S3 Understeer, Mermaids and Unicorns

[veeeight]

Right, I'm starting a collection for V8. Can we have a whip round to buy him a new set of tyres? Poor loon has been driving around on slicks obviously.

Sigh.

Tyres aren't the only factor in determining grip, geometry, steering and suspension setup also play a large part.

Hence why some members of this forum are delighted with the front end grip when they set their S3's up with the Golf 7R's geometry.

But I guess you already know that (the first part) - and refuse to believe that setting the car up away from Audi's factory settings (which isn't set up for driver engagement) isn't a waste of time.

 

[Daveotto]

Come on guys It's Christmas, nearly!

 

[A3_Rider]

Man, never eat onions on their own my eyes are watering!!!

I had a highly charged intellectual input on how S3s handle, instead I'll just say:

THE S3 DOES UNDERSTEER!!

 

[WarwickL]

MY S3 DOESN'T UNDERSTEER.

Does that help ?

 

[WarwickL]

Actually, DOESN'T OVERSTEER EITHER.

Such a neutral biatch

 

[veeeight]

Mine can understeer
And
(Lift off) oversteer (there's video on this forum somewhere)

But obviously not simultaneously !

 

[mfl]

Its all relative - does the S3 understeer like a Toyota Camry no,

but going into corners at a decent speed you certainly feel the weight transfer to the outside front wheel , which does require more lock to get round the corner, which to me is understeer, the back end of the car ain't going to be steeping any time soon, to balance out the understeer. (lift off oversteer not withstanding).

On a track day, you'll notice the understeer !

It's long been known, that main-stream manufacturers build cars with built in under steer as a safety feature . 99% of the population can't drive, let alone handle oversteer.

 

[WarwickL]

Go read the first post mfl

V8 took it elsewhere

Edit - well, he is 'elsewhere'

Time to get some late brekkie

 

[veeeight]

Actually - in Post #15 - I said:

It's all relative.

The S3 will understeer into corners at lower speeds, compared to some other cars.

Go read the first post mfl
V8 took it elsewhere

And perhaps you should read some of the other threads linked earlier to understand why the OP has such a (defensive) bee in his bonnet. And why "elsewhere" is relevant.

 

[mfl]

Go read the first post mfl

V8 took it elsewhere

I actually read the entire thread, I am just as entitled to my comment as anyone else's .

 

[WarwickL]

Nah mfl, I wasn't referring to your comments negatively and in fact your comments agreed with the original post, hence my suggestion to read it

 

[Flatoot]

Why would anyone want to change the geometry of the stock S3 to mimic the Golf? A regular attendee of track days perhaps? That's the only reason I could see, as on the roads, in normal day to day running, the S3 is absolutely, 100% capable of getting round corners.

Take your car from the unknown, unpredictable nature of the road, on to the controlled conditions of a track, and OF COURSE you'll get it to understeer. The best setup racing car will understeer if you push it too hard into a corner. Most definitely in the wet. Is this what Audi designed their cars around? Nope. Do they intend them for 99.9% of what people buy them for? Yes.

So for folks to come on to forums and say that cars understeer - yes, they will. If driven in such a manner and conditions that make it physically impossible for a tyre to retain grip.

But that's not the point of this thread. No need to provide links to some guy that's taken it onto track and done back to back tests with an M1 or whatever. Everyone who owns an S3, in standard form, with decent tyres, will tell you it doesn't show any signs of understeer if you drive it normally.

As for cars being designed with understeer as default. This is nonsense. What they may do is ensure that it has less oversteer than understeer, to ensure it doesn't have tail happy performance. The exception may be Caterham, who are more than happy for you to get the back end out.

But trying to keep this thread on point, driven on normal roads, whether they be dry or wet. Driven in standard trim, no messing about with ride height, stiffness or whatever. Driven as most normal, average drivers of mid performance motors do where they enter a corner the same as they would in any normal car, not lifting off mid corner, not trying some funky manoeuvre to get the car's setup to change......

THE S3 DOES NOT UNDERSTEER.

If your S3 does understeer, then see above paragraph and feel free to let us know which of the reasons for it doing so, apply to you.

I've been driving for 30 years, having raced karts, which are the most difficult form of racing to set up, have owned handfuls of sports bikes and generally, driven in all conditions God is likely to throw at you. And sorry if that sounds like I'm bumming myself up - I'm not. I'm giving an honest account of someone with real life experience. To that end, I think I'm more than qualified to tell V8 and others that they are speaking cobblers. Utter cobblers. Period.

 

[veeeight]

There is very little point haven't any sort of discussion, because you are blindly refusing to accept any feedback from owners posted on this forum, and instead choosing to believe your own dogma.

