Press clutch to start issue

CagaA4

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Hi All,

I had an issue with my clutch master cylinder that meant it needed replacing as it wouldn't start.

The workaround was to grab another one and connect it to the harness and push the rod down to test, which worked fine as expected.

I went ahead and replaced it and without bleeding tested the car started with the clutch pedal down, which it did.

I then fully bled it up and then now it won't start due to the push clutch to start message.

If I open the bleed valve and press the pedal to the floor, all good it starts. With the system fully bled, it won't start at all.

It's running a new clutch (sachs) that was installed by a garage a few months ago.

What am I missing?!
 
Ps, the old master cylinder after inspection has disintegrated, loads of plastic bits fell out into the return line, which I've cleared. The fluid is super clean and clear as it bleeds from the slave.
 
Yeah there's three position sensors actually, hall sensors.

I've read that it's a crap design and made worse when using aftermarket clutches.

The question is, how do I fix it if the clutch is new, master cylinder is new sensor works and clutch bled.

I've read people sleave and extend but surely there is a way of using an aftermarket clutch kit without bodging stuff either mechanically or electrically. Otherwise, how can companies like sachs sell them?!

Fit a sachs slave too?!

Confused...
 
I've now also installed as a punt the H revision master cylinder and pressure bled the clutch.

I still can't start the car as it thinks the clutch is up...

If I undo the bleed valve on the slave and press the lifeless clutch to the floor, it allows the pedal to travel further to the floor and the car starts fine. However when the bleed is closed, the travel of the pedal is reduced slightly and the car won't start.
 
@CagaA4, how did you resolve this finally, I'm having trouble starting my 2011 S4, I'm sure that you know now that pressing the clutch pedal down fully while there is air in the hydraulic line is allowing the hall effect switches to be enabled and so allow the engine to be started. While trying that with the hydraulic line fully bled ends up with the clutch slave cylinder reaching its physical end stop which is before the clutch master cylinder piston has managed to reach its correct end position - by which time it would have been able to enable the 3 switches and so enable engine starting.
 
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There is a widely reported issue on audizine with aftermarket clutches on the b8 platform where the auto adjust mechanism doesn't work as well as a standard clutch leading to the push to start issue. I have the same issue at the moment when you really have to push the pedal into the floor to get the car to start, the recommended fix over there is a longer clutch rod and there is a guy that sells them.

I just bought a used clutch slave cylinder from ebay for £20, I've taken the rod out and cut it in half, put it through a 6mm die and used a threaded sleeve to rejoin it (with lots of locktite) and now just need to fit it to the car, the bonus is only the rod needs to be changed so I don't even need to bleed it after. All it needs is 7mm extension to work apparently.
 
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Yes I think that I've revisited everything written on this, good to see that you threaded the rod and used a threaded joining piece to achieve the extra 4 > 6mm extra length. Strange but true, up until this evening I was considering becoming a good enough electric welder, and fabricate a sleeve and weld the rods into it - until tonight in my bath(!) I thought about doing what you have described.
I know that the guys across the pond use 1/4" which is just over 6mm, I was going to play safe and stick with 4mm>6mm and if necessary remove the rod and readjust it or swop with another one held as spare without any Loctite - if I sensed this was about to happen again.

Unfortunately, my S4 is in a local VW Group Indie getting its engine mountings replaced as the RHS one is leaking, I did ask them which brand of engine mountings they were going to fit as I had considered the 034motorsport solid ones, they said probably Lemforder and I replied that that was not an option for S4 - and I might have been dismissed, anyway, car went in Tuesday morning 07:30, I phoned them at 17:30, it now seems that they have found I was right wrt available correct engine mounts for S4, so it is still in the workshop! I only started getting "proper" stroppy about not being able to enable the starter the day before I handed it in - oh joy! If I'm being honest this has been a 1 in 10 engine starts for a couple of years or more - and I chose to ignore it and think it was just due to me wearing different shoes! If it ends up getting Audi engine mountings fitted that will hurt my wallet a lot, but if it needs that it gets that.
I'm going to just buy a new Febi clutch slave cylinder as I'd reckon that that current one will be nearly bust by the time I get it back and in my garage!

Thanks for suggesting/confirming threading and adjusting to size as an option, I hope it works fine for you!

