3.0 tdi 272 vs 2.0 Q Tfsi

willie

willie

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Hello,

I am in the market for a used A4 estate, mainly for the other half, but also for longer family trips and I'm interested in people's opinions and theories please.

The car will do approx. 7k a year, mainly with a mix of city and short runs (10-15 miles) and if I can find something with a high spec., may well keep it for 8-10 years (like the last audi.....still remarkably solid).

I have a c350cdi and love the smoothness, power and suspension (compared to our old B7!) so the 272 appeals to me, particularly given the reviews I have read. My concern now is the demonisation of diesel. I'm not too worried about value after 8-10 years as to me the car will owe me nothing. I'm more concerned that it may become prohibitively expensive to run if taxes etc penalise more and more, especially being a more powerful diesel.

So, should i consider a petrol? I can't justify an S4. Does the 252 compare? or am I going to have to rev the nuts off the things, thus loosing the laid back nature of a v6 diesel? I know the 2.0 doesn't have it, but I really dislike all these fake exhausts I hear on higher powered petrol.

So, my low annual miles says petrol......but...........can anyone reassure me that the 272 is a good long term proposition........please.

Thanks
 
willie said:
Hello,

I am in the market for a used A4 estate, mainly for the other half, but also for longer family trips and I'm interested in people's opinions and theories please.

The car will do approx. 7k a year, mainly with a mix of city and short runs (10-15 miles) and if I can find something with a high spec., may well keep it for 8-10 years (like the last audi.....still remarkably solid).

I have a c350cdi and love the smoothness, power and suspension (compared to our old B7!) so the 272 appeals to me, particularly given the reviews I have read. My concern now is the demonisation of diesel. I'm not too worried about value after 8-10 years as to me the car will owe me nothing. I'm more concerned that it may become prohibitively expensive to run if taxes etc penalise more and more, especially being a more powerful diesel.

So, should i consider a petrol? I can't justify an S4. Does the 252 compare? or am I going to have to rev the nuts off the things, thus loosing the laid back nature of a v6 diesel? I know the 2.0 doesn't have it, but I really dislike all these fake exhausts I hear on higher powered petrol.

So, my low annual miles says petrol......but...........can anyone reassure me that the 272 is a good long term proposition........please.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I had the B8.5 3.0tdi 245 and while it was extremely good, for the number of miles and type of driving I’d actually recommend the petrol. The V6 takes a very long time to heat up the water and oil as well so the 2.0T would be significantly better in that regard.

Because I did short 5-6 mile trips to and from work the fuel economy was only about 33mog average which is as good as people are getting with the new 2.0T.

The S4 is a great option as well, but only if it’s financially feasible.


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I've got the 252 petrol avant and would really not consider diesel unless I was covering longer distances. Performance is great and it has plenty of torque for more relaxed cruising. Running diesels for shorter journeys can cause issues, my previous VW diesel needed a replacement egr valve and was probably caused by not getting enough high speed runs and if you cover only short distances then you you can also get issues with the dpf.

On the other hand, the 272 diesel has a torque converter gear box so you may prefer that feel to the s-tronic although I like the dual clutch box. If you want to tow then the diesel may also be a stronger option.
 
I'd say go and have a drive of the petrol, in fact try the 190 as well as the 252. You'll be shocked at how smooth it is compared to a B7.
 
Thanks chaps,

I should really go and test drive the petrol, my only experiences in recent years of petrols have been some rather underpowered Seats or Opels whilst abroad.......I'm really not comparing apples for apples.

How does the 252's exhuast not sound....they have fettled with it have they?

What kind of real world mpg are people getting from their 252s?

And are dual clutch boxes more secure now than they were in their infancy? I have noticed a general trend away from them in higher powered cars.
 
Exhaust sound has not been fettled with. I'm getting around 33mpg long term average. In terms of dual clutch strength, Porsche uses the PDK so they can take plenty of power. You can get the 2.0 remapped and the makers claim the gearboxes can take the extra power with no impact on longevity.
 
With that annual mileage and short trips I would go for the petrol. With limited mileage the difference in fuel costs is fairly minimal. A remap on the petrol will put it over 300 bhp and may net you a little more mpg. If your anywhere near Manchester I can recommend Rick at Unicorn Motor developments.
Based on 7K miles a year and £1.20 a litre for petrol , £1.23 for diesel.
petrol 1.2 x4.54 = 5.45 a gallon
diesel 1.23 * 4.54 = 5.58
7000 miles
diesel 40 mpg = 175 gallons = 976.50
petrol 30 mpg = 233 gallons = 1271
1271 -976.5 = 294.5 so with a 10mpg difference in economy based on 7000 miles the petrol is around £300 more to run.
But if the cost of road tax goes up and diesels do become more difficult to run/sell in future years the petrol could be the way to go.
 
