Launch without launch control

Peeb

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Can't find the answer to this by searching. Happy to be directed if someone knows where to look.

Im test driving an S3 Stronic tomorrow to see if I like the flappy paddles enough to swap my order from manual.
One thing I'm worried about is making a brisk getaway from traffic lights when needed without resorting to launch control.
i know that DSG lines up reverse and second gear when stationary - because first is on the same shaft as reverse so it can't line up both - and then when it realises that you actually want to go forward it drops to first which can result in a delay in getting going.

Is there a way of telling the car to select first either by putting it in sport mode or selecting first manually? Another way of asking is what's the fastest way to launch without launch control?

cheers
 
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When I come to a stop in Sports mode, the gearbox is in S1. A3 quattro, not S3, but I imagine it's the same. Also, you can just put it in M1 via the stick or the paddles and just floor it - you don't have to worry about changing up, the box will do that for you in manual when you redline.
 
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Fastest way to launch without launch control is dynamic mode and floor it. Don't worry about wheel spin, it won't be there.
 
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i know that DSG lines up reverse and second gear when stationary - because first is on the same shaft as reverse so it can't line up both

Correction - DSG lines up reverse and second gear when stationary AND in PARK or NEUTRAL.

Once you are in "D" it knows you want to go forward - so it will have 1st engaged.



As for making a brisk getaway - select "S", then ONLY light pressure (only enough to stop the car creeping forward) on the brake (so that the clutch is on the bite point) - when you're ready, release the brake pedal, floor the throttle. You won't need LC.


* (If you are sat at the traffic lights with your foot hard on the brake pedal - it moves the clutch away from the bite point, so there will be a slight delay while this takes up)
 
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Fastest way to launch without launch control is dynamic mode and floor it. Don't worry about wheel spin, it won't be there.

And neither will the car that was sat next to you haha. I always have mine in dynamic and either in d or m mode.
 
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Cheers guys. That's what I suspected. Just needed confirmation.
 
Nothing to report I'm afraid as the test drive was cancelled. The car is actually the salesman's own vehicle - not a dealer car - and his fuel pump blew last week. Funny thing is, he only had it refitted at the start of the week because another local S3 sedan blew it's fuel pump and the salesman VERY kindly allowed his to be fitted to the customers car for two weeks while the new one came in from Germany. The service department made sure they parked his car right up against the big floor-to-ceiling window that separates the service area from the sales area. Right behind his desk. Gits.

The S3 sedan has only been in Australia for a few weeks and our dealer would have delivered only a few of cars so far. Needless to say there are whispers in the vestry about a bad batch of pumps and a possible recall. Any other fuel pump issues out there?
 
Correction - DSG lines up reverse and second gear when stationary AND in PARK or NEUTRAL.

Once you are in "D" it knows you want to go forward - so it will have 1st engaged.



As for making a brisk getaway - select "S", then ONLY light pressure (only enough to stop the car creeping forward) on the brake (so that the clutch is on the bite point) - when you're ready, release the brake pedal, floor the throttle. You won't need LC.


* (If you are sat at the traffic lights with your foot hard on the brake pedal - it moves the clutch away from the bite point, so there will be a slight delay while this takes up)

So there is a distinguishable difference between light and heavy brake then and the bite point?
 
Yes, you can watch the engine revs change as you vary brake pressure.
 
This is the one achilies heel of having a turbo car and DSG combination.

Pulling out of a junction at idle revs, zero turbo boost, and the time it takes to spool the turbo plus engage the clutch can make it interesting.

LC isn't an option, as you need the steering wheel to be straight.

In a manual car, you can rev the engine (building some boost) and get out of the junction very quickly by slightly slipping the clutch, but playing around simulating quick junction getaways tonight - I've come to the conclusion that in some situations, the DSG and turbo combo feels like there's too much delay/hesitation.

Once the turbo is spooled it of course goes like a stabbed rat, but that first second, it just feels dead.
 
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This is my concern veeeight. I guess i will just have to try before I buy.
 
In 98% of junctions, there is no problem.
Just the 2% of awkward, blind, busy junctions - you just have to accept this small limitation, and look/wait for a bigger gap. That's all.

This is an occasion where 0-60 times mean jack sh1t, and 0-30 times are more relevant.

With LC 0-50kmh 1.7s
Without LC 0-50kmh 2.3s

Half a second in a 30mph sprint feels like an eternity!

(but all the other pluses of DSG outweigh this negative !!)
 
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This is the one achilies heel of having a turbo car and DSG combination.

Pulling out of a junction at idle revs, zero turbo boost, and the time it takes to spool the turbo plus engage the clutch can make it interesting.