Edit:- if I'm being honest, I don't mind swopping cylinders as I've never ever changed the fluid in the clutch fluid lines!

Another edit:- I just wonder if VW Group ever changed the length of this push rod when they evolved this slave cylinder through its life time, another reason for buying a new cylinder, I'll report after things come together!
 
It only seems to be an issue with aftermarket clutches - mine is a sachs 15% uprated one. Don't forget that the clutch shares fluid with the braking system so if that has been changed (it should have been at some point in the cars lifespan) then the clutch fluid by default will have been done too.

having had a nightmare with bleeding a BMW clutch slave cylinder I would do everything I could to not have to bleed the Audi one!
 
Oh don't worry about the brake fluid in my S4, it gets replaced by me every 2 years, same on all our other cars in the family, just the clutch that I've not bothered with due to them typically having a plastic cylinder assembly and a plastic bleed valve.

I agree that this issue will hit most people that fit uprated clutches, but it does affect all cars with Audi clutches, eventually, due I think, to the auto adjust on the clutch cover stopping adjusting, the release arm settling/partially collapsing and the release arm pivot changing shape a bit.

I was chatting to one of the owners of my local VW Group Indie today and it seems that most people just tack a blob of welding rod onto one end of the slave push rod.

I've ordered in a new correct model Febi slave cylinder via an ebay trader and so got 20% off with the current deals, so I'll see how it compares in length with the one in my car when that arrives.

Edit:- unfortunately I was asked if I could take my car back as Audi has let them down with delivery of the correct engine mountings for B8 S4! They will get back in touch with me when these mountings that are currently on back order with no fixed date of clearing that, are back in stock in the parts warehouse in UK!
 
@Simon, I've bought threaded sleeves and also a couple of different lengths of high tensile steel grub screws, I plan to use the grub screws as a "space filler" within the threaded sleeve - so if I just use Loctite instead of welding the rod<>sleeve ends, then as the threads in both cut parts of the push rod will be tightened and so there will be less clearance between the male and female threads, the Loctite will be able to set hard enough to provide a locking function - if you have just loosely screwed the rod parts into the threaded sleeve while covering them with Loctite then I'd doubt if the Loctite will ever set/harden enough to stop any further movement of these 2 push rod parts.

I'm just, as usual, going for overkill as I want this mod to work - and I've got plenty time as I'm waiting for threaded sleeves, grub screws and new slave cylinder to arrive - and my S4 continues to sleep in my garage!
 
I've got some low temp "Alumiweld" rod to put in mine to basically do exactly what you are talking about for the same reasons, I did think about dropping a ball bearing or two in there as an alternative.
 
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I completed mod’ng the pushrod from the new Febi or maybe the Sachs slave cylinder, I used an M7 round threaded sleeve, 20mm or 25mm long and a suitable length M7 grub screw, ending up with a length increase of 5.5mm in the slave cylinder pushrod.
It took until the week before Christmas for Audi in Germany to replenish their stocks of the “AE” version of engine mounting, so along with an extra 2 days for my workshop to source a special tool needed, I only got my car back on Thursday!
@Simon, did you change your pushrod yet?
 
I haven't actually it is still sat on my desk waiting for some warmer weather to get under the car and fit it.
 
for the record I am not changing my slave cylinder I am just changing the rod, has it fixed your issue?
 
For various reasons, detailed on my postings to the "engine mountings" thread, I have not yet been under my car, plus in the few times that I've driven this car since I first posted about this "press clutch to start" issue, I've not had any repeat of not starting, but, once I've fitted the new bolts to the subframe and lower brace and steering column, I will look into this.

I have a new Sachs slave cylinder with the extended push rod in the boot - just in case, but I'll remove the existing original push rod, measure it and probably fit the extended one if the original push rod is the same length as the new one was originally. Maybe, just maybe, after doing that, I'll consider fitting an adjustable clutch pedal stop to protect the slave cylinder.

I'll probably even push some fluid out of the slave cylinder as it has never been done since the car was new, the rest of the fluid can wait until the warmer weather as it is due this year.
 
isn't the clutch fluid on the same circuit as the brakes?
Oh yes, but other than slight movement/mixing between the clutch circuit, or "leg" and the brake circuit "legs" , the fluid in the clutch circuit or "leg" will just stay in there along with any particles of rubber from the primary and secondary clutch cylinder seals, so it is always a good plan to "dump" some fluid out of that circuit or "leg" as well as each of the brake circuit "legs". When you change the brake fluid you "dump" fluid out of each of the callipers in turn, then you should really do the same at the clutch secondary cylinder fluid valve.
 