The S3 Understeers.
The front end grip is less/poor, compared to some other cars in this segment.
In this respect, the S3 will more readily understeer relative to other better set up cars.

 

[Tony1982]

Nothing against you Flatoot, and I hate to agree with V8 as I truly believe him to be an argumentative know it all troll who quite frankly should just ****** off to the VW forums and stay (I have him on my ignore list but still can guess what his input is when reading a thread), but the S3 does understeer, I wouldn't go as far as saying it's particularly bad for it like he will forcefully try have you believe. Simple fact is you can make pretty much any car understeer if you drive enough like an idiot. If you look back through mr V8's history it's clear he does and pushes his car to the limit most of the time, that's the impression I get anyway. I've done 11k miles in my S3, I've got to the point where I understand how it handles and reacts to my input - pretty much always does what I want it to and is a fine handling motor, and if there is a bit of damp on the road it's easy to get it drifting and oversteering if you want it to (not lift off), yes there are better handling cars out there but there's a lot more a hell of a lot worse.

 

[WarwickL]

300km drive today through the mountains - didn't UNDERSTEER once. Damn, need to complain to the dealer.

 

[veeeight]

1' 32" - "99% of vehicles created today have understeer dialled into their suspension"

 

[veeeight]

"Many cars are designed to have a tendency to under steer."
http://www.koni.com/car-racing/technology/over-under-steer/


"Automobile engineers are well aware of this and purposely design understeer into every production car out there."
http://www.vrgonline.org/school/articles/skid_control.pdf


"Most auto manufacturers build understeer into the suspension because it is safer"
from "High Performance Handling for Street or Track" - Don Alexander page 11

 

[veeeight]

And in case anyone is wondering whether to fit new tyres to the front or rear of the car:

The correct answer in the vast majority of cases, is rear.

http://www.michelincertifiedcentre.co.uk/tyresafety/new-to-the-rear.aspx
http://www.goodyear.com/email/faq/care.html#q9
http://www.tyresafe.org/media-centre/latest-news/69-motorists-get-their-tyres-“back-to-front”
http://kumhotyre.co.uk/kumho-news/should-you-fit-new-tyres-to-the-front-or-rear/
http://www.btmauk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Replacing-car-tyres-important-information.pdf
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html
https://www.kwik-fit.com/tyres/information/tyre-rotation

 

[batch]

Actually, DOESN'T OVERSTEER EITHER.

Such a neutral biatch

Get off the f***ing fence Warwick!

 

[batch]

Can't believe this has all kicked off AGAIN...
For my 2p worth, I find the 8V far less prone to it than my old 8P, both cars have been improved by simply fitting Eibach Spring sets to them (yes @veeeight I know that if I did more it would make a more significant difference! ) and whilst the 8V is vastly improved in balance over the 8P chassis, I still initially found it a bit nose happy. However I will say that it wasn't critical, or dangerous (don't get me started on the pogoing!) but made a spirited drive harder work and less fun.
The additional power and torque from my Cantronic has finally made the car more playful, I think it's exploiting a fine chassis better with the extra ooomph.
So yeah I'm actually on the fence a bit and can see both sides. Understeer is definitely a characteristic of the car but I wouldn't say it's major.

 

[perazzi]

Is there any possibility that we're driving differently set-up cars?

There was an EVO article hinting at tweaks to M4s (I think) after reports of too lairy handling; no mention of any changes, just fixed.

 

[veeeight]

Saloon is slightly less prone to understeer, compared with HB/SB.

(You can read all about owners experiences in the links in post #23)

 

[batch]

Oh and by the way, Mermaids handle well... Just grip is an issue

 

[Flatoot]

Nothing against you Flatoot, and I hate to agree with V8 as I truly believe him to be an argumentative know it all troll who quite frankly should just ****** off to the VW forums and stay (I have him on my ignore list but still can guess what his input is when reading a thread), but the S3 does understeer, I wouldn't go as far as saying it's particularly bad for it like he will forcefully try have you believe. Simple fact is you can make pretty much any car understeer if you drive enough like an idiot. If you look back through mr V8's history it's clear he does and pushes his car to the limit most of the time, that's the impression I get anyway. I've done 11k miles in my S3, I've got to the point where I understand how it handles and reacts to my input - pretty much always does what I want it to and is a fine handling motor, and if there is a bit of damp on the road it's easy to get it drifting and oversteering if you want it to (not lift off), yes there are better handling cars out there but there's a lot more a hell of a lot worse.

11k miles on your tyres and I'd be suggesting that they may be past their best. Anyone who watches F1 will know of the drop off in performance of tyres and it's not really any different to production tyres.

