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400+whp Checklist

S.Pellegrino Jan 3, 2021

  1. S.Pellegrino

    S.Pellegrino Member

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    Goodmorning Chaps
    I have plans for BT and collected this list, Appreciate if some guys could go over the list and see what you think about it!

    • Garrett G25-550 normal orientation .72 A/R rating
    • Stainless Steel tubular exhaust manifold with external wastegate and V-band flange
    • 3 inch downpipe, V-band flange
    • Screamer pipe for wastegate (still unsure whether or not to have pipe go back into downpipe, will have to see about clearance issues)
    • 2.5 inch Non Resonated Catback
    • Sachs G60 15lbs Single Mass Flywheel
    • Sachs VR6 Clutch Pressure Plate
    • Sachs VR6 Clutch Disk
    • Sachs Release Bearing
    • 44mm Turbosmart External Wastegate
    • Braided oil and coolant lines with AN fittings
    • Forged Piston Rods
    • Forged Piston heads ? (I see some threads about people upgrading Piston heads and some people using the Stock OEM Mahle Forged ones that come from the factory? Any advice?)
    • Rod Bearings
    • Piston Rings
    • Supertech Exhaust Valves (standard size - 3 groove)
    • Supertech Intake Valves (standard size - 3 groove)
    • Supertech Valve Spring & Retainer Valvetrain kit
    • Crank Thrust Washers ? (Do I need this? Aint sure...)
    • ARP Connecting Rods Bolt kit
    • ARP Head Bolts/Stud kit (10mm for 2000+ cars)
    • ARP Main Stud kit
    • ARP Crank Bolt
    • ARP Camshaft Bolt
    • Fluidampr Crank Pulley ? (worth the extra money? Been reading some mixed reviews about it)
    • Steel Billet Crank gear
    • Integrated Engineering Adjustable Cam Pulley ? (Worth it?)
    • Deatschwerks DW65 Fuel Pump
    • 1000CC injectors ? (is 1000CC overkill for 400whp? Is 750 enough? or even 630cc?)
    • 4 Bar FPR ? (I suppose 4 Bar would supply more fuel so I could run a lower cc rated injectors? correct?)
    • Tial Blow Off Valve
    • Big Front Mount Intercooler with 2.5 inch (63mm) Inlet/Outlet ? (Should I go 2.5 inch Intercooler Piping or 2.0 inch?)
    • Stock Throttle Body
    • Stock Intake Manifold ?
    • Stock Small Port head
    • Stock Crankshaft
    • Stock Camshafts
    • AEM Water/Meth Kit Dual nozzle setup (After throttle body and just after Intercooler)
    • New OEM Oil Pump
    • Water pump with metal propeller
    • Elring Gasket Kit
    • Rear Main Seal
    • Standalone ECU

    Thats the list I managed to scrape together, your opinions? The parts with a ''?'' is what I am not sure about (Piston Heads, Crank Thrust Washers, Fluidampr Crank Pulley, IE Cam Pulley, 1000cc injectors, 4bar FPR, Stock intake manifold). I plan to go Mafless. Don't want to go BIG power as I don't fancy grenading my tranny every 500kms.

    Cheers guys
    S.Pellegrino
     
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  3. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+

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    * Garrett G25-550 normal orientation .72 A/R rating (Yes)

    * Stainless Steel tubular exhaust manifold with external wastegate and V-band flange (Yes)

    * 3 inch downpipe, V-band flange (Yes)

    * Screamer pipe for wastegate (still unsure whether or not to have pipe go back into downpipe, will have to see about clearance issues) (Pipe back into downpipe)

    * 2.5 inch Non Resonated Catback (Go 3”)

    * Sachs G60 15lbs Single Mass Flywheel (Luk dual mass flywheel)

    * Sachs VR6 Clutch Pressure Plate (Luk Pressure plate)

    * Sachs VR6 Clutch Disk (Sachs 4 Puk Clutch)

    * Sachs Release Bearing (Yes)

    * 44mm Turbosmart External Wastegate (Yes)

    * Braided oil and coolant lines with AN fittings (Yes)

    * Forged Piston Rods (Hurricane I Beams)

    * Forged Piston heads ? (I see some threads about people upgrading Piston heads and some people using the Stock OEM Mahle Forged ones that come from the factory? Any advice?) (Stock pistons are good for up to 500bhp)

    * Rod Bearings (Comes With Hurricane I Beam Rods)

    * Piston Rings (Yes)

    * Supertech Exhaust Valves (standard size - 3 groove) (Yes)

    * Supertech Intake Valves (standard size - 3 groove) (Yes)

    * Supertech Valve Spring & Retainer Valvetrain kit (Yes)

    * Crank Thrust Washers ? (Do I need this? Aint sure...) (Yes)

