How this 370 hp and 460 Nm works without s-tronic tuning. I supposed that there is lower torque limiter in standard qearbox. So how is increased torque utilized without raising torque limiter?
8V S3 Tuning Thread
- Thread starter Johnnyb
- Start date
How this 370 hp and 460 Nm works without s-tronic tuning. I supposed that there is lower torque limiter in standard qearbox. So how is increased torque utilized without raising torque limiter?
pat15312
Registered User
pat15312
Registered User
I'm not sure how the torque limit works in practice then. There are tons of big turbo conversion 2.0 TFSI cars with DSG running into 500+bhp and equivalent torque ratings without DSG software.
I was pretty sure it's more than 350Nm though, this is the rating for the 6-speed, not the 7-speed DSG right?
I was pretty sure it's more than 350Nm though, this is the rating for the 6-speed, not the 7-speed DSG right?
Dq250 box states 350nm
There's no way anyone's running 500hp on oe software without slip... No chance!
On standard clutch packs maybe but not standard software aswell.
The standard clutch packs can take 450lbft fairly comfortably as long as it isn't getting total abuse. HPA stage 3 software is rated at 600lbft and can be used with standard clutch packs. As with all things like this don't rag it when cold let it warm up etc.
Hurdys golf R is running just over 400lbft and he's using just software and has done 100's of launches in his and I can confirm it's stupidly quick.
There's no way anyone's running 500hp on oe software without slip... No chance!
On standard clutch packs maybe but not standard software aswell.
The standard clutch packs can take 450lbft fairly comfortably as long as it isn't getting total abuse. HPA stage 3 software is rated at 600lbft and can be used with standard clutch packs. As with all things like this don't rag it when cold let it warm up etc.
Hurdys golf R is running just over 400lbft and he's using just software and has done 100's of launches in his and I can confirm it's stupidly quick.
Yes, that's interesting thing. I don't know how it technically works but as earlier mentioned, Dq250 box states 350nm. So, DSG can utilize 350 Nm? ABT- tuning is 460 Nm and they say nothing mods to DSG- software. What is thing that i don't understand?
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2008
- Messages
- 10,887
- Reaction score
- 4,888
- Points
- 113
As you say,the clutch pack will cope with around 450lbs,and software upgrades will allow access to that,but as for running 500bhp on stock packs and software,providing torque is limited,then technically it's possible,and limiting torque through software is also possible,and I know of at least one person doing just that sort of thing to limit the possibility of too much torque.
Have you experience about magnetic ride system and how reliable it is? I've read that it has two modes:normal and sport. I test drove S3 which has sport suspension and it was very good. Is magnetic ride worth to pay?
Here in Germany some people say that the OEM 380nm S-tronic will limit at exactly 460nm. So this is why Abt can offer up to 460nm.
The problem at the moment is that the tuners have no chance to write the software to the control unit. They can only offer a box which you can install by yourself. The problem with this box is, that it manipulates data. For example: sucked air temperature..
But I have read that APR is able to write their software to the control unit?!? Any information about that?
Sorry for my bad english...
Best regards from cold germany...
The problem at the moment is that the tuners have no chance to write the software to the control unit. They can only offer a box which you can install by yourself. The problem with this box is, that it manipulates data. For example: sucked air temperature..
But I have read that APR is able to write their software to the control unit?!? Any information about that?
Sorry for my bad english...
Best regards from cold germany...
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2011
- Messages
- 62
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 6
- Location
- Lancashire
- Website
- www.autographcars.co.uk
There are several different O.E. software versions in the DQ250 gearboxes. Some of them have a max torque limit of 350NM early MK5 Golf GTi for example) and some are factory set at 500NM (most S3 from 2008 on for example). The maximum calculation capability in the earlier (up to @ 2010) DQ250 for torque reasons is 500NM so if the factory limiter is set at 500NM then basically the factory software is more than capable of handling torque from a Stage 2 tuned car because if the torque produced by the engine goes over 500NM it doesn't matter, the gearbox is already at maximum. The problems then come with physical limits such as the clutch packs etc.
We have done some software related manipulation of oil pressures in the clutch basket, and response times of filling the clutch baskets with oil to help cope with torque way over 500NM on stock clutches on the earlier DQ250 boxes. We have found that the latest software version from VAG (for example in the 2012 on Golf R) are really well optimised from the factory and seem to be able to handle over 600NM torque on stock clutches with our software upgrade.
As far as reading / writing the gearbox software we have not yet seen a DQ250 gearbox that we can't tune. We also have our new end user cables available in January so you guys can flash your gearboxes from the comfort of your own home!