However, getting back to the initial point, which V8 is trying to derail with this understeer is designed into cars bull, is that, over 4k in my 3 month old S3, understeer is not a prevalent behaviour. That's it. End of the debate really as far as I'm concerned. Either you are entering a corner WAY too fast for the type of vehicle you are driving, or the tyres are past their best.

To pacify V8 and his attempt to derail the thread and divert attention away from his claims that the S3 is a dog of an understeering beast.... manufacturer's simply do not 'design in understeer as a safety feature'. The safest engineering philosophy is to design or setup a car that has 50/50 balance. Anything else is preposterous to imagine a qualified automative engineer would think about something different. Some may like their cars tail happy which is a lot easier to live with it's a 911 or a Caterham. Others may like the knowledge that they will get a warning from the front end if they attack the corner with too much speed. But neither, unless you spend your life driving like someone from Tokyo Drift, are the desired product of sound engineering. a balanced car with neither is what you want it achieve. I feel the S3 has pretty much perfect balance, unless I'm pushing it beyond what it was designed for, or the conditions are such that it's just simply not possible to get grip (wet, slippery, ice, snow).

Everything has limitations in the way it should work and it's designed to work within tolerances. The S3 is perhaps a car that you don't realise what speed you're approaching a corner at, but certainly no overwhelming 'oh f**k' moments that make me think I've bought a basket case of a car. Far from it.

 

[veeeight]

There is no attempt to derail anything. It is a demonstration of just how wrong you are with your held beliefs.


Which are:
1. Denying the S3 understeers
Yes it does. (Post #23)

2. Denying all modern cars are set up to understeer
Yes they are.(Post #56, 57)

3. Denying new tyres go on the rears
Yes they do. (Post #58)

4. It's a waste of time changing the setup of your car
No it isn't (plenty of evidence on this forum from owners)

5. It's a waste of time installing aftermarket parts on your car
No it isn't (plenty of evidence on this forum from owners)

6. The IAM and all their members, are "fruitcakes" and "tossers"
Well, that's your view I suppose.


All the above simply demonstrates that your beliefs and views simply do not relate to the (this) real world.

 

[veeeight]

The safest engineering philosophy is to design or setup a car that has 50/50 balance.

Again, No, it isn't.


A 50:50 balanced car does not translate into neutral handling. Especially not for FWD cars, or unless you wholly experience constant radius, constant speed bends all of the time.
I suggest you go back to suspension and handling school.

(Ross Bentley)

(Firestone via Wikipedia)


The S3 is nose heavy (and the RS3 even more so). This is one of the reasons why the S3 and RS3 have a propensity to understeer.

 

[Simon L]

There is no right or wrong answer to this one for the simple reason it comes down to perceived understeer.

Of course it's built into the S3, same as pretty much every other Audi model, practically every review you can think of has discussed it to a greater or lesser extent. However, whether you notice it day to day is the real question. Personally I don't but I fully accept that others do. This is largely down to driving style again..............again!!

So neither of you are technically wrong.....................'shake hands' and move on................

 

[veeeight]

I can do better than "perceived" understeer........


All you need to do is to watch the steering wheel angle (with respect to the direction the car is actually taking) on this car




Now, one of the plusses of the S3 over the RS3, is that it understeers a lot less, despite the RS3 having wider tyres on the front!

 

[Simon L]

 

[veeeight]

And lets be clear that you can breakdown the understeer issue further -

1. Corner entry understeer (where excessive speed into the corner plays a role)
2. Corner exit understeer (where you cannot put down the power because it drifts wide)

At the end of the day, it all boils down to (in addition to driver input) several factors, tyres, tread, sidewalls, suspension & geometry setup. Some cars understeer more than others, in both situations above.

 

[CraigI]

Wow. Great thread. Lots of nonsense within and only on page two.
OP coming in on a high horse, taking the moral high ground and ending up sounding just as bad as the people he is targeting this all at..........

 

[Tony1982]

11k miles on your tyres and I'd be suggesting that they may be past their best.

lol I'm sure they wouldn't be all that bad if I had done 11k miles on a single set as most of the time I drive quite sensibly (most of the time). But no I changed my tyres after about 5k miles to a set michelins (always hated conti's and was planned from the day I collected it). I've since changed again to some winter tyres for the cold season (done about 1k on them and the michelins have done about 5k, they'll now sit in storage for the next 3-4 months). I must admit the winters I have on now aren't that good right now, but that's down to us not having the conditions they're designed for yet (still no unexpected under steer), they'll come into their own once the snow and frost comes

I can't really put 2pence in with regards to manufactures designing cars to under steer, I really wouldn't know.

 

[Flatoot]

I can do better than "perceived" understeer........


