218Q vs 272Q: can't decide!!!

lsc05

Registered User
Hi, guys!
I am ready to place an order for the A4 B9 but I can't decide between these 2 engines. On the one hand, I read a lot and I think the S-tronic is better as gearbox, but for me 218 hp is a little bit lower than my needs; the perfect power for me would be 240-250 hp. On the other hand, the 272 I think would do a worsened fuel consumption and it's also have the tiptronic about which I read it's quite slow in changing gears.

So, my questions for the owners of these 2 engines would be:

1.How fast the 218 feels?

2.Is there a big difference in fuel consumption between these 2?

3.It's the same engine? If the answer is YES, are there any mechanical differences between these 2(different turbos, intercoolers etc.), or the extra power comes from the software?

4. How slow feels the tiptronic compared to the s-tronic?

L.E: 5. I have also read somewhere on this forum that the torque in the 218 version is limited at 400 NM to protect the S-tronic gearbox. Is that true? May the S-tronic be damaged if the engine is getting a higher amount of power and torque?

I am also opened at any advices/recommendations.

Thank you very much in advance for helping me!
Cheers!
 

QTNC

Registered User
Hi, guys!
I am ready to place an order for the A4 B9 but I can't decide between these 2 engines. On the one hand, I read a lot and I think the S-tronic is better as gearbox, but for me 218 hp is a little bit lower than my needs; the perfect power for me would be 240-250 hp. On the other hand, the 272 I think would do a worsened fuel consumption and it's also have the tiptronic about which I read it's quite slow in changing gears.

So, my questions for the owners of these 2 engines would be:

1.How fast the 218 feels?

2.Is there a big difference in fuel consumption between these 2?

3.It's the same engine? If the answer is YES, are there any mechanical differences between these 2(different turbos, intercoolers etc.), or the extra power comes from the software?

4. How slow feels the tiptronic compared to the s-tronic?

L.E: 5. I have also read somewhere on this forum that the torque in the 218 version is limited at 400 NM to protect the S-tronic gearbox. Is that true? May the S-tronic be damaged if the engine is getting a higher amount of power and torque?

I am also opened at any advices/recommendations.


Thank you very much in advance for helping me!
Cheers!

272 All day! The engine is delightful and not much difference in consumption.
 

hmy7k

Registered User
in sport mode the gearbox is the pretty quick.
 

Jimmeh-

Registered User
I'd go for the 272, but that's because I am biased.
I average about 38 MPG in mine and I do quite a lot short trips, too many short trips really.

The gearbox is more than adequate and I believe they fit the tip-tronic as it copes better with the torque delivery. As has previous been said, put the gearbox in sport and the changes are as sharp as you'll ever need them to be.
In comfort or economy, changes can be sluggish but that is by design.

Go for the 272 PS, you won't regret it.
 

rich_16

Registered User
I've got the 218, I had a 330d BMW before and really miss the extra power the BMW had. Get the 272.

Also the lag on the s tronic on my 218 is dreadful, hopefully the 272 tip tronic is better
 

lsc05

Registered User
Thank you guys for your advices, it's very helpful for me because I can't drive either of them.
@Jimmeh- that would be a good consumption for me also.
@rich_16 u are the first one I heard saying the S-tronic is laggy. I test-drove an A4 with a 2.0 Diesel 150hp with S-tronic and I was impressed by how fast were the changes, even when I floored it and changed 2 gears.
 

hmy7k

Registered User
@hmy7k thank for your opinion. How's your daily consumption?

I drive in economy most of the time but response is a bit sloppy if you are a junction so I just knock it into Sport.
I am getting high 30's but use mine mostly for longer journeys.
 

NickGun

Registered User
We have the 218Q avant, which we've found more than quick enough, having said that if we could have justified the extra leasing costs from our own company on the 272 we'd have gone for it (we had other cars for staff to lease at the same time) - our S-Tronic is a little sluggish in Economy, fine for regular driving in Comfort and as said above just knock into Sport at junctions or when pressing on and it flies.

MPG wise we average low 40's on short everyday runs and 51+mpg on long runs, not driving like Miss Daisy either.
 

dts439

Registered User
I think the difference in consumption is noticeable, but depends how you drive. if you don't need the absolute extra economy that the 218 delivers then go 272, the 272 I drove in Sport mode was very impressive. However on that basis why not go for either an S4 or the 252 TFSIq ?

I made an earlier comment that I thought the 218 is artificially limited to 400NM to save the gearbox as it seeemed a very low figure for the 3.0 TDI compared to my previous 3.0 TDI A4s (233ps/450Nm and 240ps/500Nm)
 

lsc05

Registered User
@NickGun what type of diesel do u use? Premium or standard? Your consumption is awesome for this engine.
@dts439 I also think the torque is quite low for a 3.0 V6 tdi. I also saw that on the A7, both the 218Q and 272Q have the S-tronic gearbox, and that's interesting.
I am not sure but I think is the same 3.0 tdi engine with different tunning levels. And if it's so, I dont want to give 4k euros extra just for a software difference, which I can make it after at much more low costs.
 