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willie said:
Hello,

I am in the market for a used A4 estate, mainly for the other half, but also for longer family trips and I'm interested in people's opinions and theories please.

The car will do approx. 7k a year, mainly with a mix of city and short runs (10-15 miles) and if I can find something with a high spec., may well keep it for 8-10 years (like the last audi.....still remarkably solid).

I have a c350cdi and love the smoothness, power and suspension (compared to our old B7!) so the 272 appeals to me, particularly given the reviews I have read. My concern now is the demonisation of diesel. I'm not too worried about value after 8-10 years as to me the car will owe me nothing. I'm more concerned that it may become prohibitively expensive to run if taxes etc penalise more and more, especially being a more powerful diesel.

So, should i consider a petrol? I can't justify an S4. Does the 252 compare? or am I going to have to rev the nuts off the things, thus loosing the laid back nature of a v6 diesel? I know the 2.0 doesn't have it, but I really dislike all these fake exhausts I hear on higher powered petrol.

So, my low annual miles says petrol......but...........can anyone reassure me that the 272 is a good long term proposition........please.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Is having a quattro cast in stone? I also can assure you that there will be no need to 'rev the nuts' of a modern turbo petrol engine as the maximum torque of 370Nm kicks in at 1600rpm...
 
Don't really know too much about remapping petrols.....know that on a v6 diesel you can easily get an extra 25-30%, what are the SAFE figures for the 252?

Thanks for the Maths desertstorm, doesn't look like there's much in it and also I'm sure the mpg would be closer than 10 given the short nature of the miles the car would do.

cuke2u, Isn't Quattro the only way to get the higher bhp? As you say I'm sure there is no need to rev like........the last petrol I was given was a Fiat Punto and trying to get that up the slopes of lake Como has made a lasting impression (on my ears).

My 350cdi has similar bhp to the 252 but has 600nm of torque so you can understand my trepidation..... in my mind I'm loosing 2 cylinders and alot of torque, but I obviously need to go and try one.......
 
desertstorm said:
With that annual mileage and short trips I would go for the petrol. With limited mileage the difference in fuel costs is fairly minimal. A remap on the petrol will put it over 300 bhp and may net you a little more mpg. If your anywhere near Manchester I can recommend Rick at Unicorn Motor developments.
Based on 7K miles a year and £1.20 a litre for petrol , £1.23 for diesel.
petrol 1.2 x4.54 = 5.45 a gallon
diesel 1.23 * 4.54 = 5.58
7000 miles
diesel 40 mpg = 175 gallons = 976.50
petrol 30 mpg = 233 gallons = 1271
1271 -976.5 = 294.5 so with a 10mpg difference in economy based on 7000 miles the petrol is around £300 more to run.
But if the cost of road tax goes up and diesels do become more difficult to run/sell in future years the petrol could be the way to go.
Click to expand...

The petrol is £300 more to run by your calculations but since the diesel is £1700 more to buy than the petrol, you’d still be £1400 better off. I’d also doubt the diesel would average 40mpg with short trips, and the petrol would be about what you’ve quoted so the difference would be less in reality I’d imagine.

All just guesses but I’d say that petrol would be better for what you’re using it for to be honest.


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Oh, and although I’m not entirely convinced on the actual numbers quoted, Revo can certainly get some extra performance out of it.




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Yes Daggerit, petrol is what my head should be saying but if I'm buying second hand the figures might get a bit closer. In theory second hand diesel should be getting cheaper and consequently petrols will be retaining their value more as demand shifts towards them.

What Revo have done to that car is impressive, although I do wonder what effect it may have on the longevity of the thing. I looked on the MTM website and they say they are still developing ......I
 
Are Audi actually understating the performance of the 252 so that it doesn't appear to step on the toes of the s4????

Bit like Porsche having to dampen down the Caymen when they discovered how fast it was so as to keep it away from the 911
 
willie said:
Don't really know too much about remapping petrols.....know that on a v6 diesel you can easily get an extra 25-30%, what are the SAFE figures for the 252?

Thanks for the Maths desertstorm, doesn't look like there's much in it and also I'm sure the mpg would be closer than 10 given the short nature of the miles the car would do.

cuke2u, Isn't Quattro the only way to get the higher bhp? As you say I'm sure there is no need to rev like........the last petrol I was given was a Fiat Punto and trying to get that up the slopes of lake Como has made a lasting impression (on my ears).