All you need to do is to watch the steering wheel angle (with respect to the direction the car is actually taking) on this car




Now, one of the plusses of the S3 over the RS3, is that it understeers a lot less, despite the RS3 having wider tyres on the front!

THIS IS ON A RACE TRACK!!! Do you drive to work on a race track?

Actually, can you actually drive? Are you over 17?

 

[Flatoot]

There is no right or wrong answer to this one for the simple reason it comes down to perceived understeer.

Of course it's built into the S3, same as pretty much every other Audi model, practically every review you can think of has discussed it to a greater or lesser extent. However, whether you notice it day to day is the real question. Personally I don't but I fully accept that others do. This is largely down to driving style again..............again!!

So neither of you are technically wrong.....................'shake hands' and move on................

Exactly. And those that are experience major understeer are obviously piling into corners way too fast.

 

[veeeight]

THIS IS ON A RACE TRACK!!! Do you drive to work on a race track?

Funnily enough, a car will still understeer or oversteer, whether on a track or not.

All you need is a bend or corner.

 

[Flatoot]

Wow. Great thread. Lots of nonsense within and only on page two.
OP coming in on a high horse, taking the moral high ground and ending up sounding just as bad as the people he is targeting this all at..........

Targetting feck all mate - other than the main protagonist who is hell bent on saying the S3 has terrible understeer.

Listen, I've driven dozens upon dozens of cars over the years, and have absolutely no vested interest in covering up something that the S3 may have. In this case, understeer. For some, they may be experiencing it. As others have said, it's all down to driving style, as it can't be anything else. Those that have it, must surely be driving way different to how a car should be driven on the road. How do I know this?

CAUSE I OWN AN S3 THAT DOESN'T UNDERSTEER!!!!!

Whoop whoop for me then, and didums for the likes of V8. But don't speak **** and wind about something that simply doesn't exist under normal circumstances.

 

[Flatoot]

Funnily enough, a car will still understeer or oversteer, whether on a track or not.

All you need is a bend or corner.

A car won't understeer or oversteers unless you force it in to that situation or the conditions are such that they can't cope. Normal road, normal conditions, normal driving - the S3 doesn't understeer.

The above statement by yourself proves to me that you don't have a scooby.

 

[veeeight]

It either exists, or doesn't exist.

Not "it only exists on a racetrack" - but not on a road.

Driver input is only ONE of the many factors that determine whether a car understeers or not.

The salient point, which you seem to be failing to grasp - is that the S3 has a greater propensity to understeer under road conditions, than other similar or 'lesser' cars, eg. Fiesta ST or Golf R.

Which is a shame, for a supposedly hot/hyper/premium hatch.

 

[Flatoot]

It either exists, or doesn't exist.

Not "it only exists on a racetrack" - but not on a road.

Driver input is only ONE of the many factors that determine whether a car understeers or not.

The salient point, which you seem to be failing to grasp - is that the S3 has a greater propensity to understeer under road conditions, than other similar or 'lesser' cars, eg. Fiesta ST or Golf R.

Which is a shame.

No, the point is that on a race track, you can push the car to it's limits as you have run off areas - not trees or cliffs to crash off or in to. I don't treat any track test of a car with any real seriousness at all, based on the fact that none of us drive cars on the race track in normal life.

You've basically shot yourself in the foot with the part in bold.... it has a greater chance of understeer - not it HAS understeer. It doesn't HAVE understeer. It handles perfectly fine. If you're a young lad full of testosterone and trying to impress your mates - then sure, come on here and tell us that your Saturday night race around town had you understeering all over the place.
Back in the real world, as I twist and turn around the back roads of Scotland, I can provide reassurance to anyone thinking of buying an S3, that IT SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE. Drive like a bell end - your car will get out of shape. Drive it with smooth power application (slow in, fast out), and you'll not experience a jot of understeer from the AWD system.

End of.

 

[CraigI]

Targetting feck all mate - other than the main protagonist who is hell bent on saying the S3 has terrible understeer.

Listen, I've driven dozens upon dozens of cars over the years, and have absolutely no vested interest in covering up something that the S3 may have. In this case, understeer. For some, they may be experiencing it. As others have said, it's all down to driving style, as it can't be anything else. Those that have it, must surely be driving way different to how a car should be driven on the road. How do I know this?

CAUSE I OWN AN S3 THAT DOESN'T UNDERSTEER!!!!!

Whoop whoop for me then, and didums for the likes of V8. But don't speak **** and wind about something that simply doesn't exist under normal circumstances.

I believe you, you know way more than any of the rest of us, given your vast past experiences in many different areas of driving.
I think the mods should close this thread, its been categorically confirmed that the S3 does not understeer.

I for one am happy, if you think the S3 is perfect then I have the perfect car!
Whoo-hoo!