Oh yes, that was one way to solve this issue, I just took the DIYer route and made up an adjustable push rod - actually a lot like clutch push rods used to be maybe 30 or 40 years ago. This Audi/Porsche way of having a "smart" primary clutch cylinder has ended up being just too smart for their owners, good for the workshops though.
 
This is the exact same solution as myself and Rum4mo have done, the guy started out by having the problem himself and then finding and selling the solution on Audizine.

If the price had been reasonable I would have just bought it from him, but $140 vs £3 for the hardware and some time I went the DIY route.
 
Just for an update I finally got around to fitting the extended rod a few weeks ago - has transformed the clutch feel and starting the car is easy again.
 
Good stuff, I'm afraid my modified pushrod is still waiting - in the boot, as expected, the warmer weather kind of removes this issue, but I really should get the original pushrod out, measure it and fit the modified one in its place.

I've been trying to find out when the "okay to start" clutch pedal position "starts" in my wife's 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI - and the pedal is down near the floor on that car, but probably due to the Polo having a raised foot rest I've never ended up getting a "press clutch pedal" warning or failure to start with that Polo. The A4/S4 B8 only has a very low foot rest so it is a lot easier to, when wearing "different" shoes, to end up fouling the edge of the foot rest and so ending up with a failure to start.

I should not end up avoiding changing to this slightly longer pushrod as it might come back to haunt me in the colder weather!
 
Well, almost one year later, I've still not changed anything, but a couple of "trouble" to enable engine starting this past winter has made me more determined to try to sort this out - luckily we have 2 cars and so I've been getting concerned about taking my car on long trip this past winter, really in case I end up not being able to get it started in cold weather.

Firstly @Simon , I've read that the official or original clutch slave cylinder has a "retained" or "captive" push rod, so it is not possible to just swop push rods - does this tie in with what you found when you swopped your push rods over?

Next, I felt the need to quantify this issue by finding the location in the ENGINE controller, where these 2 sensors outputs get enabled, and to physically measure the points in the clutch pedal movement arc where these sensor outputs change or get enabled, and also just how much clutch pedal movement is left - ie is spare, after that point has been reached.

So, I bought a cheap 1000mm aluminium measuring rule, found it was a bit flexible and so prone to giving erratic readings, so I taped a length of plywood offcut to it to keep it stiff. Next I bought a cheap silicon cooking splash guard from TKMAX, I chose this as it just spans the steering wheel rim and has 2 lifting lugs on its outer steel frame and so can be firmly secured to the steering wheel rim using a couple of Velcro straps, the actual silicon membrane has enough "give" to allow it to deflect up enough to clear the centre boss of the steering wheel, I cut a small slot in its membrane to allow the measuring rule to pass up through it - and used the taut silicon membrane as a reference surface for taking readings.

I first tried this on my wife's 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI really just to get an idea of how a good working system or car measurements look like, then tried it on my Feb 2011 B8 S4, if anything, the "spare clutch pedal movement" beyond the "ENGINE START ENABLE" point is more on the Audi S4 even scaling the readings for the Polo's shorter clutch pedal "span" still left the measurement taken on the S4 being more ie better, than on the 2015 Polo - which was not what I had expected. Ambient temperature was maybe 8C when I made my first set of readings.

Anyway, I'll probably try swopping push rods or even fitting a new Sachs slave cylinder (over time I felt the need to buy a second or back up clutch slave cylinder, just in case I messed up the first push rod modification - and Audi used Sachs clutch slave cylinders in the factory, and then take a full set of measurements which are:- clutch fully up position, first sensor enabled position, second sensor enabled position and clutch pedal fully down position. Really my only reason for still doing this is to attempt to never ever end up with the clutch slave cylinder piston hard against the C-clip on the end of it.

As my car is still low mileage and has its factory fitted clutch fitted, after carrying out my measuring of the clutch pedal movements, I getting round to thinking that my own issue is really more down to the shape of the floor area below the clutch pedal than an actual failure of the clutch master cylinder piston to reach the final sensor in its bore due to the slave cylinder piston already reaching the end of its cylinder - ie the C-clip at the end. That along with wearing thicker soled shoes in winter so not being able to feel and work round the footrest, aided by the knowledge that this can be an issue with these cars that have bigger engines, quattro and manual gearboxes!