We have done some software related manipulation of oil pressures in the clutch basket, and response times of filling the clutch baskets with oil to help cope with torque way over 500NM on stock clutches on the earlier DQ250 boxes. We have found that the latest software version from VAG (for example in the 2012 on Golf R) are really well optimised from the factory and seem to be able to handle over 600NM torque on stock clutches with our software upgrade.
As far as reading / writing the gearbox software we have not yet seen a DQ250 gearbox that we can't tune. We also have our new end user cables available in January so you guys can flash your gearboxes from the comfort of your own home!
Silky-S3
Is loving his new 8V S3!
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2009
- Messages
- 1,401
- Reaction score
- 345
- Points
- 83
This sounds very interesting mate. So you say you can already map the Stronic gearbox in my 8V S3?
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2011
- Messages
- 62
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 6
- Location
- Lancashire
- Website
- www.autographcars.co.uk
Torque intervention mapping required me thinks............
Or TIV . R- tech have done this successfully on many applications but its custom mapping not tuning boxes.
Sean
Or TIV . R- tech have done this successfully on many applications but its custom mapping not tuning boxes.
Sean
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2008
- Messages
- 10,887
- Reaction score
- 4,888
- Points
- 113
Nothing listed on either APR UK or USA sites.
They DO offer ECU programs for the RS6 etc,but at serious cost,and looks like a whole ECU re-write if you look at the site.
Yes it looks like that they are able to write the software to the control unit of the RS6/RS7. I think this is positive, since the german tuners like MTM and Abt are only offering a tuning box for the RS6/RS7.
I hope APR will release an ECU upgrade for the GTI / S3 soon
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2008
- Messages
- 10,887
- Reaction score
- 4,888
- Points
- 113
Yes it looks like that they are able to write the software to the control unit of the RS6/RS7. I think this is positive, since the german tuners like MTM and Abt are only offering a tuning box for the RS6/RS7.
I hope APR will release an ECU upgrade for the GTI / S3 soon
You did see the price of the ECU for the RS6.....looks pretty reasonable.
Yes it costs $2,999.00. But that is normal price for an ECU tuning for a RS6. MTM will charge here in germany 3,999⬠for an ECU tuning for the old 2008 RS6.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2008
- Messages
- 10,887
- Reaction score
- 4,888
- Points
- 113
I was told that APR are working on a map, and rather than use a remote device they are developing an app for iphone / android to be able to control boost, timing etc...
I'd imagine it's early days but will post more if i hear anything!
I'd imagine it's early days but will post more if i hear anything!
I would like to see what the custom tuners like Badger 5 or R-tech could develop out of this engine! I know R-tech have had some good results out of Stage 2 8P's and Bill at Badger 5 has his own Leon Cupra he's slowly developing on.. I have a custom map from bill on my 8L with a baby hybrid at 315bhp and 340lb/ft. I know the 8V has a larger turbo and more effecient! Looking forward to results guys!
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2008
- Messages
- 10,887
- Reaction score
- 4,888
- Points
- 113
I think the issue for all of the tuners will be ECU encryption,and the trade off between investment in cracking it,and return in terms of how many buy the product.
pat15312
Registered User
Echoing Alex's sentiment, I think only the bigger tuners will be able to afford the investment in R&D to produce a ready for market product.
There's always boffins that can do it! I'd rather a custom map rather generic from my experience.. But more importantly, read more about this engine, it's pretty nice! I read the golf R will be closely priced!?
The Golf R is now up on the VW configurator for ordering. It does come in for similar money but it's very hard to compare apples with apples as the range of options is nowhere near as comprehensive as Audi's. It does come with ACC as standard though, but not leather seats.
Doesn't look very nice though...............
I now see that on the Audi configurator you can order a six speed manual S3
I have understood that ABT offeres warranty in Germany if you tune new car. And you can buy ABT tuned car from Audi shop. Is that right, have you experience about that? I'm in Finland and don't know how warranty works here. Have to check.
If ABT is so near Audi i wonder why they have not ability write direct to ECU but insted use separate tuning box? Or is it some other reason?
If ABT offers that kind of warranty, so that is my choice.
If ABT is so near Audi i wonder why they have not ability write direct to ECU but insted use separate tuning box? Or is it some other reason?
If ABT offers that kind of warranty, so that is my choice.
the_lecht_rocks
Registered User
Difficult to say because i'm just planning to buy S3 
So i'm here forum. Now i have Volvo V60 D5 man. I'm just collecting information for my decision. Let see what happens under this year. There is some things to decide with car (man/s-tronic, magnetic ride or not, tuning possibilities) and then some private things which affects time table.