LC isn't an option, as you need the steering wheel to be straight.

In a manual car, you can rev the engine (building some boost) and get out of the junction very quickly by slightly slipping the clutch, but playing around simulating quick junction getaways tonight - I've come to the conclusion that in some situations, the DSG and turbo combo feels like there's too much delay/hesitation.

Once the turbo is spooled it of course goes like a stabbed rat, but that first second, it just feels dead.

Such a spot on post....

I have only done 600 miles in my S3 but there has been a few times at a busy roundabout / junction in my town that I have pulled out where it was clear before only for a car to come zooming towards me out of nowhere. There is that horrible second where you and the oncoming driver lock eyes while the ECU and the DSG try and fathom out your right foot command for full throttle. You then pull away with such a tremendous force that you wonder if the driver that was coming towards you thinks "that was a bit extreme, he had plenty of time to get out of that junction!".

My 7 speed DSG in my previous A1 was a bit quicker in situations like this.......
 
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My 7 speed DSG in my previous A1 was a bit quicker in situations like this.......

Similarly, my 1.2 TSI DSG Ibiza was much faster at launching than any A3 S tronic I've driven. Must be different programming on the box, as it's the same DQ200 unit in theory.
 
In 98% of junctions, there is no problem.
Just the 2% of awkward, blind, busy junctions - you just have to accept this small limitation, and look/wait for a bigger gap. That's all.

This is an occasion where 0-60 times mean jack sh1t, and 0-30 times are more relevant.

With LC 0-50kmh 1.7s
Without LC 0-50kmh 2.3s

Half a second in a 30mph sprint feels like an eternity!

(but all the other pluses of DSG outweigh this negative !!)

If your rolling and creeping forward does that help opposed to a dead start ?
 
My 7 speed DSG in my previous A1 was a bit quicker in situations like this.......

Similarly, my 1.2 TSI DSG Ibiza was much faster at launching than any A3
I think it's a combination of a heavier car (A3/S3) and the bigger turbo needing more time to spool up.
(it's a DQ250 in the S3)



If your rolling and creeping forward does that help opposed to a dead start ?
It help slightly, but not much. Your revs are still at idle, so until you get to above 2000rpm, not a lot of forward motion takes place.
 
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I'm not being fair to the S3 - my A1 had the twin charger engine so a super charger kicked in quick at low revs.

As veeeight says, bigger turbo does mean a delay. First world problems I guess.....lol
 
I think it's a combination of a heavier car (A3/S3) and the bigger turbo needing more time to spool up.
(it's a DQ250 in the S3)




It help slightly, but not much. Your revs are still at idle, so until you get to above 2000rpm, not a lot of forward motion takes place.

Ahh ok, guess it will just take some getting used to. It's not short on power for those roundabout pull outs anyways.
 
3000 miles in, on a S3, and I've made a new discovery.

In "S" - floor the throttle from a standstill, and it will accelerate through the gears, complete with DSG pops/bangs/farts/burps. Each gear change brings a *slight* hesitation as it upshifts with the accompanying noise.

In "LC" mode - Brakes hard on, floor the throttle, 4k revs, release brake, and it will launch and accelerate through the gears, NO DSG pops/bangs/farts/burps. Each gear change/upshift is seamless compared to non-LC mode, with minimal or no hesitation as it upshifts.


This confirms the long held suspicion that the DSG noise is merely a "customer delight feature", and does not play any part in seamless upshifts, nor max. acceleration !
 
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That's a great observation veeeight.

I have noticed that the pops/bangs are next to non-existent when using LC. I found this out by taking a mate out up to an old airfield near me to do some LC's - I made a big song and dance about the noises etc but when we did a sprint it was near enough silent. Fairly brutal launches but noise wise nothing spectacular.

When we left the airfield I put it in Eco mode to show off the coasting feature - when leaving the entrance I booted it and it then made the bangs / pops etc which surprised me a bit in that mode.

my mate thought the car was broken !
 
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Gear changes are definitely faster (and without any lurching) in LC, without the pops/bangs :)
 
I know I will most likely get shouted at here but my solution to the small delay.....
Left foot braking, just give yourself a slight crossover where you are on both pedals. This allows the revs and turbo to build up just enough to lose the delay. I do left foot brake a lot but very rare at the same time, just when you need to guarantee instant departure.
 
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I have to say, I've driven a seat leon with the seven speed dsg gearbox, I ended up with a prefacelift A3 8P with the 6 speed, I don't seem to have a problem coming out of junctions or getting onto roundabouts but I tend to use manual so it picks first rather than want to pick second.

