250bhp+ from a KO3s???

JS1500

Howdy
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
1,159
Reaction score
11
Points
36
Location
Granite house, Granite City.
I'm just speaking to a guy on my local VW forum who reckons a KO3s equipped Ibiza will make 235-250bhp easy (with supporting mods).
Any chance of this? I've said maybe 235, which I think is Prawns KO3s'd, Stage Two, well-sorted A3 figure and the highest i've seen from a KO3s'd car... but I can't imagine a KO3s being able to flow enough for 250bhp+ (?).
His mate reckons his Ibiza with KO3s made 259bhp at a rolling road day - dyno lottery?!
 
His mate reckons his Ibiza with KO3s made 259bhp at a rolling road day - dyno lottery?!

When a pig flies overhead, on a night which is showing a blue moon, and it must be a Wednesday when both of those happen, I'll believe that.

dyno-lottery.jpg
 
Then again ko3 hybrids which is pretty much a ko4 in ko3 fitmwnt make up to 280 don't they, so that shows the flow capabilities of ko3 fitment considering standard ko4's don't achieve that
 
259bhp is the sort of figure I would expect from a K03 hybrid... I think either the Ibiza owner doesn't know what he has or is not letting on... most I have seen from a K03s with a lot of supporting mods is in the 235bhp on Bill's dyno....

<tuffty/>
 
Then again ko3 hybrids which is pretty much a ko4 in ko3 fitmwnt make up to 280 don't they, so that shows the flow capabilities of ko3 fitment considering standard ko4's don't achieve that

That's to do with the manifold more than the turbo flow potential itself mate. The K03 manifold has a much better flow rate than it's (*****) K04 cousin.

The additional HP tends to come from the higher flow capability at that point.
 
He's just put graphs up.
Now this is with the same place I had mine dyno'd, but his was done before they moved to a new building... dyno maybe recalibrated?

RR110807.jpg


2598wbhp2347whp2479lb-ft.jpg
 
so by changing the manifold to a free flow manifold could i be looking at 230-240 from a k03s with custom map and forge tip with 3" down pipe and full 3" system with 200 cell cat.

just so i have an idea of what it will run
 
so by changing the manifold to a free flow manifold could i be looking at 230-240 from a k03s with custom map and forge tip with 3" down pipe and full 3" system with 200 cell cat.

just so i have an idea of what it will run

I'd say in the 235 region tops personally. The K03 manifold flows very well out of the box. You won't get that much gain from one of the high flow manifolds IIRC.
 
as long as i get s3 or more power im happy wish i just bought a s3 now but love the colour of my car
 
One of my mates had Jabba map his MK4 Golf GTI with K03S, FMIC, TIP, turbo back exhaust with sports cat, CAI at about 250 but this is Jabba so they`ve obviously done the usual and raped the life out of it to get the very max they could.
 
I'm just speaking to a guy on my local VW forum who reckons a KO3s equipped Ibiza will make 235-250bhp easy (with supporting mods).
Any chance of this? I've said maybe 235, which I think is Prawns KO3s'd, Stage Two, well-sorted A3 figure and the highest i've seen from a KO3s'd car... but I can't imagine a KO3s being able to flow enough for 250bhp+ (?).
His mate reckons his Ibiza with KO3s made 259bhp at a rolling road day - dyno lottery?!

crok of preverbial.
same dyno which makes a k03s "imagine" this power would have you believe a remapped 225 will be 290-300bhp

Not realistic
 
Then again ko3 hybrids which is pretty much a ko4 in ko3 fitmwnt make up to 280 don't they, so that shows the flow capabilities of ko3 fitment considering standard ko4's don't achieve that

they DONT achieve 280bhp without wmi... which a decent stage 2 K04 car with wmi could manage also
250-260bhp is what k03 hybrids achieve... and they do in my experience make slightly more power for the same level of tune then their k04 cousins, in part to the k03 exhaust manifold flowing better
 
Cheers for your input folks, especially Welly and Bill.
Pretty much what I thought then - you've all taught me well the last 18 months!

It's not my aim to make the guy look daft on the other forum so i'm just saying "Oooh, nice graphs".
Diplomacy!
 
That's 259bhp at the engine... How exactly do you measure it at the engine? =P

I know some places do coast down tests to try and measure drivetrain losses, but I've never had much faith in them. Anyway, who cares what your engine is putting out, it's only what the wheels are putting out that matters.

