrical eg coil packs/plugs or would low fuel pressure throw misfire codes? I have won some std injectors on ebay so will try them to see if it gets rid of the running rich fault. Also ( hope i am not boring you too much) when i pressure test the system should it hold a constant pressure? if i put 10 psi in my engine in 20 secs approx it is nearly all gone, I have checked all hoses with washing up liquid/water mix in a squirty bottle( if you have even the smallest leak it bubbles up like mad) and i cannot find any more leaks is it just going down the exhaust?

 

[Longman]

I can only really assume its running remapped 1.8T figures as I am not sure of the remap without getting in on the rollers.

For which the Boost looks good and MAF, for about 200bhp looks ok. I use 153g/s x 1.322 = 202bhp.

Its difficult to say as your car has a mixed pedigree!!

I think for 200g/s, like the logs you have seen, you are in remapped genuine S3/LCR territory at 260bhp ish.

Not sure about your pressure test though. As the logs show, you are holding 95% wastegate duty and that is ok at full revs.

Where are you plugging up to do the test? In the TIP end? I think you would have to plug up the throttle body end otherwise the air would go out the exhaust like you say. I don't think there is a position in the cam where everything is shut.

Not sure about the missfires. I guess if it is far too rich, it might not fire properly. The fault code would be helpful so i can look up the full description. I think you would be unlucky that all 4 coil packs would go at once.

 

[ceefna]

Have put vag-com back on and got 6 faults

16684- Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300-35-10--- Intermittent

16687- Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected
P0303-35-10--- Intermittent

16686- Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected
P0302-35-10--- Intermittent

17705- Pressure Drop Between Turbo and Throttle Body (check D.V.!)
P1297-35-00--

16726- Camshaft Position Sensor (G40): Signal too Low
P0342-35-10--- Intermittent

17535- Fuel trim: Bank 1 (Multi): System too Rich
P1127-35-00--
Never seen the cam fault before Have been messing with the pipework round that area and wonder if i have a bad connection? This may be the cause of the misfire faults.
Thanks for your replies

 

[Longman]

I think they are all related. Is it possible you have unplugged the Cam Position Sensor accidentaly or broken a wire?

Looking at the codes and doing a bit of digging, the over rich fueling and/or the Cam Position Sensor would definitely be a cause of the missfire.

I would look at returning the injectors back to stock as a start, especially if you are unsure whether they are working or fitted ok.

 

[ceefna]

just waiting for the postman to bring the new ones so will report back once fitted. Is there any way to test the cam sensor/ is it a part that goes faulty as all the wiring etc looks ok

 

[ceefna]

quick question, on the first log i posted:-
http://www.westyorkshireplumbing.co.uk/misc/audi-log.xls
Why are the lambda actual/specified so diff?
Is lambda 1.99 rich or weak?
Ever since i have had this car it has always seemed to have a satellite delay between throttle pedal and engine. If i accelerate and go on and off the throttle there is a significant delay in responce from turbo. It's like its brain dead!
Has done this even when totally standard which makes me think it may have an unrelated problem
Is it possible to get the valve timing out on these engines? may have had a belt fitted wrong.

 

[Longman]

Lambda or 1.99 is VERY lean. Not sure why they are so different, but they shouldn't be. Thats a bit of a strange result really as we thought it was overfueling.

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/fuel-trim.html

Maybe, if you Lambda sensor is duff, it could be telling the ECU that you are lean so its applying extra fuel but its actually overfueling because the Lambda is incorrect????

With regard to the delay, I found that my oem dump valve was quite slow at closing when I put my foot down from letting off. The new forge one I have made a significant difference as the spring made the piston return quicker. Is your DV ok? Standard?

Ignition timing is block 11 and 020 is timing correction. Any more than a correction factor of a prolonged 3 is too much and the ECU will be cutting back the power.

Anyone else shed any light???

 

[ceefna]

no there is only you talking to me, have a forge dump valve fitted but just been on few other sites and i think my n75 might be piped up wrong, mine is like this

FROM TURBO BOOST
II
II
TO II DDDDDD
WASTEGATE IIIIIIIIIIII DDDDDD N75J
II DDDDDD
II
II
II
LONG PIPE INTO INTAKE PIPE
looking at a few pictures on the web i think i may have the boost and wastegate on the wrong way round

 

[Longman]

Pictures speak a thousand words!!

That lot means nothing to me! I reckon the N75J would need changing back to be safe as I have heard that they create probs with overboost.

You obviousy aren't getting that problem at the moment though...

 

[ceefna]

Sorry about the crap diagram, mine must have been piped correctly because after swapping them got loads of overboost and hit code 17743. again from 1st start this morning was running rough/ 60ish misfires detected on all cylinders till it warmed up, but no fault code( this can't be ign related for it nor to store misfire codes?)
I went through all the blocks while it was missing and appart from it trying to weaken its self off the only discrepancy i could see was on block 093 phase position 1 bank 1 where mine was reading -6cf. see link
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/090-098.html#_ftn1

According to note 1 at the bottom of the page
[1] Deviation from correct position (shift of camshaft position sensor on shaft), 0 = Position OK
could this be my problem as it looks like my sensor is in the wrong position, is it adjustable?
Still no injectors, ****** parcel farce!

 

[Longman]

I don't know if you can adjust the sensor. I think its a case of replacing it to be honest. It senses the position of the CAM Shaft as that is adjusted by the ecu depending on the advance or ****** required by the MAP.

I wonder if its related to the cold misfires and whether its ok when its hot because there is less timing advance. Might be worth swaping that over and seeing if it makes a difference.

 

[ceefna]

Made me go back to the cam belt fitted wrong idea i had. Have ordered a new belt on the strength of it coz it needs doing anyway. Think i might check the valve timing thisaft. I work at a large insurance company bodyshop so daily i drive the same model cars and mine is brain dead compared to them. Do you think we could be onto something or would it have lots more problems if valve timing was out? don't suppose you know if pulley's are keyed on or taper( can get them anywhere) like fords, coz i cant see how anybody could fit it a tooth out unless its jumped.

 

[Longman]

I don't know about the pully to be honest.

I don't know how many teeth you would have to jump to make a mess of the valves agains the pistons but I would hate to think that was possible, unless of course the tensioner wasn't doing its job.

If it was fitted wrong in the first place you would have had these codes of ages. Plus, do you know if its even been touched if you know you need to change the belt anyway.

I am stumped to be honest, its really hard not being there to see and hear the probs for myself....

 

[ceefna]

Think its fixed, injectors came yesterday and since fitting them it drives like a good un. will run some logs later and see whats happening but don't think i will get the rich code anymore. Thanks for your help
Ceefna

 

[Longman]

Good news mate.

Glad it wasn't a timing issue!!