Facelift DSG DQ381 Torque Capacity

[ASRman]

Does anybody know the torque capacity of the 7 Speed DSG box found in the facelift S3s and 7.5 Golf Rs?

Running a high torque Stage 1 map on my FL S3 (with no DSG tune) and has been fine up until now the weather has become cooler and the car feels quicker in the low gears but once it gets into 4th and 5th gear can feel a slight loss of power as if the TCU is limiting torque/boost/power. No DSG slip or hesitation can be felt.

Any ideas?

 

[Lehn]

The stated max torque is 420Nm but based on several peoples experience it should be good for 500Nm without a TCU tune. Normally a stage 1 tune doesn't need a TCU flash. But the 4-pot engine in the S3 feels like it's loosing power in the higher gears but that's just the nature of a pumped up 4-pot rather than a similar (power-wise) 6-pot with a lower turbo boost.

One question though, have you unplugged your exhaust valves? People doing this have seen a slight drop of power in the higher revs and maybe this is easier felt in 4th and 5th gear than in the other gears. (Just a thought)

 

[ASRman]

The stated max torque is 420Nm but based on several peoples experience it should be good for 500Nm without a TCU tune. Normally a stage 1 tune doesn't need a TCU flash. But the 4-pot engine in the S3 feels like it's loosing power in the higher gears but that's just the nature of a pumped up 4-pot rather than a similar (power-wise) 6-pot with a lower turbo boost.

One question though, have you unplugged your exhaust valves? People doing this have seen a slight drop of power in the higher revs and maybe this is easier felt in 4th and 5th gear than in the other gears. (Just a thought)

Exhaust valves deactivated via OBDeleven but I don't think it's this for the following reason:

1. Only noticed this behaviour recently with the outside temperature dropping .

2. Power restriction more obvious on inclines leading me to believe it is transmission related.

 

[kalniel]

Is the effect worse than before the remap? A gearbox is a torque converter. The higher the gear, the lower the torque at the wheels, which combined with increased drag at higher speeds means higher gears will always feel like you have less power.

 

[Lehn]

Exhaust valves deactivated via OBDeleven but I don't think it's this for the following reason:

1. Only noticed this behaviour recently with the outside temperature dropping .

2. Power restriction more obvious on inclines leading me to believe it is transmission related.

Also I don't think it's a proplem when they're coded out instead of just unplugged, but I may be wrong (I sure didn't notice any difference when I coded mine out).

But the nature of the problem is very odd because there's a build in torque limiter in 1st, 2nd and 3rd where 4th and upwards are not limited but it's here you're experiencing the problems. I hope someone else can provide you with more helpful answers

 

[ASRman]

Is the effect worse than before the remap? A gearbox is a torque converter. The higher the gear, the lower the torque at the wheels, which combined with increased drag at higher speeds means higher gears will always feel like you have less power.

The effect was not noticeable when first remapped not stock and also not noticeable for around a month. Only now there has been a sharp decrease in outside temperature I have noticed the car is generally pulling harder but unfortunately in gear 5 restricting boost/power/torque.

No fault codes shown. Also it is more noticeable in S mode rather than Manual. If the standard torque limit is 420ft lbs I think I could be getting very close to that or exceeding in some situations.

Also I don't think it's a proplem when they're coded out instead of just unplugged, but I may be wrong (I sure didn't notice any difference when I coded mine out).

But the nature of the problem is very odd because there's a build in torque limiter in 1st, 2nd and 3rd where 4th and upwards are not limited but it's here you're experiencing the problems. I hope someone else can provide you with more helpful answers

Thanks for your reply. I have read about torque limiters in the lower gears but I have also heard more boost is introduced in the higher gears which makes me think (but I am not sure) the DSG is restricting power in order to avoid severe slip. Almost like a failsafe mechanism

 

[ASRman]

Car did not exhibit any of the symptoms referred to yesterday on my drive this morning. Very strange behaviour indeed.

Booked in for a DSG Tune tomorrow morning so will update you all whether that will provide the fix. I am confident it will do.

 

[Forbzeeee]

Car did not exhibit any of the symptoms referred to yesterday on my drive this morning. Very strange behaviour indeed.

Booked in for a DSG Tune tomorrow morning so will update you all whether that will provide the fix. I am confident it will do.

I didn't think you'd need a DSG tune unless you go to Stage 2.

 

[ASRman]

I didn't think you'd need a DSG tune unless you go to Stage 2.

I was of the same opinion, apparently we are both possibly wrong.

Documented here and plenty of other threads with the DSG 7 Speed struggling with HO maps:

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42995&page=2

 

[NevMan]

Car did not exhibit any of the symptoms referred to yesterday on my drive this morning. Very strange behaviour indeed.

Booked in for a DSG Tune tomorrow morning so will update you all whether that will provide the fix. I am confident it will do.

Or you could try one of these @ABYSS can answer any questions

 

[Lehn]

I was of the same opinion, apparently we are both possibly wrong.

Documented here and plenty of other threads with the DSG 7 Speed struggling with HO maps:

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42995&page=2

Where in that thread do they say they have a common problem? I know one person had a problem but that can be due to low gearbox oil level etc. I've been looking into this the past year and from my point of view 95% doesn't have problems with the gearbox with a stage 1 tune, whereas 4% of the last 5% only have problems during launch control. This is my subjective view but I just don't think we should make a problem out of something that isn't.

But because of this I looked further into this and found below very useful information. What we can discuss after this is where in the powerband the 500Nm is and if the real problem is high torque at higher revs which only a gasolin engine can provide. AND if the Arteon TDI maybe has a "TCU map" from the factory which increases the stock clamping factor, but I don't think we'll ever know.

https://www.hoerbiger.com/upload/ebook/2017/motion/2/EN/index.html#47/z


And to confirm the above statement I visited Shells homepage for transmission oil for the Arteon TDI:

https://www.shell.com/motorist/find...xNDBrd19sb25nX2RyYWluX2FydGVvbl9FRnQ4UG5XTWo=


And since they talk about TVS engeineering in the thread you link to I used their site to confirm the 0GC transmission code from Shells homepage:

http://www.tvsengineering.nl/en/gearbox/dsg/dq381.html

 

[ASRman]

Where in that thread do they say they have a common problem? I know one person had a problem but that can be due to low gearbox oil level etc. I've been looking into this the past year and from my point of view 95% doesn't have problems with the gearbox with a stage 1 tune, whereas 4% of the last 5% only have problems during launch control. This is my subjective view but I just don't think we should make a problem out of something that isn't.

But because of this I looked further into this and found below very useful information. What we can discuss after this is where in the powerband the 500Nm is and if the real problem is high torque at higher revs which only a gasolin engine can provide. AND if the Arteon TDI maybe has a "TCU map" from the factory which increases the stock clamping factor, but I don't think we'll ever know.
View attachment 166246
https://www.hoerbiger.com/upload/ebook/2017/motion/2/EN/index.html#47/z


And to confirm the above statement I visited Shells homepage for transmission oil for the Arteon TDI:
View attachment 166244
https://www.shell.com/motorist/find...xNDBrd19sb25nX2RyYWluX2FydGVvbl9FRnQ4UG5XTWo=


And since they talk about TVS engeineering in the thread you link to I used their site to confirm the 0GC transmission code from Shells homepage:
View attachment 166245
http://www.tvsengineering.nl/en/gearbox/dsg/dq381.html

I did not say it was a common problem but simply referred to that thread as an illustration of another DQ381 car experiencing similar issues. Of course it is not a common problem, for starters there are probably not enough tuned facelift cars out there with stage 1 running high torque in order to make that assessment. The fact that APR and Revo are not yet even able to offer a DSG tune on the 7 Speed may suggest not as many are willing to risk going for HO on the 7 Speed without the option to tune the DSG also.

You are correct this is strange and I was not expecting to experience issues with the 7 Speed DSG until I hit around 430 ft lbs. With that said my car is very fast for stage 1 consistently hitting 11.5 quarter mile and 3.3 sec to 60 mph. These are figures being seen previously by stage 2 pre facelift cars which of course at that level of performance would have needed a DSG tune as mandatory .

The point I suppose I was trying to make moreso was that the TCU has in built torque limiters which restrict power as a failsafe in circumstances when it detects potential for slippage. This has been documented many times and it appears unsurprisingly that the DSG 7 runs into similar issues once a certain Torque parameter is exceeded.

 

[larsmate]

One question though, have you unplugged your exhaust valves? People doing this have seen a slight drop of power in the higher revs and maybe this is easier felt in 4th and 5th gear than in the other gears. (Just a thought)

What would be the technical reason for this? I would have thought freer flowing exhaust would be beneficial rather than a hindrance unless it's to do with lack of back pressure?