I found in the leon - possibly because it was diesel (so saw a higher torque value) so thought second was fine. but it'd set off in some lazy fashion with my foot mostly mashed then decide to drop down to first - ****** awful in comparison

Also, in drive and manual mode it will fart on gearchanges but in sport mode they are pretty much none existent (even manually over riding) it also seems to change quicker too but i'll have to test this more this coming week!

Mines the 2.0T (for reference)

Alex
 
3000 miles in, on a S3, and I've made a new discovery.

In "S" - floor the throttle from a standstill, and it will accelerate through the gears, complete with DSG pops/bangs/farts/burps. Each gear change brings a *slight* hesitation as it upshifts with the accompanying noise.

In "LC" mode - Brakes hard on, floor the throttle, 4k revs, release brake, and it will launch and accelerate through the gears, NO DSG pops/bangs/farts/burps. Each gear change/upshift is seamless compared to non-LC mode, with minimal or no hesitation as it upshifts.


This confirms the long held suspicion that the DSG noise is merely a "customer delight feature", and does not play any part in seamless upshifts, nor max. acceleration !

Interesting observation, how much difference in terms of hesitation would you say there is, just about noticeable?
 
Interesting observation, how much difference in terms of hesitation would you say there is, just about noticeable?
Very noticeable. In LC mode there is no "lurching" or nodding-dog display from the passengers head. It just pulls strongly all the way.
 
Interesting observation, how much difference in terms of hesitation would you say there is, just about noticeable?

Same observation from me too. In any mode, with hard/ish acceleration, the gear changes feel like a proper manual gear change with throttle lift of, clutch in, upshift, release clutch and throttle in again. That's the 'hesitation' spoke of. With LC, the sensation is of a manual change without any throttle lift of during the change (almost a 'snap-change') if that makes sense.

What I do find is that esp in eco and comfort modes, one can easily confuse the gearbox. I have on occasion while in eco and comfor mode after driving very lightly for a bit, suddenly use half to full throttle, the car almost goes into 'neutral' (like a manual GB with clutch in while driving), where u have ur foot on the throttle, but the revs just build up with no movement for like 2 secs even and then suddenly the gear engages and the continues on..This I am not sure yet is an actual issue or just the 'confused' gearbox.
 
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I have on occasion while in eco and comfor mode after driving very lightly for a bit, suddenly use half to full throttle, the car almost goes into 'neutral' (like a manual GB with clutch in while driving), where u have ur foot on the throttle, but the revs just build up with no movement for like 2 secs even and then suddenly the gear engages and the continues on..This I am not sure yet is an actual issue or just the 'confused' gearbox.

Ah! The Phantom False Neutrals or Box-full of Neutrals scenario ! :lmfao:

I've only three times experienced this in 3000 miles.

1st occasion - After using LC 4 times in a row, after 10 mins cool down, pulled into my road, shifted from D into R to reverse onto driveway - no gear. Lots of revs, but car would not go backwards. Selected N-D-N, waited 2 secs, selected R again, and car moved backwards. Never been able to replicate this again.

2nd occasion - Intending to turn right across oncoming traffic, used paddles to downshift from 5 to 2, still rolling, tried to accelerate to turn R into side road - no gear - but half a second later, it selected a gear, and off I went after a mild heart attack. I *think* I paddle downshifted at *exactly* the same time as the gearbox did, so it jumped 2 gears down (on the same shaft) thus the delay in engaging. Never been able to replicate this again (To reduce the likelihood of this happening again, I now tend to downshift by pulling the lever into S, it kinda readily downshifts for me).

3rd occasion - Motorway in 50mph roadworks zone, part throttle. Roadworks ended, Lane 3 was available. Floored the throttle, it jumped down 2 gears, lots of revs, but seemingly didn't go anywhere. It seemed like a whole 2 seconds before the car picked up and accelerated with ferocity (sounds like your scenario above). Reviewing the on-board camera footage later, watching the speed display, there was a audible "slurring" of the revs (like slipping the clutch) while it changed gears and then acceleration. But the timecode showed that this was all under 1 second, although I was prepared to swear on oath in court, that at the time, it felt like a long 2 seconds. The speed display also confirmed an increase in speed during this "slurring", although not as ferocious as 1 second later. Further research confirms that the DSG box will, in this scenario, try to give you the "smoothest" change, as opposed to the "fastest" change. Not been able to replicate this again.

If you downshift while accelerating - it will slip the clutches to give you the smoothest change, watch the rev counter as you do this.
If you downshift while off the throttle - it will "snap" and give you the quickest change, watch the rev counter as you do this.

