3.0tdi Quattro - Vibration/Shuddering after remap!

[trophs]

Alright guys! First post on here, but was very impressed with the info for fitting my RNS-E.
Anyway, got a remap last week from Angel Tuning. Quoted 60bhp increase and 90ft/lb. Very impressed with the power, but if you accelerate hard there is a hell of a rumble/vibration which sounds to be from the centre of the car. If you go easier on the gas to get it past that revs then floor it again you can't hear/feel it! (But it does sound like it's doing it about peak torque) On testing the car with the guy he said I needed to drive it more like a petrol and I think he said something about it being the torque?? Not wanting to look too stupid, I just said ok and agreed to change my driving style, so hopefully you guys can help me to figure it out. Have e'mailed him to say I think I'm wrecking my car and what exactly is the noise.
Another thought I had from reading other posts was a fuel starvation or injector problem. I'm just hoping it's not a transmission/drivetrain problem!!
Any input much appreciated.

 

[unikarl]

I reckon its probably your dual mass flywheel.

I had a remap put onto my old Passat TDI and the extra torque going through the DMF showed its weakness and it did exactly what your describing. Using the revs more solves the problem but its a get around rather than a fix.

 

[rowdyboy]

If it's under hard acceleration/peak torque, is it not more likely to be the clutch slipping?? Do the revs change, not quite in proportion to the speed, even slightly. There doesn't seem much point in having the extra power/torque if you can't drive it hard. I was seriously considering having angel remap mine, but will wait to see your outcome now.

 

[jon1982]

same here, i had made my mind up to have angel remap mine, not too sure now.

 

[doug.p]

the problem your having is not with the remap, its with your car, if there is any weakness in your car then this sort of thing throws it up.
how is your car on idle ?? does the engine rattle or shake a bit more than usual ?? then if you press the clutch pedal down without putting into gear doe it change ?? if so the DMF is knackered and you will need to re mtg your house to get it fixed, as you will need a new clutch and master cylinder !
you could allways take it to audi and pay for 30mins labour to diagnose ??
but i agree there is a problem somewhere, you could ask angel to remove the map and see if the problem goes, but as stated allready, your prob just putting off the inevatible and you need to get it to a garage to be fixed.
anothe rthing to think about is the miles on your car, if its fairly high then you need to check your engine can take the extra that a map will throw at it
had my angel remap with no worries what so ever

 

[rowdyboy]

It could be the remap is too harsh aswell though, at the end of the day, the engine is producing a mountain of torque and if it's not delivered right it's not going to spin all 4 wheels so something has to give. Doug.p, are you affiliated with Angel at all, you seem to be well aquainted with them here and on another post?

 

[B5NUT]

When was the last time your fuel filter was changed?

 

[Richardesty]

It could be the remap is too harsh aswell though, at the end of the day, the engine is producing a mountain of torque and if it's not delivered right it's not going to spin all 4 wheels so something has to give.

Have to say - they were my thoughts exactly. Power hikes are all well and good but there are limits :weight_lift2:

 

[doug.p]

nope nothing to do with them
just had them remap my car with no probs at all
cant see the map being to harsh - the 3.0 TDI engine has been mapped hundreds of times with no issues, it must be something specific with this car that causes a problem

 

[Marc1]

Take it your car is a manual? I don't think it's been confirmed earlier?

 

[trophs]

Thanks for all the feedback so far guys! To clarify things a bit:-

It's a 2006 204bhp model, manual gearbox, with 53000miles. Fuel filter was last changed 26000 miles ago on 2nd Feb 09(Audi recommend 40,000).
No strange noises from engine bay on depressing the clutch and idle sounds good!

Went and used my friends old airfield yesterday and rolled on the power in each gear to see where the vibration occurs! (Paul from Angel Tuning also requested so he could look into it!)
1st - All wheels spin
2nd - Over too quickly to notice
3rd - Can hear a small rumble, but over too quick to see on rev counter.
4th - Rumble from 1900rpm to 3000rpm
5th - Rumble from 1800rpm to 2500rpm
6th - Rumble from 1800rpm to 2500rpm

Tried it going up a hill too in 4th and 5th gears and was at the same rev range.
This might be a few rpm out but as good as I could record it!

 

[rowdyboy]

All wheels spinning in 1st!!!!
Obviously the remap guy will know exactly how he has mapped it, but that would appear to be at peak torque/when the turbo is spinning up you get the rumble. If you are getting a big lump of torque/power kicking in, like i said previously something has to give.
Like one of the previous posts suggested, i would get the map removed and try exactly the same test again.

 

[B5NUT]

Thanks for all the feedback so far guys! To clarify things a bit:-

It's a 2006 204bhp model, manual gearbox, with 53000miles. Fuel filter was last changed 26000 miles ago on 2nd Feb 09(Audi recommend 40,000).

I was also told that, however my filter start to clog and produced simlar affects, I was thinking alsorts, gearbox clutch flywheel etc etc, turn out to be a £12 fuel filter.