Hopefully I'll get round to swopping the push rods or complete slave cylinders soon!
 
The push rod was just that a rod with a ball at each end, easy to pull out and push the new one in. What I did was buy a second hand cylinder cut and extended that rod and then just got it swapped over when the car was up in the air for a brake change. It has been utterly faultless since
 
Thanks for confirming that, I only asked as I had read that the original VW Group slave cylinder had a retained push rod that stopped you doing as you described.

It did make sense at the time as sometimes the original assembly line items come a bit more "built up" to aid assembly at the factory, where as spares don't need to be.

I'm over thinking this hugely, just preparing to not be disappointed. I was thinking about swopping push rods and seeing how it goes - along with repeating taking measurements - changing the push rod length if necessary, and then removing the extended push rod and brazing up both ends of the threaded joining sleeve, but maybe the blue Loctite, now that it has been curing for maybe 12 months or more, is safe enough to be trusted to lock the 2 pieces of the push rod to the threaded sleeve.
 
Honestly you are way overthinking this. Stick your new rod in, if it doesn’t solve anything put the original back
 
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I've still got to change the clutch pushrods over, but, in the mean time, just for my own interests/satisfaction, I bought an extra Febi clutch slave cylinder and modified it as a "test piece", what I did was to attack the cylinder with an angle grinder so that there was a long slot cut right through the slave cylinder, then I pressed the push rod into it fully until the piston was right back at the closed end of the bore or at least it could not be pressed further back in, I marked where the outer end/edge of the piston was in that "situation" then fitted stick on metric scale to the side of the cylinder. Then pulled the original Audi clutch slave cylinder out, moved its pushrod onto this new Febi slave cylinder, and fitted this Febi cylinder with its "cutaway" into the bellhousing, really just to record how far down the bore the piston was when the clutch pedal was in its "up" position. Turned out the piston was roughly midway along its bore - taking "jammed up at the closed end" and "hitting the C-clip at the open end" as the two end points of travel. So fitting the lengthened pushrod will certainly, in my car, not cause any issues.

I just thought that doing that would be "interesting" as I'm a retired test engineer, I couldn't just fit a lengthened pushrod and hope that all would be well, not the way I tend to do things.

So, from my messing about, the total possible travel of the piston in the clutch slave cylinder is roughly 80mm, prior to me fitting the lengthen pushrod, the piston is resting at roughly the mid position, ie 40mm from the inner end stop. I'd think that the rated total travel will be a lot less, more like 50 or 60mm, so it looks like these cars can end up with their slave cylinder pistons far too far or further down than expected, when the clutch is fully engaged.

I'm just adding all this in this thread just in case it is of interest to anyone, remember that I've already measured the "available remaining" clutch pedal movement after "start enabled" - which might be getting limited by the C-clip on the end of the clutch slave cylinder, so adding 5 or 6mm will improve that.
 
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This is really interesting but way more effort than just fitting the longer rod!
 
Well, as I probably said, I'm a retired test engineer and really "configured" to find out what is happening and how things are now, before making changes.
I've now applied a "bonding sleeve" of Araldite Steel around the tapered ends of the sleeves and the exposed threads on the rod, really just a belt and braces to make the threaded sections less prone to unscrewing though how it would want to do that as the "composite" rod assembly will always be in compression or slight compression. If I could still get the slave cylinder plastic end off, I would have just brazed both ends, but the plastic end is not for coming off now.

The final thing that I was needing to know was "where exactly the sleeve would be" at all times at the natural position, ie clutch pedal up and the fully down position and all positions between the two, ie would the bigger diameter of the threaded sleeve ever get near the end of the slave cylinder or even end up inside it. I now know that due to where I cut the rod, the joining sleeve will always be clear of the end of the slave cylinder.

I'm very very close to fitting this extended push rod, just replaced all the front suspension arms and wheel bearings, car goes in for an alignment check/adjust, then it will get used on a 300 mile trip, so after getting back, and completing service jobs on my wife's 2015 Polo, I'll probably swop the push rods over before winter closes in.