S3 Understeer, Mermaids and Unicorns

[veeeight]

Let's try again (although I know I'm wasting my breath)......


The salient point, which you seem to be failing to grasp - is that the S3 has a greater propensity to understeer under road conditions, than other similar or 'lesser' cars, eg. Fiesta ST or Golf R.

Which is a shame, for a supposedly hot/hyper/premium hatch.


"Has a greater propensity to understeer" means that it does understeer more readily than similar or 'lesser' cars.

In English, it's an inclusive term, it means that the S3 does understeer.

And now we're getting somewhere. Yes. I'm glad you agree that the S3 understeers at its limits.

Nobody was suggesting otherwise.
Those limits just happen to be lower in an S3, compared to say a Fiesta ST, Megane RS or Golf R, given the same bends and conditions.

However- you are displaying yet more ignorance by mentioning the AWD system. Haldex plays no part in handling or grip around a bend. In fact, if anything, it's responsible for pushing the nose wider still, because of the lack of a centre diff.

But that's a whole new can of worms.

 

[CraigI]

Let's try again (although I know I'm wasting my breath)......


The salient point, which you seem to be failing to grasp - is that the S3 has a greater propensity to understeer under road conditions, than other similar or 'lesser' cars, eg. Fiesta ST or Golf R.

Which is a shame, for a supposedly hot/hyper/premium hatch.


"Has a greater propensity to understeer" means that it does understeer more readily than similar or 'lesser' cars.

In English, it's an inclusive term, it means that the S3 does understeer.

And now we're getting somewhere. Yes. I'm glad you agree that the S3 understeers at its limits.

Nobody was suggesting otherwise.
Those limits just happen to be lower in an S3, compared to say a Fiesta ST or Golf R, given the same bends and conditions.

However- you are displaying yet more ignorance by mentioning the AWD system. Haldex plays no part in handling or grip around a bend. In fact, if anything, it's responsible for pushing the nose wider still, because of the lack of a centre diff.

But that's a whole new can of worms.

I await with excitement the feedback that Haldex is actually a brilliant AWD system.
Once the OP says so, its then counted as fact and my car gets better.
I really hope he has mag ride!

 

[batch]

In before the lockdown!
Although this should really be roast beef...

 

[CraigI]

Off topic, but flatoot, what do you think of the band U2?

 

[batch]

Off topic, but flatoot, what do you think of the band U2?

Ah, psych analysis...

 

[pburv]

In before the lockdown!
Although this should really be roast beef...

View attachment 74433

I could do with some pop corn....

 

[Tony1982]

This has been on the forum before but what the hell I enjoyed it, and I loved seeing the Golf being dismissed early on and no mention of understeer here! But what would they know hey??!! obviously you'll have to skip to the relevant parts.

 

[PanamaS3]

Drive like a bell end - your car will get out of shape.

bwaaahhhaaaaaaahhhaaaaaa....cornflakes out nose
Must be awfully boring analysing every single aspect and flaw of a car when driving it....and then analysing every review of it....and comparable cars.....then buying something that's not perfect in your eyes.....and owning a flawed car.....this must be hell for that person.....Hang on....maybe they didn't do their homework properly....got sold on what they thought was the best available car for the money at the time.....and now there are better options for them out there....they must be kicking themselves...livid....hell....need justifications or will die....come on here....bang on....I think I understand now, and it is awfully boring

 

[veeeight]

Crushing disappointment, that although the 8V is improved over the 8P in many areas, it hasn't kept pace with other marques/models on the market, the new S3 has fallen behind even its sister MQB car (or set up differently, the most apparent differences being steering and suspension).

Expectations were too high. Expected more from an "S" car.
You certainly don't expect worse damping on the 8V compared to the 8P.
Disappointing for Audi in 2015 (or 2013 when it was launched).

 

[Flatoot]

I believe you, you know way more than any of the rest of us, given your vast past experiences in many different areas of driving.
I think the mods should close this thread, its been categorically confirmed that the S3 does not understeer.

I for one am happy, if you think the S3 is perfect then I have the perfect car!
Whoo-hoo!

Perfect - nope.
Understeers (when driven like a gent, not a genital) - nope again.

 

[Simon L]

How about a selfie from my holiday last year to lighten the mood.......................??!!

 

[batch]

Crushing disappointment, that although the 8V is improved over the 8P in many areas, it hasn't kept pace with other marques/models on the market, the new S3 has fallen behind even its sister MQB car (or set up differently, the most apparent differences being steering and suspension).

Expectations were too high. Expected more from an "S" car.
Disappointing for Audi in 2015 (or 2013 when it was launched).

Many things we agree on Vee, and some we don't - but I love my S3, admittedly however it's only recently that I've started to take it out just for the hell of it. Still a devastatingly effective car, I just felt it needs to be a bit more "fun"!
On subject of Golf R geometry - does this actually make a difference, without knackering tyres and suspension?

 

[batch]

How about a selfie from my holiday last year to lighten the mood.......................??!!

I would. Five-Pinter admittedly, but I would...

 

[Tony1982]

How about a selfie from my holiday last year to lighten the mood.......................??!!