    * ARP Connecting Rods Bolt kit (Comes with Hurricane I Beam Rods)

    * ARP Head Bolts/Stud kit (10mm for 2000+ cars) (Yes)

    * ARP Main Stud kit (Yes)

    * ARP Crank Bolt (Yes)

    * ARP Camshaft Bolt (Yes)

    * Fluidampr Crank Pulley ? (worth the extra money? Been reading some mixed reviews about it) (I’m running this on my G30-770 build and many others have used this on there big turbo builds, worth it. Yes)

    * Steel Billet Crank gear (Yes)

    * Integrated Engineering Adjustable Cam Pulley ? (Worth it?) (Depends if you are planning on running different from stock cans)

    * Deatschwerks DW65 Fuel Pump (Yes)

    * 1000CC injectors ? (is 1000CC overkill for 400whp? Is 750 enough? or even 630cc?) (1000cc Bosch)

    * 4 Bar FPR ? (I suppose 4 Bar would supply more fuel so I could run a lower cc rated injectors? correct?) (4 Bar will allow you more head room)

    * Tial Blow Off Valve (Yes)

    * Big Front Mount Intercooler with 2.5 inch (63mm) Inlet/Outlet ? (Should I go 2.5 inch Intercooler Piping or 2.0 inch?) (Go Toyo Type B intercooler, it’s what the majority use and it’s cheap)

    * Stock Throttle Body (Yes)

    * Stock Intake Manifold ? (Yes)

    * Stock Small Port head (Yes)

    * Stock Crankshaft (Yes)

    * AEM Water/Meth Kit Dual nozzle setup (After throttle body and just after Intercooler) (Yes, well worth it)

    * New OEM Oil Pump (Yes)

    * Water pump with metal propeller (Don’t use metal propellor, they tend to leak, use OEM plastic)

    * Elring Gasket Kit (Yes)

    * Rear Main Seal (Yes)

    * Standalone ECU (Ignitron ECU all the way)

    Hope that’s helped a little bud.

    You can get all this stuff from Badger5 they can also advise you on all and any of this stuff.

    https://badger5.co.uk/
     
  4. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    Use single groove supertechs if going full supertech valve train

    As you are building a 'new' engine then it would be a false economy not to rebore the block and replace the pistons... in which case use JE or CP... max rebore of 82.5mm will allow you to retain the stock head gasket... max of 83mm requires a modded/specialised gasket.... personally stick to 82mm max as there is not much benefit in the capacity increase in context and you retain wall thickness in the bores for reliability and can use std headgaskets...

    Use a CR of 9.25:1

    <tuffty/>
     
    Brad1011 and S.Pellegrino like this.
  5. S.Pellegrino

    S.Pellegrino Member

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    Thanks for the input guys. I am planning to get majority of my things from Badger 5, I was actually thinking of just buying their prebuilt engines so I wouldn't have to clown about like I currently am lol. But I figured it would be cheaper (to an extent) to do it myself and some help from my local tuner.

    @Tuffty, been reading your ''my minor modding thread'' lately, am on page 47 when it was still a 1.8T! Am using kind of as an ''example'' since you got close to 400whp WITHOUT WMI iirc. Any differences between single/triple groove valves? I read that Single Groove can hold more HP but some say Triple Groove is good for up to 500whp. Badger 5 seems to have only Triple in stock.

    I'll have to replace my pistons anyway. Silly me just realised I have 19mm Rods in me car and to buy 20mm Rods I need ''20mm'' piston heads (which I don't have) so I'll have to get Pistons anyway.
    I am thinking of sticking stock bore of 81mm since it's cheaper and I don't think there are any shops near me who can rebore a block. If I get the block honed will I need 81.5mm bore? or just the stock 81mm? Can't wrap my head around it.

    @S3AMJ, thanks for the ''checklist''. Been going over your belated build thread lately and also using it as a guideline. It's helpful in a way seeing builds done no more than 3 years old as some of the info can be outdated (like on VWVortex where some threads are over a decade and half old)
     
  6. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+

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    Your welcome dude, I’ve used others build threads as a reference in the past, nice to help the community best we can. I’d recommend you did the same, sounds like your planning a nice build.

    Like Tuffty mentioned, if you could stretch your budget to getting the block bored out to essentially make your engine a 1.9 that’ll help liven up the G25-550 some more! But it also adds the benefit of the engine being all in nice “happy” tolerances.

    In my experience, build the engine to be over engineered if you can. Change the pistons, which you’ll need to do now you’ve mentioned yours are currently 19mm. At least if you ever decide to want more power, you don’t need to pull the engine out again.

    Your checklist is pretty compete, the only other thing to mention is the fuel pump. The DW65 is ok.... it’s what I’m currently using, but will be having an additional 044 Bosch external fuel pump, which is going to do all the hard work. The DW65 will act more as a lift pump.