 

[rowdyboy]

I was also told that, however my filter start to clog and produced simlar affects, I was thinking alsorts, gearbox clutch flywheel etc etc, turn out to be a £12 fuel filter.

Not that easy on a 3.0 diesel matey, the filter is £57, so it's an expensive suck it and see solution.

 

[B5NUT]

Yep it's not cheap, but seeing as Audi charge around £100 just for diagnostic, it's not a bad price + your just changing the the fuel filter a little early. Worth a punt if you cannot locate the fault cheaply or without having to take the map off.

 

[Dazmo]

Have a similiar problem with mine on acceleration.

I find that generally it goes away if you go higher with the revs and drive it like a petrol, not changing until you need to, this seems to spread the extra power and torque better.

If you try to accelerate in a high gear and low revs the car really does vibrate and struggles with the power.

Not sure when i last had my fuel filter changed, if this a fix then may have to give it a go myself.

 

[rowdyboy]

Unlikely to be the fuel filter, unless you are running the tank very low regularly and pulling all the crap through. If you changed the filter only a year ago aswell.
I don't suspect a diagnostic would show anything up any way B5nut, as they are describing a mechanical rumble. It's also described as coming from the middle of the car, so don't see how fuel starvation could be related. Also they say it's fine higher up the revs when fuel starvation would be even more noticeable.
With two people having the same problem on high torque increases, it has put me off a remap.

 

[unikarl]

As I said in my original answer...It will most likely be your DMF.

The problem was EXACTLY the same in my Passat...New DMF, problem cured! Only way to check is to remove it though!

 

[chrisru]

Absolutely it is your dual mass flywheel. I tried out a Bluefin remap on test, and found the first remap didn't make a huge difference, they then changed it for a more aggressive map, which brought the torque in more quickly and more noticeably. This generated exactly the issue you are talking about - the vibration from the flywheel felt throughput the car and when peak torque comes in around 2000 rpm. Bluefin were very familiar with the issue as they have a lot of exerience here, and the choice was the more subtle remap that brings in the torque more slowly or moving to a solid flywheel to get around the DMF issue.

 

[trophs]

Paul from Angel Tuning has come back to me and tends to agree with the majority of you, being that it's the DMF/Clutch. He has agreed to limit the torque slightly on the map and give it a good test once I get home from work. Should hopefully meet up with him in three weeks or so, so here's hoping! Will report back!

 

[Upuaut]

Hi there,

This is exactly the same issue I'm having with my 3.0 TDI Quattro Avant. Its unmodified and only had 24K miles when the issue first became apparent. As it was still under warranty when I took it in back in December. Audi have had it since the 23rd of December (warranty was out in Jan they've had it ever since) and they've replaced pretty much everything : drive shafts, rear diff (their first guess), prop shaft, gear box, they finally changed the DMF and clutch last week and the problem is still present.

Its going to Audi HQ to be look at by they "specialist technicians" however they aren't picking it up till June...

 

[trophs]

Clutch had finaly died, so that answers that one. Paul from angel tuning started ignoring my e'mails so didn't manage to get the map toned down a bit. Now looking for better clutch solutions. Audi have quoted £269.43 for clutch kit and £833 for dual mass flywheel(which apparently they need to change 90% of the time and that's without the labour, so it's going to be an expensive month.
Any suggestions on better cluches, affordable one mass set-ups, etc.

Cheers

Graham

 

[Dazmo]

Clutch had finaly died, so that answers that one. Paul from angel tuning started ignoring my e'mails so didn't manage to get the map toned down a bit. Now looking for better clutch solutions. Audi have quoted £269.43 for clutch kit and £833 for dual mass flywheel(which apparently they need to change 90% of the time and that's without the labour, so it's going to be an expensive month.
Any suggestions on better cluches, affordable one mass set-ups, etc.

Cheers

Graham

Isnt the cluth in the 3.0 TDI TDV the same as that in an RS4?

 

[trophs]

Final outcome! Replaced the clutch and DMF as local Bosch garage and shuddering had gone. First time I was able to find out how quick it was. I think it would have given my old R32 a run for it's money! The fun was short lived as the rumble returned slowly over about a week and is the same as it was before. Also have an intermittant problem with not being able to select 1st or 2nd gear now. Found out when purchasing the clutch that it is a 233bhp model and not the 201bhp model the Audi garage who sold it to me said it was. Not even sure if it has the correct map now. Have contacted Angel tuning to take the map off now at any cost, so hopefully they will stop ignoring me now. Can't afford to keep replacing clutches, DMF's and probably gearboxes.

 

[SebRogers]

I had exactly this issue when I had my 130pd remapped. The DMF at the time had only just been replaced, so that wasn't the issue. Tweaking the map reduced the problem but I decided just to revert to stock. About 6 months later I tried a (reputable) tuning box with similar results.

The clutch and dmf are designed to cope with certain loads, plus a small margin to allow fir manufacturing tolerances and the like. If you remap +20% torque then at the very least you'll be pushing clutch and dmf to their desigm limits. That's why some cars don't take well to remaps.