My 350cdi has similar bhp to the 252 but has 600nm of torque so you can understand my trepidation..... in my mind I'm loosing 2 cylinders and alot of torque, but I obviously need to go and try one.......
Click to expand...
I am not surprised at your concerns if the only petrol engined car you have driven is a punto. Even a modern 1.4 turbo engine has a decent turn of speed these days. It is the age old conumdrum of head versus heart, however a quattro is not essential for that kind of power, or less as, for me, my engine is more than enough.
Yes try one, you must, all you'll get in a forum is opinions based upon that individual experiences, and I include myself in this, that will possibly make your decision even more difficult. It is though generally excepted that petrols are more suited for low mileage and diesels for high but I would state this argument is more 'muddied' by the mpg modern petrol engines can achieve and I would say that even for long distance either are suitable. The issue I always had with diesels was with the dpf regeneration on short journey's meant I had to take the car out for a blast once a month which negated the slightly better mpg.
If you can get a test drive over a longer period that would be better and I would say, out of all the petrol engines I have driven, the ones in a Audi are probably amongst the best...
 
willie said:
Are Audi actually understating the performance of the 252 so that it doesn't appear to step on the toes of the s4????

Bit like Porsche having to dampen down the Caymen when they discovered how fast it was so as to keep it away from the 911
Click to expand...

I think you’ll likely find that most Audi acceleration figures are very conservative.

Stock S4’s are seeing times of low 4s stock versus the 4.7-4.9 quoted. That’s why I’m a little surprised that they got 4.9s from the S4 in that video, 0.2s slower than even quoted by Audi!


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Another point worth considering... the v6 diesel is a heavy lump compared to the 4 pot petrol. On balance I prefer the immense lazy torque of my 272 but having driven the lighter engined version the effect on handling is noticable
 
I need to try this petrol. I really want to like it, but reading reviews of the engine in various cars the testers don't seem to feel it.
I know it's a diesel, but on the move my c350 has got a decent sound to it at certain times....shame they don't do v6 diesels in anything other than s4 form.....maybe if diesel really does fade will we see the return of more varied petrol range.......a detuned s4 engine available in whatever trim you please...
 
Hi, I was in the same position about 4 months ago with a 13 plate c350 cdi on 70,000 miles, I went for an 8 month old 272 diesel Avant, but as others have pointed out diesels are really for the larger mileages, most of my journeys are around 100 miles on the motorway and all told mpg is 47.0 (from an app). 50.1 on the computer after 7,000 miles. I'd agree on warm up as the mpg only really starts to improve once the oil is around 90 degC (virtual dash) which takes around 30 miles, much longer than the c350.
The c350 was lovely, but there's not a lot of v6 estates around, I did not try the petrol as my miles were greater and I got a really good deal on an ex Audi management car. If I were you I'd definitely try the petrol given your low journey distances. Good luck.
 
RonS3 said:
Another point worth considering... the v6 diesel is a heavy lump compared to the 4 pot petrol. On balance I prefer the immense lazy torque of my 272 but having driven the lighter engined version the effect on handling is noticable
Click to expand...

That would be one of the key reasons why I go 4-pot petrol rather than V6 diesel. I bet the difference in weight is about 100kgs
 
I can tell you the exact figures:
3.0 Diesel Avant 272ps Curb Weight - 1695kg
2.0 Petrol Avant 252ps Curb Weight - 1575kg
Both are without driver.
 
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There are so many variables in the difference between different engines and cars in the A4.
By reading the post there is only 10mpg difference, best I have achieved in my 272 is 57 mpg but it was in Holland,driving round cumbria it won’t do that .worst I have see is 38 and that’s drivING to fast really .

Test drive them ,we all have different styles of driving and roads where we drive ,I personally wouldn’t buy an S4 for example and drive round in eco mode all the time,sort of defeats the object really .
 
Thanks everybody, I have enjoyed the debate. Looks like it's the petrol or a rethink. I'm not getting rid of my c350 so having two big diesels doing small miles would be madness. Maybe I'll get GAD to remap the c350 and that will satisfy my need for power. Or maybe I'll wait for the new a6......anyone know of any interesting engine news on what's going to be offered ???
 
If you want to hear the noise for the 2.0 TFSI Quattro there are some great reviews on YouTube . It sounds really good. very throaty. As good as a v6 Diesel based on my ownership of a b7 2.0 and an Audi A5 3.0 Tdi,
I went for S4 in the end, mainly because when I had added all options, there wasn’t much price differential... and I could. I would ave been delighted with the 252 also.
Think of resale in a few years,,, Diesel might be challenging .
Here’s one of many...
 
Hello,

Quick update ....life has taken over and I haven't got anywhere or done anything.

So, back to the original quandary ,but now I'm rethinking it and the new car would be doing approx 12-13k a year.. ....does it swing things more in favour of the 272?
 
