New Merc AMG CLA45 unveiled at Goodwood
- Thread starter HM3P
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Guess my opinion won't be big news, but I'll type it here anyway...
I think this illustrates the biggest problems of the high performance electric cars extremely well - the petrolheads just can't let go of what they've used to in ICE cars, neither customers nor, apparently, the developers. Yesterday I watched some youtube clip of this car on a track and God I hated the fake sound, shifts and other **** what they've stuffed in there to make it something what it isn't. It could just proudly be the EV that beats most of the ICE rivals around it by refining everything to the max. Instead they have spent countless hours to make it a fake ICE. The vegan burger analogy is apt - trying its best to mimic something what it isn't and will never be. It might even be a nice product and come close to what it's mimicing, but for me it's just intolerable on principle. There's wonderful vegan food out there and it will never be anything like a burger, and why should it.
I like the Audi's approach with the E-Tron GT way more.
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I think this illustrates the biggest problems of the high performance electric cars extremely well - the petrolheads just can't let go of what they've used to in ICE cars, neither customers nor, apparently, the developers. Yesterday I watched some youtube clip of this car on a track and God I hated the fake sound, shifts and other **** what they've stuffed in there to make it something what it isn't. It could just proudly be the EV that beats most of the ICE rivals around it by refining everything to the max. Instead they have spent countless hours to make it a fake ICE. The vegan burger analogy is apt - trying its best to mimic something what it isn't and will never be. It might even be a nice product and come close to what it's mimicing, but for me it's just intolerable on principle. There's wonderful vegan food out there and it will never be anything like a burger, and why should it.
I like the Audi's approach with the E-Tron GT way more.
Now playing: Pantera - Walk
Being totally honest, I don't understand why manufacturers feel the need to keep overpowering EVs. I just don't get the point in a CLA having nearly 700bhp and a 0-60 time of 2.7 secs.
I'd much rather see a return to lighter cars with less power that are more fun to drive.
And I put cars like the RS5 in that bracket too. Watching some of the clips of it on YouTube, yes it has impressive acceleration and it looks nice, but there's just no soul or character to it.
I'd much rather see a return to lighter cars with less power that are more fun to drive.
And I put cars like the RS5 in that bracket too. Watching some of the clips of it on YouTube, yes it has impressive acceleration and it looks nice, but there's just no soul or character to it.
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They'll have an advantage if they don't go the silly Merc way but only design the car the best they can and simply make the most honest and functional EV they can. But I'm so afraid that's not gonna happen. Looks like whenever one of the German brands showcases something new, the others go like "OMG we got to have that too!" totally ignoring how stupid the "innovation" is. Now I'm afraid of the syndrome of "Benz invented the car, now they did invent it again!" amongst the other brands even though we couldn't be more far from that.
I do understand. It's one of the few means to make a difference, despite the rivals doing the same. There's no solution to make the batteries lighter yet, so all the EV's are heavy, unless they compromise a lot in something else, like the interior quality. But this is just a rat race: You need a bigger battery to maintain a decent range, which makes the car heavier, so you need more power to compensate it - which leads to a need of a bigger battery to maintain the decent range.
When they truly innovate a battery that's capable enough and lightweight, then we won't have these discussions anymore.
I'd want to state how much I hate the new RS5. But Audi's done the one thing so much right there - it's simply so wonderfully good looking that I'd have one by a heartbeat. Even though I still hate the interior too!
Most of a certain demographic that buy and drive the RS 3 won’t be happy though if a new RS3 arrives and it’s slower than other cars.
Look at the reaction in certain owners groups to the last 8.5Y and the fact it’s kept the same HP/TQ and owners can’t do much about that now because Audi locked up things good and proper, unless you are prepared to take out the ECU and send away, spending ££££’s.
The 3 EVs we own I enjoy driving, especially the 5N, and not once since 2024 after selling the 8Y have I missed it.
We saw a black 26 8.5Y yesterday and again sadly it was being driven like a tool in 30mph areas.