In the end I decided that if I wanted to drive a 170bhp car, I'd be better off buying one that wad designed with that power in mind in the first place. So that's what I did

 

[Baz H]

Agreed, I have just had my a6 Avant 3.0 tdi 233bhp re map'd with a superchips blue fin map, the car always seemed aggressive in it's power delivery before hand, i was hoping that the remap would make the power delivery more progressive as well as increase it.

First thing I noticed was the power was certainly not smoother, it can only be described as like jumping of a cliff, when the revs met 2k preity much regardless of throttle position it takes off in a big way, it was only the next day when i had finished being childish playing with the power and started to try and drive it normally for the sake of my pocket, that I started to notice if you were to accelerating in a higher gear as the revs came into the detonation vicinity you would experience the horrific vibrations, unfortunately I was due to go on holiday the next day in the car so proceeded to take it on a 1500 mile round trip, which admittedly vibration aside was incredible and more than held it's own against a friends RS6 which just goes to show the potential of these engines, especially made sore when I was still making 32mpg as compared to his 18!!

A week on and back to the daily commute it started to feel as if it was loosing drive, and things quickly progressed from there, now only 1700 miles on from the re map being installed, nearly un drivable in 4[SUP]th[/SUP] 5[SUP]th[/SUP] and 6[SUP]th[/SUP] without clutch slip, putting one and two together reading your posts it looks like I am now in for an almighty price to pay!!

I believe there is a reason why Audi really didn’t want to make a manual 3.0 tdi and why they have chosen not to offer it as an option in the newly released model!!


As much as reading this post has been like eating my wallet, if nothing else I can only recommend DONT DO IT!!!

 

[HarveyH]

Hello, Following onto this theme, I have a vibration issue that seems shared by many and there are lots of forums which have the same issues, but I never seem to see a positive solution reported. Some of the posts on these seem to say that A4s, particularly high mileage ones have this as a design fault and live with it - I hope not!
I have a 2006 2.0TDI 170bhp, 92K miles. It is a BRD engine. I have only had it for 2 months. It has just had all injectors replaced and the DMF and clutch. Vibration/rumble starts from around 45mph and upwards and seems to get worse the longer/warmer the car gets. After about 15 miles, in 5th and 6th gear the accelerator pedal, steering wheel and whole car seems to have a slight shaking to it. It is not alarming but very annoying and totally ruins the driving experience.

From what I have read it could be engine mounts, wheel balance, tyres, drive shaft, but does anyone have any definite thoughts or knowledge of a similar issue being cured and therefore what the solution was?


Thanks for any help.

 

[rowdyboy]

This thread is different mate, it's about vibration on a high torque engine after its been remapped.

From your symptoms, I'd definitely be looking at wheel alignment, balancing and maybe tyres.

 

[Dazmo]

Yep it's not cheap, but seeing as Audi charge around �100 just for diagnostic, it's not a bad price + your just changing the the fuel filter a little early. Worth a punt if you cannot locate the fault cheaply or without having to take the map off.

VAGTECH offer free diagnostics with any service using the same high tech equipment, these guys are VW/AUDI specialists.

 

[HarveyH]

Thanks for that. Apologies, not fully conversant with the etiquette of these forums. I will take it to a wheel/tyre outfit and then probably take it to a local indie, although based on the number of posts elsewhere I am not confident a solution will be found.

But thanks again.

This thread is different mate, it's about vibration on a high torque engine after its been remapped.

From your symptoms, I'd definitely be looking at wheel alignment, balancing and maybe tyres.

 

[rowdyboy]

I think you misunderstood mate, I wasn't having a go at you, I was just pointing out that this thread is different to your problem.

I think you'll find after an alignment and balance, you'll be grand.

 

[HarveyH]

Following Rowdyboy's advice took it to a tyre place today to have the wheels balanced, they had a feel round the tyres and despite all of them seemingly being relatively new and having lots of tread on diagnosed that all 4 tyres were mis-shapen. They said due to low pressures and likely heavy loads and it is not uncommon for tyres to be ignored and damaged in this way. They showed the misalignment on the balancing wheel, so they were not bulls****g. Sure enough 4 new tyres and 500 quid later it seems they have cured the vibration/rumble.

A bit embarrassing but have only had use of the car for a month and came straight from an service at an Audi main dealer, so I had not thought to check pressures, assuming they would have done. They were running at 24 PSI rather the 35 - does a main dealer service include checking tyre pressures and tyres - I guess not.

But thanks Rowdyboy, you were correct.

 

[trophs]

Finally got the map off and all is good now, can be driven quicker than when I had the map with no worries. Cant get 1st and second gear sometimes though. Solution, Buy a 335d and an old discovery for winter(already got the second)

 

[Dazmo]

Finally got the map off and all is good now, can be driven quicker than when I had the map with no worries. Cant get 1st and second gear sometimes though. Solution, Buy a 335d and an old discovery for winter(already got the second)

I have had mine remapped for years, yes it judders and vibrates at hard acceleration.


But this is only if your in a high gear, drop it down and it's fine.