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  7. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    I have just rebuilt my TT 1.8T for the second time after a Wossner piston failed. There is a build thread linked in my signature.You have a very comprehensive expensive list. You don't need to change the inlet valves, standard ones are fine. Yes change exhaust valves I have supertech inconel valves but use stock three groove collets and uprated Rosten springs. These are all you need for 7800-8K max rpm.
    You really need to bore the block to a larger size, after several years and many thousands of miles the bore is not going to be truly staight and true, and fitting new pistons requires the bore to be honed.
    Going to the top bore 82.5mm gives you 1870cc instead of stock 1780cc . So 5% more cylinder volume pretty much gives you 5% more power that's 20bhp at 400bhp.
    I went with Hurricane rods and JE 9.25-1 pistons from Badger 5, A good strong setup. ACL race bearings , IStock 2.0 TFSI main bolts , these are upgraded over the stock 1.8T items and a lot cheaper than ARP . Stock Elring head bolts and Elring head gasket set. Yes I need to replace the head bolts if I remove the head but they only cost £30 a set.
    You need a 3 inch exhaust system.
    Bosch 1000cc injectors are cheap and work really well. Idle like stock. DW65 not a great choise, it will probabaly work for a while but will be at it's limit and is liable to fail.
    Stock DMF, pressure plate and Sachs 4 puck is the best solution for the clutch, a well proven set up that bdoesn't rattle and gives you really quick easy gearchanges.
     
  8. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    Pretty sure the OP has an 02J box... std DMF+Sachs is more for 02m boxes... fairly sure the 02J doesn't rattle like an 02M does on a solid FW

    <tuffty/>
     
  9. S.Pellegrino

    S.Pellegrino Member

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    I got lucky with some stock market investments and am putting some money aside for the BT build. Because what else would a 20 year old do who has money and is into cars? It is an long extensive expensive list. I am looking for places to cut corners (but don't want to cut too many corners because that could spell out D-I-S-A-S-T-E-R).

    @desertstorm, just spent the past hour going over your thread. Excellent read, easy on the eyes! Read that another member had stated that ''I fear you will live to regret that decision in time if I'm honest.'' on using stock bore. I did read on VWVortex that the head is good for 500WHP after you upgrade the exhaust valves (as they decide to go POOF at high heat and RPM and Power). So I put on the list Inlet valves too (as its only an extra 275 quid so why not) as I'm not planning on revving to 9k rpm.
    I am eyeing the JE Pistons actually but theres a lack of info on the Badger5 website.... :(

    @S3AMJ, When you stated ''But it also adds the benefit of the engine being all in nice “happy” tolerances.'' Is that like saying stock displacement would be a bit of an restriction for the G25-550? Would the engine feel ''happier and more at home'' with a teeny bit bigger bore?

    Yes, car is the 02J transmission 5 speed. Car is the Audi A3 1.8T 150hp. Basic basic car lol. The higher HP models, such as the BAM engined S3 go for 10 grand where I live (Spain) and that's no option for an 18 year old.

    About boring out the block (I always get confused with displacement and bore and stuff etc.) Stock bore is 81mm. So if I upgrade to say 82mm, Would I need to bore out my block an extra 1mm? (same with 82.5mm bore, would I have to bore out my block an extra 1.5mm?)
     
  10. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+

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    @S3AMJ, When you stated ''But it also adds the benefit of the engine being all in nice “happy” tolerances.'' Is that like saying stock displacement would be a bit of an restriction for the G25-550? Would the engine feel ''happier and more at home'' with a teeny bit bigger bore?

    I was referring to like what the others mentioned with an old engine, things get a bit...... loose, out of shape and so on. Having the block bored will eliminate that and it’ll run more harmoniously. A bigger displacement will no doubt help the G25-550 spool more eagerly. By no means will it restrict the G25-550 though.


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  11. S.Pellegrino

    S.Pellegrino Member

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    What are you guys running to control boost? I was thinking of popping in the Forge Unos Manual Boost controller. Does Ignitron have an electronic boost controller? Yikes
     
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  13. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+

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    I believe Badger5 are now using a (MAC 3 port boost solenoid) with Ignitron.


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  14. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    Ignitron will handle boost control... you need to do some reading dude...

    <tuffty/>
     
  15. S.Pellegrino

    S.Pellegrino Member

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    No doubt in that

    BOOST CONTROL
    • Up to 4 real time switchable boost maps (12x8) for two different fuels (flexible fuel support)
    • Open loop or closed loop control (PID controller with programmable integrator limits)
    • Requested boost limits depending on intake air temperature, engine coolant temperature, exhaust gas temperature, vehicle speed signal
    • Gear selective boost control
    • Turbo bypass solenoid ("N249") support
    Just read this on Ignitrons website, guess that answers my question....
     