Just as info for me, when you guys are talking about power figures for your own car, do you mean wheels or engine?
 
Usually engine, agreed its how it drives on the road more than any dyno....but we would not have decent maps if there were no dynos ...
Can our ecus except live programming on the road?
 
Dynos measure power at the wheels buddy!

Only way to measure it at the engine is to have the engine out of the car and on a dedicated engine dyno... even so, it's pointless unless you're looking at minimising powertrain losses (I'd be interested if anyone here has looked into it for their S3 tbh).
 
Dynos measure power at the wheels buddy!

Only way to measure it at the engine is to have the engine out of the car and on a dedicated engine dyno... even so, it's pointless unless you're looking at minimising powertrain losses (I'd be interested if anyone here has looked into it for their S3 tbh).
you asked about peoples power figs, ?? I meant must people give the engine hp ....
 
Last edited:
im sure dynos measure both at the wheels and at the fly (engine)? most people refer to their fwhp when talking about their power figures, not many go on whp
 
Dynos do not measure power at the flywheel. They can't even measure power directly at the wheels!

Dynos measure the resistance required to match the torque at the wheels. It then calculates torque at the wheels and then calculates power at the wheels by using the following formula:

HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252 (i.e. Torque = Power @ 5252rpm in BHP & lbs.ft)

The dyno operator will nail the throttle in 3rd or 4th gear to give you a sweep of power and torque at the wheels through the rev range. The operator will then dip the clutch and measure the rate at which the rollers decelerate. This is supposed to measure the losses from the power train (between the wheels and flywheel) through friction and non-100%-efficient power transmission methods (gears/chains/CV joints etc.). However, it's pretty obvious that all of the friction/losses from inside the engine (upstream of the flywheel) are also included in this number estimated. Nevermind the fact that the dyno is only measuring this effect from the peak rpm of the engine, where friction will be highest.

The dyno computer then adds this estimate of power train loss to the entire rev range to provide your power/torque curves. If you can't already see why these numbers are a complete guess, I haven't mentioned the several "correction factors" which they use entirely at their own discretion.

Power at the wheels is Dyno Lottery, power at the flywheel is pure fiction imo ;)
 
Dynos do not measure power at the flywheel. They can't even measure power directly at the wheels!

Dynos measure the resistance required to match the torque at the wheels. It then calculates torque at the wheels and then calculates power at the wheels by using the following formula:

HP = Torque x RPM � 5252 (i.e. Torque = Power @ 5252rpm in BHP & lbs.ft)

The dyno operator will nail the throttle in 3rd or 4th gear to give you a sweep of power and torque at the wheels through the rev range. The operator will then dip the clutch and measure the rate at which the rollers decelerate. This is supposed to measure the losses from the power train (between the wheels and flywheel) through friction and non-100%-efficient power transmission methods (gears/chains/CV joints etc.). However, it's pretty obvious that all of the friction/losses from inside the engine (upstream of the flywheel) are also included in this number estimated. Nevermind the fact that the dyno is only measuring this effect from the peak rpm of the engine, where friction will be highest.

The dyno computer then adds this estimate of power train loss to the entire rev range to provide your power/torque curves. If you can't already see why these numbers are a complete guess, I haven't mentioned the several "correction factors" which they use entirely at their own discretion.

Power at the wheels is Dyno Lottery, power at the flywheel is pure fiction imo ;)

******
and thats a technical term
:p

and its not worth my time pointing out how wrong your post is

whatever!
 
as long as i get s3 or more power im happy wish i just bought a s3 now but love the colour of my car

Don't you know the S stands for slow? Or weren't you at the last Badger 5 RR day :laugh:

Also remember Prawns car is a converted AGU so the head will be in his favor, that and the 25psi it was sucking!
 
Last edited:
Ko3 hybrid is that a ko3 turbo with ko4 internals?
 
******
and thats a technical term
:p

and its not worth my time pointing out how wrong your post is

whatever!

I would be genuinely interested to learn if I had any of that wrong, and I'm willing to accept that I might! I almost certainly don't have as much experience with dynos as some people on here, but what I do know, I was taught by the Dyno Dynamics guy who sold my uni a dyno and taught us how to use it. Maybe it was just our software that worked like this, or maybe he just didn't know what he was talking about... :think:
 
I almost certainly don't have as much experience with dynos as some people on here

Bill runs one of the most realistic rollers about at Badger 5, he knows his bizzle. :yes:

I'm sure if we all asked nicely he would explain how this dark art actually works...I always thought that when you put them on the rollers the wheels tell the rollers what air flow the car is making and the rollers just times it by 0.8, thats why the people who use fans get higher BHP figures from the rollers, it tricks them.