NickGun

Registered User
@NickGun what type of diesel do u use? Premium or standard? Your consumption is awesome for this engine.

@lsc05 Approx half regular and half good stuff usually, alternating fill-ups if possible but don't always remember, ours has covered just under 11k and I'm convinced that our summer European roadtrip last year (about 3.2k across 18days) has helped the engine along the way.

Can't be certain as to whether the engine in the 218Q is just a detuned 272Q, I'd guess not but someone more learned will hopefully be along soon to confirm one way or the other.
 

cuke2u

Registered User
There are tuning boxes and remaps for the 218 out that take the torque up to 476Nm, which, seeing as the ceiling for the stronic box is 400 according to here, means it is over the maximum tolerence. Although I'm not sure yet which gearbox is in the 218 version...
 

cuke2u

Registered User
Yeah I know that, but which version as there are variations. Its not the same model as fitted to mine and having a engine that outputs 400Nm mated to a box that can only handle that at maximum sounds a bit suspect to me as there is no room for error...
 

dts439

Registered User
@dts439 I also think the torque is quite low for a 3.0 V6 tdi. I also saw that on the A7, both the 218Q and 272Q have the S-tronic gearbox, and that's interesting.
I am not sure but I think is the same 3.0 tdi engine with different tunning levels. And if it's so, I dont want to give 4k euros extra just for a software difference, which I can make it after at much more low costs.

Thanks for the tip about the A7. Looking at the brochure shows that the 218PS has 500NM torque as well (1250-3750rpm). The 272PS has 580NM (like the A4) and the 7 speed S tronic as you said. The BiTDI 320PS has the ZF 8 speed and 650NM.

So interested to see how the engine/gearbox used in the A7 compare to the A4 for the various 3.0TDI versions. If its the same S Tronic then tuning options would seem possible.
 

S.line

Registered User
I have the 218 and did think about mapping. TBH I'm quite happy with the performance, and I get about 43-46mpg round the doors mostly in comfort. That increases to 55 on a run in efficiency mode. I switch driving modes to suit my mood (or what car is trying to get in my boot!) I honestly feel if I did remap I'd drive harder at times and with the changes in the points system this could ruin my life. Sounds boring I know but true. For a spirited drive I find country roads to push my abilities and it is fun! Mine isn't Quattro and that is one thing I might (might!) prefer next. Never had one before as never felt the need. Best wishes on your decision


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S.line

Registered User
Has anyone more info on the S tronic box limits? And has the a7 got the same engine and 7sp box as the a4 in same year? Also thanks for tip about a7.

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lsc05

Registered User
Thanks for the tip about the A7. Looking at the brochure shows that the 218PS has 500NM torque as well (1250-3750rpm). The 272PS has 580NM (like the A4) and the 7 speed S tronic as you said. The BiTDI 320PS has the ZF 8 speed and 650NM.

So interested to see how the engine/gearbox used in the A7 compare to the A4 for the various 3.0TDI versions. If its the same S Tronic then tuning options would seem possible.

That's were exactly my thoughts. Why the A7 with 218hp has 500 NM with the S-tronic gearbox, and the A4 with the same output has only 400NM. To me seems a limited value, it's just too little for 2017. My mind is...MARKETING! That's why I think de 218 is a detuned version of the 272 and the torque is limited in 218.

@S.line I also want to know that.
 

NickGun

Registered User
That's were exactly my thoughts. Why the A7 with 218hp has 500 NM with the S-tronic gearbox, and the A4 with the same output has only 400NM. To me seems a limited value, it's just too little for 2017. My mind is...MARKETING! That's why I think de 218 is a detuned version of the 272 and the torque is limited in 218.

My guess is they've limited the torque on the A4 218 to allow the 272 to sit sensibly above it in the range, one below the S4, if they ran it with 500NM then its way too close to the 272, although like you I've heard but not officially it was to save the S-Tronic gearbox but as others have said, if 400NM was the max torque figure for that gearbox then they wouldn't run it at 400, it'd have to be below for safety, I guess we need to find out that if the A7 218 is running the same S-Tronic as the A4 218, or is it different mechanically and (or) software wise.

Same would be helpful about the A4 218 >> 272, are the engines the same but detuned / tuned via software, or is there a combination of intercooler / turbo and mapping etc.

They're all questions for someone with much more knowledge of the new A4 / A7 than me though :neutral:
 

rich_16

Registered User
Thank you guys for your advices, it's very helpful for me because I can't drive either of them.
@Jimmeh- that would be a good consumption for me also.
@rich_16 u are the first one I heard saying the S-tronic is laggy. I test-drove an A4 with a 2.0 Diesel 150hp with S-tronic and I was impressed by how fast were the changes, even when I floored it and changed 2 gears.


A few people on here have mentioned the s tronic lag but I wonder if mine is worse? Other forum members said they pop the gearbox into sport mode at roundabouts which I've started doing, when I remember. I'm going to book it in.

My wife has a BMW 4 series, admittedly with a few more bhp (a 330d) but hers in eco mode is about as responsive as mine in dynamic mode and that can't be right.