I'm also interested how quattro works in slippery conditions and what's difference to drive manual or s-tronic. I have always had manual transmissions but s-tronic is pretty good but but. Magnetic ride is also interesting but is it worth to pay?
Is it reliable and how expensive to fix.
Sorry, no answers but more questions
So i'm here forum. Now i have Volvo V60 D5 man. I'm just collecting information for my decision. Let see what happens under this year. There is some things to decide with car (man/s-tronic, magnetic ride or not, tuning possibilities) and then some private things which affects time table.I'm also interested how quattro works in slippery conditions and what's difference to drive manual or s-tronic. I have always had manual transmissions but s-tronic is pretty good but but. Magnetic ride is also interesting but is it worth to pay?
Is it reliable and how expensive to fix.Sorry, no answers but more questions
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2011
- Messages
- 62
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 6
- Location
- Lancashire
- Website
- www.autographcars.co.uk
We are currently working on a tool for these new Simos ECU's. We can already read / write them successfully but the software / tool is not ready for full release yet as we haven't seen enough different software versions. I expect we should have it finished in Feb this year. We also already have all the data for these ECU's to allow us to develop tuning files so watch this space....
I may be back asking for some cars to read
We are currently working on a tool for these new Simos ECU's. We can already read / write them successfully but the software / tool is not ready for full release yet as we haven't seen enough different software versions. I expect we should have it finished in Feb this year. We also already have all the data for these ECU's to allow us to develop tuning files so watch this space....
I may be back asking for some cars to read
The Simos ECU are made by Siemens. I know a lot of the 'bigger' Audi models use Siemens ECUs but I understood the A3/S3 range used Bosch units. I may be wrong of course.
I believe the Bosch unit was in the 8P A3/S3 range, and now Audi are using the new Siemens one in the 8V range, apparently a lot harder to crack...
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2011
- Messages
- 62
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 6
- Location
- Lancashire
- Website
- www.autographcars.co.uk
We are currently programming them on the bench, but are trying to crack the OBD protocol to make an end user cable to do them over the port. We have a brand new MK7 GTi arriving (they use the same / similar ECU as the S3) at the end of this month for development so I expect it to progress pretty quickly then.
Historically all the RS / S / R range from VAG have used Bosch ECU's but over the last few years they have introduced a selection of Siemens units in various cars (All 3.0T in Q7, S4 etc, Golf MK6 1.6TDi, Golf MK5 2.0TDi PPD). We don't like them.... They are difficult to get data for and also difficult to crack as far as programming goes but we managed to crack the 3.0T (S4 333BHP etc) ones fairly quickly but the solution for them was we have to remove the ECU to enable OBD programming and then flash them over the port once back in the car.
Once we do it I'm sure they will produce good results, watch this space!
Siemens units are used in many Fords too though I don't know if the 1.6 ecoboost uses them or a Bosch..
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2011
- Messages
- 62
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 6
- Location
- Lancashire
- Website
- www.autographcars.co.uk
Funnily enough we have just about finished the development on the new Focus ST250 2.0 Ecoboost, and the Fiesta ST180 1.6 Ecoboost.... all the new Ecoboost engines have moved to Bosch units now! You are right, Fords were Siemens / Delphi / Visteon in the past.
Ill be Ordering my New s3 Next week Hopefully. Hopefully Shark, Revo etc will have come up with the remaps soon. In the mean while, Handling mods will be on the list. Coming from a stage 3 s3, hope fully it will still put a smile on my face.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2011
- Messages
- 62
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 6
- Location
- Lancashire
- Website
- www.autographcars.co.uk
You S3 guys should be interested in this: Audi TT Big Turbo conversionAutograph Cars Blog - Autograph Cars Blog
It's 1.8T stuff so doesn't apply to the 2.0TFSi owners but interesting none the less :icon_thumright:
It's 1.8T stuff so doesn't apply to the 2.0TFSi owners but interesting none the less :icon_thumright:
In case you are interested in an exhaust upgrade Supersprint Starts Audi S3 Custom Exhaust Project
OXR225
Registered User
Hopefully my mate will take delivery of his new S3 today here in AUS.
I have an ST225 and I'm pretty sure that runs a Bosch ecu. A lot easier to work with AFAIK. Good luck with the cracking mate. Can't wait to see what development can be made on these S3's :thumbup:
I have an ST225 and I'm pretty sure that runs a Bosch ecu. A lot easier to work with AFAIK. Good luck with the cracking mate. Can't wait to see what development can be made on these S3's :thumbup:
