S4 Avant upgrade path options?

[CrypticS3]

Right. Had the car for a grand total of 5 days now and I've already got that itch. Have never kept a car standard for any great length of time and this one is no different.

Having looked at the options I now need to hear some real world experience with different tuners and the different stages of tune so I can plan an upgrade path.

Basics-
First things first, as always with me, Intake and exhaust. Initial thoughts are ECS Tuning Kohlefaser Intake and AWE Track Exhaust.

Next would be Mild chassis upgrades. ARB's, Engine mounts, Gearbox, rear subframe and diff inserts.

Then in preparation for more power I'm considering the APR Coolant Performance System.

Maps-
Next would be a tune. Now there seem to be a lot of options. Flash tunes from REVO and APR and Custom from @Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. and unsure but I believe the MRC tunes are also custom. Thoughts?

As of right now I'm unsure of how far I'm going to go but I will be going at least stage 1. Going further than that will require upgrades to the Brakes. Now I could get away with Some decent disks and pads with braided lines and performance fluid for road use but as the Avant is a heavy girl track use will need a BBK. I don't really plan on tracking the car so probably won't need to go that route...... yet.

Also at this point I'll be getting the Box mapped. I'm leaning towards the APR map as from what I've read so far the MRC map seems quite restrained. Input on both maps would be appreciated as there are probably more real world pro's and con's than those listed on the marketing fluff. Also may have to consider Suspension but I don't want to lose the current comfort adjustability. Are there and plug and play coilover solutions?

If all that isn't enough.... Well it'll be back to the tuner's for some more upgrades. This is where it gets tricky (well the tuners Stages do 1+/2/2+ etc... not very well explained from any of them). Do I just go SC Pulley, do I dual Pulley? De-Cat/High Flow Cats (Are the cats in the DP's or Manifolds, or both?)? Or do I do away with the whole OE system and go Long Tube headers?

So there you have it. Another wall of text from me. All advice and experience welcome.

 

[Lavis89]

I've got the ECS intake, and im a big fan!
Also torn when it comes to mapping, i'ld rather go MRC but the APR gearbox map does seem to offer more...
I'm pretty sure there are coilovers out there that give you their version of ADS such as
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-bilstein-parts/b16-ride-control-coilover-system/49-151282~bil/
But i dont think they interface with the OEM button etc.

As for the cats. i'm pretty sure they're inbetween the manifold and the downpipe

 

[arad85]

Personally, don't think it's worth losing sleep over. All the tuners you mention appear to be good. If it were me, I'd go local tuner if I trusted them, generic map if not local or I didn't trust my local. I've been super happy with APR personally, but my car is the dev car for the CREC engine so my experiences may be different to others.

Cats are b'stards to do on these engines evidently....

 

[CrypticS3]

I've got the ECS intake, and im a big fan!
Also torn when it comes to mapping, i'ld rather go MRC but the APR gearbox map does seem to offer more...
I'm pretty sure there are coilovers out there that give you their version of ADS such as
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-bilstein-parts/b16-ride-control-coilover-system/49-151282~bil/
But i dont think they interface with the OEM button etc.

As for the cats. i'm pretty sure they're inbetween the manifold and the downpipe

I was afraid that there wouldn't be any Suspension upgrades compatible with the Audi system. I guess I could try for a spring kit to drop the car a little but I've never been a fan of doing that due to the imbalance between the spring rate and dampeners. Bouncy/Crashy ride and excessive wear on the shocks. Would need to see if anyone has run some long term.

If the cats are inbetween the Manifold and DP's that would be perfect until I find a suitable Hi-Flow option as my Scooby is already a chore come MOT time and it's not even a hard job..... Lazy I guess

Personally, don't think it's worth losing sleep over. All the tuners you mention appear to be good. If it were me, I'd go local tuner if I trusted them, generic map if not local or I didn't trust my local. I've been super happy with APR personally, but my car is the dev car for the CREC engine so my experiences may be different to others.

Cats are b'stards to do on these engines evidently....

I'm not going to lose sleep. Just figured I'd ask as there are a lot of people who've already gone through the process so just seeing if I can get some real world input so I have a better understanding of what they have to offer other than just going off their marketing fluff. Also don't have any 'Local' tuners and would rather have reputable tuners with real experience. I don't mind the mileage.

As for the cats that's the impression I'm getting too. As I said above I will keep researching Hi-Flow options as I don't want to be doing that every year come MOT time.

 

[CrypticS3]

Ok, so I've found out that the Cat's are indeed between the Manifold and Down Pipes. Got a handy image of another forum. Might be handy for others.

 

[Cerbera9]

A BBK would be first on my list, as you say these cars are heavy and in standard form even with good discs and pads the stock brakes are "adequate" but once tuned they can easily be a weak point on the car. Your planning on spending a lot of money on improving the performance and then skimping on the brakes. No point going fast if you can't stop!!!
I went with the MRC stage 2 package and its fantastic, very OE in delivery and smooth & responsive in nature, simple drive in and out upgrade that transforms the car.
Cheap mods would be a gearbox mount which helps smooth gear changes and a CR-15 strut brace which helps with turn in on cornering.

 

[jdp1962]

I'm pretty cautious when it comes to modding, but I've just this week booked my S4 into a local firm for a generic stage 1 map. It's a company I've used for servicing and repairs for years, I know the personnel really well and trust them. At the same time, they'll be fitting a billet transmission mount that's presently on its way from China.

 

[Cerbera9]

Why are you looking to remove the Cats at this stage? At the level you are at stage 1or 2 there is performance gain to removing them other than it being a costly exercise unless you are experiencing or want to prevent Cat failure?

 

[mercules]

I've read the cats after the headers are the main restrictive part on the s4 exhaust the rest you change for sound. Although saying that the fastest s4s with all the simular mods at stage2+ some have them in and some removed and apparently there's not really any difference. I'm thinking you should add scorpion to that list on exhaust its claiming zero drone and couple members on here rate it highly and it's cheaper that some of ita competitors.

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[mercules]

Difference in performance btw. I'm ready to book MRC soonish so if you choose them give me a shout we can get same day discount.

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[Lavis89]

Depends what you're after when it comes to the scorpion, i was disappointed by how they sound. Brilliant that it's practically drone free but much prefer the sound of my milltek. From what I've heard of the AWE system I do not think it would disappoint anyone!

The cats are a bit of a nightmare to get to, I swapped my exhaust myself and I couldn't even see the cats let alone work out a way of getting to them

 

[Cerbera9]

I've read the cats after the headers are the main restrictive part on the s4 exhaust the rest you change for sound. Although saying that the fastest s4s with all the simular mods at stage2+ some have them in and some removed and apparently there's not really any difference. I'm thinking you should add scorpion to that list on exhaust its claiming zero drone and couple members on here rate it highly and it's cheaper that some of ita competitors.

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Not sure where you read that about the restriction? Earlier this year we went to MRC with two identical cars, apart from one with Cats and one without (testpipes fitted) and there was 1hp difference. According to Doug @ MRC without the Cats you can run as much boost due to the lack of back pressure so the car runs more timing, this does help reduce the heat associated with running higher boost but there is no performance gain it balances it out. The reason Cats are usually removed on stage 2+, dual pulley and ultracharged cars is to reduce heat build up destroying the cats. just consider that test pipes are £600 plus about 6hrs labour to fit them so about £1000 for zero performance gain but you would have peace of mind.

 

[mercules]

Not sure where you read that about the restriction? Earlier this year we went to MRC with two identical cars, apart from one with Cats and one without (testpipes fitted) and there was 1hp difference. According to Doug @ MRC without the Cats you can run as much boost due to the lack of back pressure so the car runs more timing, this does help reduce the heat associated with running higher boost but there is no performance gain it balances it out. The reason Cats are usually removed on stage 2+, dual pulley and ultracharged cars is to reduce heat build up destroying the cats. just consider that test pipes are £600 plus about 6hrs labour to fit them so about £1000 for zero performance gain but you would have peace of mind.

I read on here and on US forum too bud, although US call them piggies. I am stock like Cryptic still so was researching basically what he has posted here. Came across some threads and comparisons and found BCS backboxes and the Scorpion the rest are 2k upwards. So i guess from what you are saying no point really in removing them.. cost outweighs the benefit really.

 

[Cerbera9]

If you have a Cat fail its a cost effective upgrade or are stage 2+ then yes remove the Cats to help with heat management. on their own as a performance mod they are not worth doing, same with the exhaust system tbh, nothing really to be gained other than a bit of noise.

 

[Cerbera9]

Firstly I would upgrade the brakes, whatever level you tune too your gonna need them!!!!

Second Chassis mods, ARB's, Engine mounts, Gearbox, rear subframe and diff inserts etc maybe lowering springs/coilovers, CR-15 brace and decent tyres?

Then worry about tuning.
Intake, Pulley change (supercharger or crank pulley) and remap & TCU remap.
Now would also be the time to add any cooler upgrade to help with the associated rise in temps.
I went with MRC as it was a one stop shop for tuning, drive in & drive out with a good reputation and great results.
Also worth considering factoring in DSG and gearbox fluid changes if you going to drive the car hard.

Only after all of the above and then was to go for stage2+ would I worry about the exhaust and Cats tbh.

 

[CrypticS3]

A BBK would be first on my list, as you say these cars are heavy and in standard form even with good discs and pads the stock brakes are "adequate" but once tuned they can easily be a weak point on the car. Your planning on spending a lot of money on improving the performance and then skimping on the brakes. No point going fast if you can't stop!!!
I went with the MRC stage 2 package and its fantastic, very OE in delivery and smooth & responsive in nature, simple drive in and out upgrade that transforms the car.
Cheap mods would be a gearbox mount which helps smooth gear changes and a CR-15 strut brace which helps with turn in on cornering.

I could get into a debate on the requirement for a BBK on a car that most likely won't see any track action but it would be a really long winded post. I will start with upgraded lines, fluid, disks and pads and move on from there. For now I'm debating whether to go Stage 1 or jump straight to stage 2. If it becomes apparent that the brakes start to struggle on my favourite roads then I will revisit the BBK option. If you read my post again you will see that it haven't discounted it.

Why are you looking to remove the Cats at this stage? At the level you are at stage 1or 2 there is performance gain to removing them other than it being a costly exercise unless you are experiencing or want to prevent Cat failure?

I'm not planning removing the cats initially. Just possibly later on down the line for the reasons that some have mentioned. Though I'd plan on replacing them with some High Flow cats as it seems it's not a cost effective modification for power gains and not worth the expense come MOT time.

I've read the cats after the headers are the main restrictive part on the s4 exhaust the rest you change for sound. Although saying that the fastest s4s with all the simular mods at stage2+ some have them in and some removed and apparently there's not really any difference. I'm thinking you should add scorpion to that list on exhaust its claiming zero drone and couple members on here rate it highly and it's cheaper that some of ita competitors.

I had considered the scorpion but after watching a few videos I didn't feel it offered up anything special in the way it sounds. To be honest it sounds stock with the volume turned up a fraction.

Not sure where you read that about the restriction? Earlier this year we went to MRC with two identical cars, apart from one with Cats and one without (testpipes fitted) and there was 1hp difference. According to Doug @ MRC without the Cats you can run as much boost due to the lack of back pressure so the car runs more timing, this does help reduce the heat associated with running higher boost but there is no performance gain it balances it out. The reason Cats are usually removed on stage 2+, dual pulley and ultracharged cars is to reduce heat build up destroying the cats. just consider that test pipes are £600 plus about 6hrs labour to fit them so about £1000 for zero performance gain but you would have peace of mind.

This was my thoughts with the cats but as I said above it is not in the immediate future. Just possibly part of the long term plan.

I read on here and on US forum too bud, although US call them piggies. I am stock like Cryptic still so was researching basically what he has posted here. Came across some threads and comparisons and found BCS backboxes and the Scorpion the rest are 2k upwards. So i guess from what you are saying no point really in removing them.. cost outweighs the benefit really.

Yep, as above it's just a thought for further down the line.

If you have a Cat fail its a cost effective upgrade or are stage 2+ then yes remove the Cats to help with heat management. on their own as a performance mod they are not worth doing, same with the exhaust system tbh, nothing really to be gained other than a bit of noise.

Yep. But the car really does need to gain some 'Noise'. It's very quiet but with a nice sound. Just need to turn it up the volume.

 

[Dippy]

@CrypticS3 - I went with MRC because the maps are custom and consequently they were showing better results. Their FB page is full of such results whereas for other tuners there are few or even no dyno charts to back their product. However I'll admit to being a bit disappointed with the TCU remap. Yes it does the required jobs of raising the redline and increasing the clutch clamping, and I do notice the faster gearchanges that they claim, however my disappointment comes from the fact that they do not change the shift points, and that seems like a missed opportunity: Their TCU remap does not get the best out of their ECU remap.

If you want to know more about the subject of dampened vs undampened crank pulleys then let me know.

 

[V8_Man]

This is why cats are difficult and expensive to replace (labour wise)

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[CrypticS3]

@CrypticS3 - I went with MRC because the maps are custom and consequently they were showing better results. Their FB page is full of such results whereas for other tuners there are few or even no dyno charts to back their product. However I'll admit to being a bit disappointed with the TCU remap. Yes it does the required jobs of raising the redline and increasing the clutch clamping, and I do notice the faster gearchanges that they claim, however my disappointment comes from the fact that they do not change the shift points, and that seems like a missed opportunity: Their TCU remap does not get the best out of their ECU remap.

If you want to know more about the subject of dampened vs undampened crank pulleys then let me know.

Yes, these were my thoughts on their TCU map. Nice to hear confirmation from someone running it. I wonder if it would be possible to run an MRC ECU map with an APR TCU map?

As for the pulleys.... tell me more.

This is why cats are difficult and expensive to replace (labour wise)

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Eeeek .

 

[V8_Man]

Not going in to too much detail but I was in the same boat a while ago and @arad85 was of immense help with which exhaust system to chose or perhaps not. I'll simply copy/paste the links that he shared and it contain huge amounts of information about one person (well, two) trying different exhausts.
Take a look at these threads:
1- https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s4-exhaust-round-up-and-reviews.255343/, and this one:
2- http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/732364-Exhausts-AWE-vs-Everyone-Else

 

[Dippy]

As for the pulleys.... tell me more.

OK. Since this can be a moot subject I'll just be factual and let you make your own decision.

As per Audi document SSP925803 with reference to the supercharger and ancilliary drive belts:
"Each belt drive is insulated against crankshaft vibration by a rubber buffer in a shared torsion vibration damper. The result is better resonance damping at low engine speeds and full throttle. Because of this the load on the belt is significantly lower."

The OEM crank pulley is effectively a sandwich of two metal parts with a rubber filling. That rubber damps vibrations but it can perish. There have been reports (but only a few) of the rubber perishing, on both stock and tuned cars. The failure modes range from belt slip through to the outer part of the pulley coming completely free. Aside from an damaged caused from that, there is a tendency that the water pump gets damaged.

Some stage 2 tunes only reduce the size of the supercharger pulley. This means that the crank pulley remains dampened but with the risk of failure noted above. There is an argument that the increased load caused by the smaller pulley increases that risk.

Other stage 2 tunes (and so called DP - "dual pulley") increase the size of the crank pulley. Most involve using a single-piece pulley. These provide no resonance damping so consequently (inference from the Audi statement) belt load is increased. There is no evidence that this can cause problems short to medium term, but the risk of problems long-term remains unknown. However there are options to increase the size of the crank pulley using a third-party dampened pulley (I am only familiar with one particular solution, but I am aware that there are others).

The single piece crank pulleys are much lighter than the OEM pulley. The third-party dampened pulleys are heavier, although some have less rotational mass than the OEM pulley. There is a thread about this currently on Audizine.

 

[adamk90]

I'll be going for MRC stage 2 towards the end of the year, have to save some pennies first haha..