I have to admit the new RS5 is one of the few new cars I actually like the look of, but that soured rapidly when I looked back at the pre-OPF B9 that I have been wanting for a while. For me it betters the new RS5 in just about every possible way that matters to me.
Funny you should say that. I have seen 2 8V RS3 out and about and both were being driven sensibly. Seems like the idiots have moved with the times
. Really nice black one cruised past me on the motorway when I had my kids sleeping in the back, got a nod and a wave as he passed. For a minute I thought I was back in the old Defender 
it's an EV it has no ICE engine so why make fake engine noises? I get the shifting simulation and that is just fine but those fake engine noises? no thanks... I've gotten to that age where i value silent running over a sporty exhaust. I do like a big tip and an upgraded exhaust diameter but i always get the most silent setup available. Noise doesn't make the car faster, better suspension parts, and an engine tune do... incase of an EV if it's already fast you might want to change rubber suspension parts for poly versions and upgrade the shocks for sportier versions but that is about it, and only when the old bushes and suspension start showing signs of ware...
Which in theory shouldn't be anytime soon lol. But i'll keep going with my old ICE cars until you can't buy them any more lol
Which in theory shouldn't be anytime soon lol. But i'll keep going with my old ICE cars until you can't buy them any more lol
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In my opinion the shifting simulation isn't more justified than the fake engine sound at all - the smooth, uninterrupted power delivery is one of the most undeniable profits of an EV, so why the hell would I want my EV to jerk intentionally?
Watched another video of a manual Porsche 911, also from the Goodwood festival. Gearshifts and noise so it's the same, huh?
Watched another video of a manual Porsche 911, also from the Goodwood festival. Gearshifts and noise so it's the same, huh?
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Because not all manual inputs have to be jerky... I drive a multi-tronic with manual mode, sport mode and flappy pedals, not only does the manual mode not jerk, it's just more responsive as it uses another ecu tune and pulls out 20+ more bhp ( yeah had another tune flashed to both the ecu and tmc) both auto and sport mode are smooth... manual mode just allows me to rev higher than the oem settings in both sport mode or drive mode let me. and as long as i rev match when down shifting, there is no jerkyness. it just makes for more driving sensation.
so if it's done well there is nothing wrong with it.. it's a different story if it's not done right.
so if it's done well there is nothing wrong with it.. it's a different story if it's not done right.
Ok looks like I should've used an another word than jerk. Maybe saying the acceleration curve having flat sections would've been more accurate.
But artificial gear changes would be even more absurd without the sound effects (and vice versa), since in an ICE car you never have one without the other. I get that listening to the engine rev and timing your shifts accordingly (or even sensing when the auto gearbox changes) makes you feel more connected to the car, and probably Merc was aiming for that kind of immersion. But to hell, that's just how you drive an ICE car. None of that has anything to do with an EV, which then has its own characteristics that you have to adapt to if you want to drive it at its limits. So I find the whole simulation thing irrelevant in the most fundamental meaning of the word... which should be obvious by now
But artificial gear changes would be even more absurd without the sound effects (and vice versa), since in an ICE car you never have one without the other. I get that listening to the engine rev and timing your shifts accordingly (or even sensing when the auto gearbox changes) makes you feel more connected to the car, and probably Merc was aiming for that kind of immersion. But to hell, that's just how you drive an ICE car. None of that has anything to do with an EV, which then has its own characteristics that you have to adapt to if you want to drive it at its limits. So I find the whole simulation thing irrelevant in the most fundamental meaning of the word... which should be obvious by now
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Lol, I got your point earlier. I was just pointing out that if it's done right, it can enhance the driving experience. Afaik most performance EV's only have 2 to 3 gears for forward motion.. but most don't even have any form of gearing, so why bother?
If they make the RS3 an EV then Audi are dead to me. Call it something else ***.
As for the Merc, as soon as you make anything electric it's mundane; let EV deliver the daily plod and keep ICE for the interesting stuff.
TX.
Edit - can't even say *** !
I hope they had learned their lesson at least in the naming policy with their recent odd and even numbers clusterf'ck. My guess would be RS3 E-Tron, even though they don't have any other EV's under the RS badge than the E-Tron GT RS, so there's no clear pattern yet.