Ooh sailor

 

[veeeight]

On subject of Golf R geometry - does this actually make a difference, without knackering tyres and suspension?

You'd have to ask the guys that have done this, I believe @Dandanfings is one of those!

I think the main difference is camber, maybe a bit of toe adjustment too.

 

[veeeight]

This has been on the forum before but what the hell I enjoyed it, and I loved seeing the Golf being dismissed early on and no mention of understeer here! But what would they know hey??!! obviously you'll have to skip to the relevant parts

This was also posted in the forum at the time:


Firstly, it was always going to be a Senna v Prost showdown, no matter what. That was the whole point of getting those two there.

Prost had to have the Renault, Senna had the S3 because his first ever car was a S3. But no matter what cars they ended up in, they would have been the last two cars standing!

How then, to eliminate the quicker Leon and Golf?

Simple - The only car that started in Launch Control was the S3, both the lighter Leon and Golf didn't start with LC in the first segment, the autotest. Heck, they even let the Megane have 2 goes because the first attempt was rubbish!

The other sleight of hand that they played was in calling the Golf "heavier" - in the kerb (unladed) weights - VW always include a 75kg driver, Audi don't, so on paper the Golf is heavier (because they include the weight of the driver).

Fairly straightforward from now, the Megane out-corners and out-brakes the S3 on that circuit, and the S3 claws back position on the straights because it has more power (and traction)............. but on the the last drag to the finish....... it doesn't make it up! How convenient!


And that.... is how to make an exciting entertaining TV piece. But not a benchmarking exercise. It's all about the Senna v Prost showdown.

 

[Flatoot]

"Has a greater propensity to understeer" means that t does understeer more readily than similar or 'lesser' cars.
In English, it's an inclusive term, it means that the S3 does understeer.
And now we're getting somewhere. Yes. I'm glad you agree that the S3 understeers at its limits.
Nobody was suggesting otherwise.
Those limits just happen to be lower in an S3, compared to say a Fiesta ST, Megane RS or Golf R, given the same bends and conditions.
But that's a whole new can of worms.

Well, you've suddenly changed your tune then if that's the case as I'm sure you said a few months back that it understeered like no ones business. So now it's - "it'll understeer more than it's competitors if all are pushed to the ragged edge of speed versus grip".

If that's a true statement, which frankly, I'm not really too concerned about - then fine. Let's pack this in and get on with the rest of our weekend.

If I want 10% less understeer from a fanny rag of a car like a Fiesta ST, then I'd have bought one (apologies to anyone who owns one btw!!). A Renault? Err, no thanks. A Golf R? Did look at one, but they do have a whiff of boy racer about them and residual is gonna be lower than an S3.

Ultimately, you are talking 'fine margins' and I am talking about, out-of-the-box handling performance when driven like it should be. Not
'driven to destruction', or 'stacked up against other cars on a dry track'.

So, bottom line is, it understeers. Every single car known to mankind will. Does it understeer as a trait, to the extent that it looks like a design feckup? No.

And on that bomb shell.......

 

[Flatoot]

You'd have to ask the guys that have done this, I believe @Dandanfings is one of those!

I think the main difference is camber, maybe a bit of toe adjustment too.

Don't forget the furry dice and the sticker of the 'Ring' on the boot

 

[batch]

This was also posted in the forum at the time:


Firstly, it was always going to be a Senna v Prost showdown, no matter what. That was the whole point of getting those two there.

Prost had to have the Renault, Senna had the S3 because his first ever car was a S3. But no matter what cars they ended up in, they would have been the last two cars standing!

How then, to eliminate the quicker Leon and Golf?

Simple - The only car that started in Launch Control was the S3, both the lighter Leon and Golf didn't start with LC in the first segment, the autotest. Heck, they even let the Megane have 2 goes because the first attempt was rubbish!

The other sleight of hand that they played was in calling the Golf "heavier" - in the kerb (unladed) weights - VW always include a 75kg driver, Audi don't, so on paper the Golf is heavier (because they include the weight of the driver).

Fairly straightforward from now, the Megane out-corners and out-brakes the S3 on that circuit, and the S3 claws back position on the straights because it has more power (and traction)............. but on the the last drag to the finish....... it doesn't make it up! How convenient!


And that.... is how to make an exciting entertaining TV piece. But not a benchmarking exercise. It's all about the Senna v Prost showdown.

Was ****** great to watch though and it did show that the S3 is a damn good car. Senna loved it!

 

[veeeight]

Well, you've suddenly changed your tune then if that's the case as I'm sure you said a few months back that it understeered like no ones business. So now it's - "it'll understeer more than it's competitors if all are pushed to the ragged edge of speed versus grip".

My position has always been consistent - in the thread you refer to (Aug 2015), my opening line was
"The S3 has poor grip and understeers in the dry easily too, relative to some other cars."

and I am talking about, out-of-the-box handling performance when driven like it should be.

And so am I. Out of the box, the S3 understeers more than other cars in its sector.
Exactly my words in post #11 of this thread.

So, bottom line is, it understeers.

*Faints*

Does it understeer as a trait, to the extent that it looks like a design feckup?