I guess if I had been in a manual car in scenario 3, I would have anticipated the overtaking/acceleration opportunity earlier, changed down in anticipation, and then when the moment presented itself, I would have had instant acceleration. Doing the same with the DSG would have yielded the same results, but the box does lend itself to being lazy, and maybe encourage less anticipation, if you had to stir the gears manually yourself !
 
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Interesting veeeight! I've only had one 'brown pants' moment in my S3 S-tron in 4000 miles, and it was after I slowed unexpectedly from a high speed to avoid an idiot, then floored it again. I think I confused the box, so I had a moment of limbo before sudden and rapid accelaration. Other than that it's seemed fine. I must admit I stopped bothering with the paddles, as I now use 'S' mode on the gearbox instead. It ensures you get the best gear for the given speed, and I just pull it back again once I've completed the manoeuvre The added benefit is the added throttle response from the pedal. I now find myself reguarly slipping it into 'S' mode for simple junction's and lane changes, as it gives you that extra response and confidence and then so easy to stick it back in 'd' afterwards.

I've never really had the junction pullaway issue folk are mentioning. TBH with gearbox in S, and a reasonable amount of room, and you're never going to be in trouble. What I love is the quattro traction. In my manual scirocco, bogging down wasn't an issue, but traction was. I had far more occasions of 'oh sh!t' in that when the wheels scrabbled over gravelly road, or wet, or the traction control kicked in, than I've ever had gearbox issues in the S3...
 
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Does it make any difference if the throttle is floored to the normal endstop, or really floored over the click into the kickdown position?
 
Yes, depending which Drive Select Mode you are in, speed you are doing, gear you are in etc.

One instance where the kick down button/switch makes a difference, in "M" - 100% throttle will not kick down, but activating the kickdown button/switch will.
 
Sorry, I wasn't making myself clear. Does it make any change to the difference in the acceleration characteristics you've noted between flooring it in normal and in LC mode if the throttle is in normal fully open or clicked over into kickdown?
 
Although I haven't tested this on the road, I would say "No" - as VCDS shows full throttle pedal travel as 100% without the kickdown button/switch. The switch is just that - a switch for kickdown, rather than a "goes all the way to 11" feature ;)
 
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Not heard about the LC feature before? Is this limited to S3's or is it a feature on all Stronic boxes?
 
Although I haven't tested this on the road, I would say "No" - as VCDS shows full throttle pedal travel as 100% without the kickdown button/switch. The switch is just that - a switch for kickdown, rather than a "goes all the way to 11" feature ;)

I dont think this is true, its probably based on the DS mode. The reason I say this (u can try it), if in Eco or Comfort modes, do some light acceleration up to 3rd gear. Slowly feed the throttle till full (but before the kickdown switch), from about 2500rpms. when it gets to about 4500-5000rpms, push the throttle full (kick down switch, u are already past the point when the car has enough revs to actually kickdown). U will definately get an addition surge of power, like another turbo has kicked in....

This is a repeatable action, donr plenty of times, but an awesome sensation. Therefore full throttle up to the kickdown switch is not necessrily registered as 100% throttle by the car, its mode dependent.
 
I dont think this is true, its probably based on the DS mode. The reason I say this (u can try it), if in Eco or Comfort modes, do some light acceleration up to 3rd gear. Slowly feed the throttle till full (but before the kickdown switch), from about 2500rpms. when it gets to about 4500-5000rpms, push the throttle full (kick down switch, u are already past the point when the car has enough revs to actually kickdown). U will definately get an addition surge of power, like another turbo has kicked in....

This is a repeatable action, donr plenty of times, but an awesome sensation. Therefore full throttle up to the kickdown switch is not necessrily registered as 100% throttle by the car, its mode dependent.
I think there we are talking cross-purposes here, I fully agree with what you've said above, hence my first reply:
"Yes (there is a difference), depending which Drive Select Mode you are in, speed you are doing, gear you are in etc."

steverobertsbbc asked specifically if the kickdown switch made any difference, say in "S" mode in these 2 scenarios below:

1. 0 - 70mph - Press the throttle all the way down, but not click the kickdown switch
2. 0 - 70mph - Press the throttle all the way down, including pressing the kickdown switch

To which my reply was "No" difference in acceleration or upshift points, the kickdown switch doesn't make it go "all the way to 11" ;)
 
So while driving in "M" mode for the fastest change and acceleration are you best acting like your in a manual and take you foot off the accelerator pedal then?

Um.

Only when you are DownShifting - if you want the fastest changes (as opposed to the smoothest changes) - decelerate slightly, then downshift.

This is explained at 3'00" onwards in the video below:





If you want quickest upshifts - keep your foot planted on the accelerator in LC mode.
 
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