More than naming it accordingly, I hope the product itself is decent. At least Audi was one of the first to release a sporty EV so hopefully they won't see any reason to dilute both the new EVs and classic ICE RS cars by following someone else's lead and making the newer EVs mimic the old classics. I can't imagine anything much worse than an EV that plays the 5-pot sound from the speakers. (Even the current S3's "Soundaktor" that adds some fake 5-pot sidenote on top of the 4-banger sound makes me cringe.)
I'm all in for the EV's, after some of the core bottlenecks are solved. Them being un-ICE-like is definitely not one of them and developing them to be like that is aiming a capacity of problem solving to a way too wrong direction.
More than naming it accordingly, I hope the product itself is decent. At least Audi was one of the first to release a sporty EV so hopefully they won't see any reason to dilute both the new EVs and classic ICE RS cars by following someone else's lead and making the newer EVs mimic the old classics. I can't imagine anything much worse than an EV that plays the 5-pot sound from the speakers. (Even the current S3's "Soundaktor" that adds some fake 5-pot sidenote on top of the 4-banger sound makes me cringe.)
I'm all in for the EV's, after some of the core bottlenecks are solved. Them being un-ICE-like is definitely not one of them and developing them to be like that is aiming a capacity of problem solving to a way too wrong direction.
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Me neither, but IMO some Chinese manufacturers are killing it, making EV's luxurious and at affordable prices with options you can only find in the top segment of most European, Japanese and American cars and some take it far beyond that...
Once that becomes mainstream for all manufacturers than the whole EV experience will be focused on something else, what gadgets can do to make any trip more relaxed and entertaining.
China already experiences this shift, to people swapping cars just because they want the latest luxury option rather than worrying about how it handles, although some of them handle better than anything the competition are making at the moment.
But as I said it'll take a lot for me to give up on ICE cars simply because what's on offer now doesn't appeal to me at all.
Once that becomes mainstream for all manufacturers than the whole EV experience will be focused on something else, what gadgets can do to make any trip more relaxed and entertaining.
China already experiences this shift, to people swapping cars just because they want the latest luxury option rather than worrying about how it handles, although some of them handle better than anything the competition are making at the moment.
But as I said it'll take a lot for me to give up on ICE cars simply because what's on offer now doesn't appeal to me at all.
I'm not EVs biggest fan
TX.
Neither am I but there is no denying that if you can charge your car at home and only do short trips, they make complete sense for many people.
For our family wagon electric would be ideal and it would sit there with a full tank every morning. What stops me changing is the current petrol DSG estate does very well too but is also good at the occasional long run. We still go to places that are not served well by chargers and it would have a big impact. Price to change is also simply not worth it, no matter how cheap the electric is. I prefer the older car to drive too.
There is no denying EVs are fast, but cars have been more than fast enough for modern roads for a while now. For me it is all about how it drives and there is no EV that comes close to even a mediocre ICE car in that respect, even if only down the the inescapable effect of the weight.
Despite the weight you can't say Taycan and E-Tron GT don't drive extremely well. Of course not 911- or even RS3-well, depending on what kind of driving you compare, but they are great cars to drive. For me the instant power delivery is more appealing than the acceleration itself. It's also a thing you get used to very quickly, and after driving an EV the power build-up in the ICE cars feels a bit frustrating when pulling off in dense traffic, especially in the more basic cars.
But the pricing is still ridiculous. When I was going to order my current A3 I also got briefly interested in Cupra Born, but that worn off quickly when I figured out that just letting it sit in my shed and never driving it would cost me way more per month than driving the A3 as much I possibly can.
But the pricing is still ridiculous. When I was going to order my current A3 I also got briefly interested in Cupra Born, but that worn off quickly when I figured out that just letting it sit in my shed and never driving it would cost me way more per month than driving the A3 as much I possibly can.
To be honest I did not like the Taycan. I had one for about a week. Biggest problem for me was the size, just too big for UK roads. That is not an EV problem per-se but it was a problem.