Nobody said anything about it being a design feckup. However it is in there, inherently in the design.
You will find this an Audi trait, whether you want to believe this or not.

 

[veeeight]

Was ****** great to watch though and it did show that the S3 is a damn good car. Senna loved it!

He's biased, his fist car was an S3. Sentimental tosh

But yes a good televisual watch

 

[batch]

He's biased, his fist car was an S3. Sentimental tosh

But yes a good televisual watch

By the way, thanks for the advice on the Cantronic. Holy Shizzle!

 

[veeeight]

By the way, thanks for the advice on the Cantronic. Holy Shizzle!

Always glad to be of service, glad it's injected some life/fun into the car for you

 

[Tony1982]

The reason I posted the video (should of said) was because of the over steering Senna got in the s3 on the high speed corner at 25:25 and then his comment at 25:40 about it.

Also, every single car review on TV or in magazines etc etc is biased in some shape or form. What I liked about this was there was no mention of price which seems to be where the S3 always seems to fall short in most reviews in comparison to similar cars. And yeah this one really does show that the S3 is a ****** good car wether u like it or not.

 

[batch]

Always glad to be of service, glad it's injected some life/fun into the car for you

Yeah, it's helped get over the chronic understeer...

 

[pburv]

This has been on the forum before but what the hell I enjoyed it, and I loved seeing the Golf being dismissed early on and no mention of understeer here! But what would they know hey??!! obviously you'll have to skip to the relevant parts.

Cheers for that.Kept me entertained for 40 or so minutes..

 

[WarwickL]

After all this twattle, regurgitation of links, KB warrior nonsense my car still doesn't UNDERSTEER.

Damn thing must be a freak.

I love freaks.

Love you too V8 and flatoot.

Oh wait, now it all makes sense

 

[veeeight]

my car still doesn't UNDERSTEER.

Drive faster

 

[veeeight]

Also, every single car review on TV or in magazines etc etc is biased in some shape or form.

Yes, it was particularly cheeky of them to start the S3 off in Launch Control, but not the Golf R

 

[WarwickL]

Drive faster

Why ?

Only the young, dumb and full of 'come' try to finish fast

 

[veeeight]

So you can experience the Audi Terminal Understeer

 

[Tony1982]

Why ?

Only the young, dumb and full of 'come' try to finish fast

I think he's about to swallow his tongue!

 

[Tony1982]

Yes, it was particularly cheeky of them to start the S3 off in Launch Control, but not the Golf R

Agreed, but I'm not complaining lol was it a manual golf though? Can't remember!

 

[veeeight]

Agreed, but I'm not complaining lol was it a manual golf though? Can't remember!

DSG

Hence particularly cheeky !

 

[Tony1982]

Fair one

 

[veeeight]

Makes good TV

 

[Blackwhite]

Three pages and no one has even mentioned "unicorns".

 

[perazzi]

There's something going on here...

By the nature of our meeting place, we're passionate about our cars, that's a given.

I'd suggest that to a greater or lesser degree we all bought them to feed the need for a bit of quality and speed - where appropriate of course.

How can 'we enthusiasts' feel so much difference in our respective cars?

I know understeer. For the past three years I've driven, hard, and tracked a Stg1 8P S3 - wet, dry, whatever (with ESP off) you very easily learned to drive through it's understeer (it communicated loss of grip very well, which the 8V doesn't! - leastways not until the arrival of lift off O/S. Not funny in a road car imo.) My 8V S3, so far - and I've not realy touched the outer limits, not had the space - shows very little signs of understeer.

And yet, I'm very much an admirer of the quality and knowledge behind the likes of V8's postings (and others - just he shouts the loudest ), so how are all experiencing different things? How is that fundamental difference so, er, different?

It's like we're driving different cars. How can that be?

(Mine has a trait of making me nervous on a braking downhill lefthander when unweighted at the back and as far as I can tell, the front's on the limit of adhesion. Nada in the steering feel department is my biggest moan.)

 

[veeeight]

Many variables?

Saloon v HB/SB rides differently.

With or without mag ride?

State of roads? Uneven broken surfaces are the worst. Grippy Tarmac the best.

Tyre pressures.

Wheel alignment. (Audi can't even manage to set up headlamps in the factory, what hope accurate geometry )

For sure the 8V Understeers less than the 8P. But it is also more tail happy.

Also - some people never feel the bouncy castle effect, simply because they never experience a particular set of mid bend undulations at speed. I'd say the biggest factor is the roads that you drive on.

I have a particular set of roundabouts near me, one grips very well, the other is like a skating rink.
But even on the grippy one, I can get the rear to come round on a hot dry day at 35mph.

I don't know the answer, these are just suggestions

This is why I have a set route, that I drive every car on, so that I can make as near as dammit a true A/B comparison between different cars.

 

[perazzi]

I drive a three door, no mag ride, standard. Pitches like a ******* on a wobbly road, even at legal speeds ***. (I'd really like to fix that.) But so far, I've not experienced understeer. I'll reserve judgement as to where the limits present themselves once I get it on a track. You're right about the tail end though although I think that's something you'd eventually learn to drive around. Or file an insurance claim.