:shrug:
 
Last edited:
Bill runs one of the most realistic rollers about at Badger 5, he knows his bizzle. :yes:

I'm sure if we all asked nicely he would explain how this dark art actually works...I always thought that when you put them on the rollers the wheels tell the rollers what air flow the car is making and the rollers just times it by 0.8, thats why the people who use fans get higher BHP figures from the rollers, it tricks them.

:shrug:


:lmfao:
 
Last edited:
I would be genuinely interested to learn if I had any of that wrong, and I'm willing to accept that I might! I almost certainly don't have as much experience with dynos as some people on here, but what I do know, I was taught by the Dyno Dynamics guy who sold my uni a dyno and taught us how to use it. Maybe it was just our software that worked like this, or maybe he just didn't know what he was talking about... :think:

Take your example further....

Run the same car with differing tyre pressures, different transmission temperatures or even in a different gear, and the wheel power figures will change wildly. The coast down measurements the Dyno makes are there specifically to remove as much of those variables as possible, and the resulting crank figures should all be pretty close, even though the wheel figures are all over the place.

Yes, its not perfect. But its as close as your going to get, and its certainly more accurate than a wheel power figure, because its so easy to fiddle them.
 
I would be genuinely interested to learn if I had any of that wrong, and I'm willing to accept that I might! I almost certainly don't have as much experience with dynos as some people on here, but what I do know, I was taught by the Dyno Dynamics guy who sold my uni a dyno and taught us how to use it. Maybe it was just our software that worked like this, or maybe he just didn't know what he was talking about... :think:

Mike, nice guy that he is, is a very good PR man for DD type rollers and how they are "the best" etc etc....... He was of course selling them, so they would'nt be anything other than that.

DD, are a pet hate dyno, as when you really dig into these, how they work, what they measure, how they measure etc etc, you get past the sales pitch and see the truth.

DD only measure atw. atw figures, much as US cousins and DD dyno fans are not the "defacto" fool proof ONLY Proper way of dynoing..
DD measure their atw figure, and depending on the transmission type told to the dyno, "adds" its factor to report a "flywheel figure". This is no better than adding x% to the atw figure to get your "estimate" of fly figure.. And this is said to be accurate? Really?

Atw figures, will alter with temps, tyre pressures, make of tyres, speeds run (gear used for example), and will change.
My dyno measures atw, and also coastdowns... and you see the atw figures change with temps and runs.... as of course you would expect as things warm up in the drive train. If only measuing atw and adding the % factor, this simply cannot be as accurate, and rolling losses are not measured, and a % factor is applied to "estimate" tge fly figure.. So to differ in opinion to you, coastdown losses, are meaningfull, and the more questionable figures are those dynos which only measure atw with no account of coastdowns.

2 cars recently on my dyno.. both gave 355atw figures, but differing fly losses, and the drivetrains/tyres etc were the difference... If on a DD they would have been given the same @fly figure, but were quite different overall.

Where DD rollers, in their own promo video's they show you, show cars riding up onto the front roller, halving the contact patch, yet will report the atw figures as being "ACCURATE" when they clearly only had half the frictional loss when riding onto the one roller, typifies the scenario I describe.

My own dyno is a Dastek/SunRam hybrid.. mongrel of sorts, but measures std cars at std power, and remapped ones at Realistic, not BS high figures, and often correlates mass airflow to predicted power with a few %.

Its a tuning tool at the end of the day, and Dyno Lottery of course applies..

To describe dyno's as you gave with your very broad brush tho, is based on the DD sales pitch and not the wider picture. DD are'nt all that.. I was looking to buy one, and the more I asked the more I did'nt want to buy into their sales pitch. They went bankrupt anyhows...
 
and often correlates mass airflow to predicted power with a few %.

To add to Bill's post above, and give an example, the S3 ran 335 the other day on Bill's dyno, and is making 268 g/s airflow last night on the road.

Work it out for yourself with the /.8 rule...
 

Similar threads

Replies
6
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
1K
Replies
6
Views
775
Replies
22
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
964