I have a 272 and do long weekly motorway journeys, c20k per year. The car is fantastic for this - it takes a while to warm up but thereafter it cruises effortlessly and with adaptive cruise control activated, the drive is relaxing, even through rush hour traffic. Fuel economy is superb - this saving offset by costs of tyres and other consumables.
 
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I asked a similar question before I bought my 272 last year. I don't do a lot of miles but this past year I've been very happy with the car. Probably my one and only gripe with it compared with petrol is how long it takes to warm the cabin up in winter. Quattro with winter tyres has been awesome too.

I think looking back I'm glad that I made this decision because like you I'm planning to keep the car for a while as I'm not leasing it. And from what I understand the zf transmission that is in the 272 is simpler, stronger, more reliable and cheaper to repair should the need arise when compared with the s tronic gearbox.

Am I right in saying the s tronic gearbox is a bit flimsy and known to break after a while? Pretty sure I've seen that every so often. Anyways that's a pretty big deal breaker for me for a long term car.
 
If you don’t do the miles in the diesel and burn the coke off you will get problems long before your ready to part with it in 8-10years
 
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I’d also think in five years plus it’s emmisoms will be at the point of it being banned from city centres if that affects you.
 
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Probably not relevant to this engine comparison but I am getting 40mpg average out of the 1.4 and it can do 50mpg. I am guessing the 150tdi would yield 50mpg and 60mpg in the same conditions so that's probably £20/month difference over 10k miles/year. But considering the difference in price the break even point might actually be quite high in terms of mileage. Plus you're still in a diesel which kind of spoilS the near silent experience of the tiny engine, not to mention handling and dirty hands when you refuel.
 
Still a divisive debate ......

Yes, how far this demonisation of diesel goes is something that makes me hesitate. I live in a small city and if they were banned this would not be good ,but I really can't see, given the number of diesels still being sold, how this will happen anytime soon.
Yes some are being replaced but how are all these large ,heavy Suvs going to be powered by people living in victorian houses with no guaranteed parking /charging outside their houses. ?...the whole electric /charging thing is very flawed in any great volume ....ok for the odd tesla ,i3, leaf here and there ,but we are a long way off it becoming the norm .

Anyway , back to the 272, I think if I got anything else (other than an S4) I'd Always be regretting the decision. We're only here once and before I know it I'll be dribbling and driving a Honda .
 
willie said:
Still a divisive debate ......

Yes, how far this demonisation of diesel goes is something that makes me hesitate. I live in a small city and if they were banned this would not be good ,but I really can't see, given the number of diesels still being sold, how this will happen anytime soon.
Yes some are being replaced but how are all these large ,heavy Suvs going to be powered by people living in victorian houses with no guaranteed parking /charging outside their houses. ?...the whole electric /charging thing is very flawed in any great volume ....ok for the odd tesla ,i3, leaf here and there ,but we are a long way off it becoming the norm .

Anyway , back to the 272, I think if I got anything else (other than an S4) I'd Always be regretting the decision. We're only here once and before I know it I'll be dribbling and driving a Honda .
Click to expand...
So your getting an s4 then? Good call
 
Daggerit said:
Oh, and although I’m not entirely convinced on the actual numbers quoted, Revo can certainly get some extra performance out of it.




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Click to expand...


Hmmm....

Been looking at this and not sure it’s all that legit. Assuming their quoted figures the S4 is still more powerful per tonne, and surely a 3.0 would have a greater power band...

Also they quote stage 1 333ps but on their website stage 1 is 280-306ps...

Marketing hype I think.
 
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Jsmills said:
Hmmm....

Been looking at this and not sure it’s all that legit. Assuming their quoted figures the S4 is still more powerful per tonne, and surely a 3.0 would have a greater power band...

Also they quote stage 1 333ps but on their website stage 1 is 280-306ps...

Marketing hype I think.
Click to expand...

Aye, exactly. All points I had in my head when writing about it. I’ve no doubt it’ll be decently faster but not that fast when compared to an S4.


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Go for the 272. Even with low miles its unlikely to soot up unless your stuck in traffic all the time. I find using Shell V Power helps but the car will tell you when it needs to be sorted and that involves a 15 min drive at 2000 rpm. Easy in manual mode.....
I came from a BMW 335d and prefer the Audi for ride and comfort, even the B&O is better than BMW's Hardon Karmon system. Only regret is the hesitation, but I can live with that.
 
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Jsmills said:
Hmmm....

Been looking at this and not sure it’s all that legit. Assuming their quoted figures the S4 is still more powerful per tonne, and surely a 3.0 would have a greater power band...

Also they quote stage 1 333ps but on their website stage 1 is 280-306ps...

Marketing hype I think.
Click to expand...

I think they launched the S4 with the E-brake on...
 
Just reading back over this conversation I find it highly amusing that audi have now released a v6 diesel s4.... We would never have guessed it!!
 
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