Ultimate grip was there, but absolutely no feel at all. No weight transfer, no balance. Again, It would be a good car to commute and munch miles but for me not a drivers car at all.
I found the Panamera a far better drive than the Taycan because of the weight, but I would take a B9 RS4 over either of them to carry 4 and luggage on UK roads. It drives way better too.
That is just my point, the EV flagship cannot compete with a far cheaper ICE car. I would say not just the RS3 but S3 and basic TSI quattro would do better. Basic Cayman is a better drivers car than any of them.
I would commute in an EV but get in an ICE car for a drive.
You can make an ICE car good at driving dynamics and commuting, quite a few do both really well. To date I have not driven an EV that can do that.
The EV power delivery is fine low down, but higher up the speed range it drops off quite sharply. Fast overtakes are a different matter to traffic light launches. That is why some cars like the Taycan need a gearbox to attempt to maintain performance at higher speed.
No I'm sorry that's poppycock, All 3 of mine are literally foot down and gone, even when overtaking, in actual fact the performance 3 and Ionic5n move that quick when overtaking i have to be mindful of the car I'm overtaking......
If it doesn't happen why do they go to the bother of putting gearboxes on the Taycan and GT? Have to admit I only ever drove the older 3P and first Ionic but I was not that impressed higher up.No I'm sorry that's poppycock, All 3 of mine are literally foot down and gone, even when overtaking, in actual fact the performance 3 and Ionic5n move that quick when overtaking i have to be mindful of the car I'm overtaking......
It was what put me off the original Polestar when I drove it. I actually had a deposit down on one before I cancelled and bought the RS3.
Dunno never had one and never will.
To say performance drops off though is incorrect.
Sorry mate but it is certainly a thing with electric motors used in current cars. back-emf and weakening field hit performance as speed increases and it tails off more rapidly when the battery output reaches max continuous. If you look at the torque curve with speed, the torque available at start is double what it is at 60.
It is something I used to be involved with in a past life. Was the bane of my life back then
You probably don't feel it when you have 400-500bhp on tap but there are a lot of lower powered machines about now where it hurts.
Here’s a mountain pass video showing the older 3 P with SOC / field weakening effects.
Certainly never think while accelerating at higher speeds the Tesla is wanting, maybe while at a lower state of charge certainly and in the Ionic5N at below 20% the boost button is disabled when I tested it.
View: https://youtu.be/deOMyvbtoFE?si=RfUFKt-yJ1JnOI4H
The original Polestar was the one I looked at seriously. I liked the look of it along with the size and proportions and it still is one of the better handling EVs especially when fitted with the factory Ohlins. IMHO it drove much better than the model 3. Similar power to the RS3 which made the difference obvious. Off the line the Polestar was quicker but it just did not push you back in the seat much above 40. In the right gear the RS3 can push you back in the seat well north of a ton.
Glad I didn't go for one now given the residuals. Have thought of picking one up used but they had their share of issues and RS3 does what I need too well. Don't need another similar car.
I know when battery is at max output the drop is more severe. I think SOC plays a part in this, as does temperature both high and low.
As above electric motors make their maximum torque when 'stopped' as they spin faster the back 'emf' generates an opposing voltage which reduces torque
Taycan has a 2 speed gearbox to give hard acceleration low down and efficiency at high speed touring.
I took a Model 3 P out whilst waiting for my first RS3, I thought the instant acceleration was amazing but after a while of pushing it (say 5 miles) it seemed to lose hp? I eased off for a while and the performance seemed to 'come back'
I dont know whether it was the interesting graph above or the car govening battery temperature or similar?
The gearbox is not just for efficiency, it just puts the car in a better torque band at higher speed which will increase efficiency but also available performance. From Porsche's own blurb:
"First gear gives the Taycan even more acceleration from a standing start, while the long second gear ensures high efficiency and power reserves even at very high speeds."
Porsche were never going to make a car that fell flat on its face at autobahn speeds and then couldn't do the Munich-Berlin run without charging.
I think Tesla fudge it by using different gearing front and rear and they focus on weight which also helps. The Taycan is a heavy car being a bit more traditionally made.