 

[oli356]

What would be the technical reason for this? I would have thought freer flowing exhaust would be beneficial rather than a hindrance unless it's to do with lack of back pressure?

@terminator x linked me to this thread recently https://www.audirs3oc.com/topic/7957-disconnection-of-exhaust-flaps/ he said that the ecu gets confused if the exhaust flaps are opened (and) there are error logs (when you just pull the cable from the valve motor it produces an error code). Though using a valve remote system or coding them open shouldn't produce errors so shouldn't see this problem.

At least that's what I understood..

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/exhaust-valves.378891/ from the last few posts

 

[Lehn]

I did not say it was a common problem but simply referred to that thread as an illustration of another DQ381 car experiencing similar issues. Of course it is not a common problem, for starters there are probably not enough tuned facelift cars out there with stage 1 running high torque in order to make that assessment. The fact that APR and Revo are not yet even able to offer a DSG tune on the 7 Speed may suggest not as many are willing to risk going for HO on the 7 Speed without the option to tune the DSG also.

You are correct this is strange and I was not expecting to experience issues with the 7 Speed DSG until I hit around 430 ft lbs. With that said my car is very fast for stage 1 consistently hitting 11.5 quarter mile and 3.3 sec to 60 mph. These are figures being seen previously by stage 2 pre facelift cars which of course at that level of performance would have needed a DSG tune as mandatory .

The point I suppose I was trying to make moreso was that the TCU has in built torque limiters which restrict power as a failsafe in circumstances when it detects potential for slippage. This has been documented many times and it appears unsurprisingly that the DSG 7 runs into similar issues once a certain Torque parameter is exceeded.

Sorry if I misunderstood you (and maybe sounded a bit harsh ). It seems like I completely overlooked how tuned your S3 is - 430 ft lbs. is like 580Nm??? Is that correct? 11.5sec for a quarter mile is crazy fast if you ask me without even talking about your 0-60 time.

This is just a hypothesis but maybe there is a soft torque limiter in 1st, 2nd and 3rd as I already talked about, which keeps your car below 430 ft lbs, but then when you shift to 4th and upwards you hit a "hard" limiter which is much less refined than how the ECU would limit the torque in the lover gears (But isn't it also something like this you're talking about?).

Do you have a dyno chart/sheet of your car? Just want to know where the torque hits in the power band.

 

[Lehn]

@terminator x linked me to this thread recently https://www.audirs3oc.com/topic/7957-disconnection-of-exhaust-flaps/ he said that the ecu gets confused if the exhaust flaps are opened (and) there are error logs (when you just pull the cable from the valve motor it produces an error code). Though using a valve remote system or coding them open shouldn't produce errors so shouldn't see this problem.

At least that's what I understood..

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/exhaust-valves.378891/ from the last few posts

Exactly what I have also read. And the fact that it produces and error code may be why the ECU cuts the power - some kind of safety feature maybe? Which confirms why others haven't seen this on dynos because they have coded the valves out using VCDS/OBDeleven which won't throw an error code.

But just to quote post #14 in the linkn that shows whats happening:

I can confirm this from my own experiences. Below is the dyno print out of two stock RS3 's, my car is the red line. It initially looked as if the exhaust disconnect had paid off until the rpm reached 5Krpm. The ECU then decided to pull power and I lost somewhere in the region of 70ps before the ECU finally capitulated and allowed the car to reach peak power. It's worth noting that I could not feel this happening on the road, in fact at lower rpm the car actually felt faster than stock (which is proven by the the initial power curve until it gets to 5000rpm)

https://www.audirs3oc.com/topic/7957-disconnection-of-exhaust-flaps/?p=135015

There is also this post here: https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/exhaust-valves.378891/#post-3316311

Can't say I've noticed anything at 5K RPM, albeit, not sure how often I'm at 5K RPM! But I do have a valve controller, though I don't remember any issues even when I just had them unplugged without the controller.

And jesus @oli356 ! What are you, a p*ssy or what?

 

[oli356]

And jesus @oli356 ! What are you, a p*ssy or what?

Hahahaha. Well it probably happens more often then I think.. But usually if at 5k rpm I'm giving it some and paying more attention to the road than what rpm I'm at haha. Either way, never noticed a reduction in power. I can still get in the car and go "damn this thing is fast...(even at 5k RPM)" lol

 

[Marky-s3]

No issues here and know of a few stage 2 cars running 460 lb+ on stock dsg tune it may not be related to the gearbox tbh but could be dare say its worth the box tune anyway