  16. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Registered User Bronze Supporter Silver Supporter VCDS Map User

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    Yeah I ordered the turbosmart and was sent a partial refund and the Mac one next day delivery aswell
     
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  17. S.Pellegrino

    S.Pellegrino Member

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    I've given it a couple days thought. May have to cut some corners/budget it a little so I can get it down to making 300-350whp reliably and safe without breaking the bank.

    Was thinking of going Garrett GT3071R or GT3076R.

    Does anyone know where I could potentially source a Garrett Gt3071R with an EXTERNAL wastegate with a T3 flange for a reasonable price? I find the GT3071R no problem but they all have internal wastegates which I'm not looking for. Old build threads on VWVortex have the GT3071R with external wastegates but since these turbos are getting old they are also getting harder to source.

    Even having some trouble with the GT3076R.

    Any input?
    Cheers guys
    S.Pellegrino
     
  18. Brad1011

    Brad1011 Registered User

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    Buy a k04 hybrid from badger and perhaps contact them to source a manifold and port it for you not expensive 3inch down pipe from pipewerx on eBay you’re not spending extra money on Downpipe being fabricated then what car is it for ?


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  19. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Registered User Bronze Supporter Silver Supporter VCDS Map User

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    If aiming for 350 Go for the badger hybrid will get you from 350-400 and will be a lot cheaper
     
  20. hydro s3

    hydro s3 S3 amk

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    I've got that badger 5 k04-380 hybrid on mine and made 401hp.
    Obviously you will still have to do some engine internals to support the hybrid but wont be as expensive as a big turbo build.
     
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  21. S.Pellegrino

    S.Pellegrino Member

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    I will be fabricating it myself. Well more like having a friend show me how to mock up a downpipe and weld etc. He will be helping me. Car is just a standard A3 1.8T 150hp. Didn't fancy spending 3 times the money for an S3 as they're nearly identical.

    That K04 hybrid, do you guys like it? Or love it? How does it drive? Any downsides, Anything youd want to change on them?

    I've been eyeballing it actually but I don't know if it would fit in a non ko4 car. I assume I would need a different downpipe as the hotside flange is a 3 bolt side exit opposed to the 4 bolt straight out the back exit like on the ko3s.

    I would also need to source a manifold as Mr. Badger doesn't sell them chinafolds no more, I've actually come across a few manifolds on FleaBay that are tubular for the KO4 and KO3. I suppose I could slap on water/meth to get that extra HP to reach the 400 club.

    Those who do run the hybrid, what system management you using? Ignitron or the stock ECU? I've read somewhere that the stock is ECU is good for stage 2 but above that some tuners may run into issues but I don't know how true that is.

    What about boost control? Stock N75 sufficient enough or some guys using MBC?

    I seriously do wonder if the the TIP would fit that they supply with hybrid turbo. ITS HUGE. I already had problems fitting my Forge TIP because of the blasted coolant pipe that runs right next to it to the heatcore. I suppose I could chop off the metal pipe, bend it and reroute it so that it won't slam into the TIP.

    Opinions welcome!
    Cheers
    S.Pellegrino
     
  22. Brad1011

    Brad1011 Registered User

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    Personally if I was you,
    get a genuine k04 turbo from somewhere like turbo zentrum
    Get a decat and 3inch downpipe from pipewerx
    Toyosport front mount intercooler and get it mapped to 260/270 bhp and see how much fun you will have with that in a front wheel drive car that weighs 1100kg it will be plenty fast enough and save your money, the s3 is 1450kg if you was to forge your engine and get more power than that you’re then looking at a £1000 clutch plus a £8/900 LSD to try keep the power down in a front wheel drive car and thats on top of what you’ll already spend


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  23. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+

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    I’ve run the Badger5 K04-380 hybrid set up with meth for a couple years, brilliant turbo. It comes with there “Larger” TIP. However your in Spain, so I’m guessing your LHD. So you’ll potentially run into fitting issues with the TIP up against your brake master cylinder.

    If you build the car to run that hybrid setup.... it wouldn’t take much more to run a G25-550 at a lesser level. Bigger injectors, manifold, wastegate, downpipe, turbo. All the things you’d be buying for the hybrid. You’d probably end up spending an extra £1200-£1500 but have a closer power figure to your original plan. Standard pistons are ok(ish) to 500bhp.

    Later down the line when you’ve collected the additional parts to take the turbo to its max levels then your already over half way there.

    I ran my hybrid on both the stock ECU and ignitron. Ignitron is better, just because. That said the car ran fine on the stock ECU.

    The Stock N75 is fine for a hybrid, MAC 3 port for the bigger turbo.


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