If Audi can't improve it in going back to BMW as I don't find it all that safe and it robs the car of any enjoyment.
 

lsc05

Registered User
My guess is they've limited the torque on the A4 218 to allow the 272 to sit sensibly above it in the range, one below the S4, if they ran it with 500NM then its way too close to the 272, although like you I've heard but not officially it was to save the S-Tronic gearbox but as others have said, if 400NM was the max torque figure for that gearbox then they wouldn't run it at 400, it'd have to be below for safety, I guess we need to find out that if the A7 218 is running the same S-Tronic as the A4 218, or is it different mechanically and (or) software wise.

Same would be helpful about the A4 218 >> 272, are the engines the same but detuned / tuned via software, or is there a combination of intercooler / turbo and mapping etc.

They're all questions for someone with much more knowledge of the new A4 / A7 than me though :neutral:

@NickGun I couldn't said that better, except the fact that the 400 NM may be the safety limit for the gearbox, so that's why they limited at 400 NM, but I don't really think that. But I also think exactly the same with the class difference between these two.

A few people on here have mentioned the s tronic lag but I wonder if mine is worse? Other forum members said they pop the gearbox into sport mode at roundabouts which I've started doing, when I remember. I'm going to book it in.

My wife has a BMW 4 series, admittedly with a few more bhp (a 330d) but hers in eco mode is about as responsive as mine in dynamic mode and that can't be right.

If Audi can't improve it in going back to BMW as I don't find it all that safe and it robs the car of any enjoyment.

@rich_16 What are u saying is making me changing my mind! The other alternative is a brand new 330xd. I drove a 320xd and I was very impressed about the handling of this car, xdrive is amazing! But i like more the A4 because of the technology(VC, matrix etc.) and because of the comfort and how interior looks! I still have an unrefusable offer from BMW for a custom made 330xd with a lot of options. Every auto-jurnalist says that the 8 gear ZF from BMW is awesome, and I have the same opinion after driving it, and it's hard for me to decide: comfort & beauty & techonology vs. power & handling & sportiveness.
And you come here and tell me the S-tronic is laggy! :sign omg:

It's so hard now :(
 

DrEskimo

Registered User
When you say lag, I presume you mean the power delivery from a standstill?

IMO this is just a symptom of an automatic gearbox with a large turbocharged engine. Had the same issue in my old A5 2.0TFSI multitronic. Because you can't build the revs like you can in a manual, you have that delay of getting the car in the right rev range for the turbo.

Perhaps the ZF box and twin charged engine of the BMW makes it less noticeable?

I've moved to a supercharged S5 with S-Tronic and have no issues whatsoever. I'm sure the large increase in power and Quattro help too, but I imagine the main reason is the supercharger rather than turbocharger.
 

hmy7k

Registered User
The 272 has the 8 speed ZF automatic which is pretty much the same as the Bmw one.

I tried a 340i before mine and I found the drive pleasant enough but its very dated technology wise, manual handbrake and the interior is nothing special.
 

lsc05

Registered User
The 272 has the 8 speed ZF automatic which is pretty much the same as the Bmw one.

I tried a 340i before mine and I found the drive pleasant enough but its very dated technology wise, manual handbrake and the interior is nothing special.

@hmy7k the tip-tronic in the 272 is a torque converter gearbox, while the 8-speed ZF is a dual-clutch, or at least that's what BMW dealer from here told me.
 

lsc05

Registered User
I do a bit of serious searching and that's what I found:

It seems the model of S-tronic that comes in all the A4 B9 is the DL382-7F (for FWD) or DL382-7Q (for AWD) - found this by reading the first 2 pages from here: http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-b9-platform-discussion-212/b9-s-tronic-vs-mk7-dsg-2909260/page2/

Then I've done some research about this gearbox and found that is limited at 400NM! - http://vwatj.com/en/products

And this is a nice portofolio with animations: http://www.digitalmediatechnik.de/Portfolio_21_ENG.html

Until now I couldn't find what model of gearbox has the 272, I know it's only from ZF.

Searching continues
 

rich_16

Registered User
@NickGun I couldn't said that better, except the fact that the 400 NM may be the safety limit for the gearbox, so that's why they limited at 400 NM, but I don't really think that. But I also think exactly the same with the class difference between these two.



@rich_16 What are u saying is making me changing my mind! The other alternative is a brand new 330xd. I drove a 320xd and I was very impressed about the handling of this car, xdrive is amazing! But i like more the A4 because of the technology(VC, matrix etc.) and because of the comfort and how interior looks! I still have an unrefusable offer from BMW for a custom made 330xd with a lot of options. Every auto-jurnalist says that the 8 gear ZF from BMW is awesome, and I have the same opinion after driving it, and it's hard for me to decide: comfort & beauty & techonology vs. power & handling & sportiveness.
And you come here and tell me the S-tronic is laggy! :sign omg:

It's so hard now :(


Sorry to give you a headache.

I'm reading my latest WhatCar and they review the new Q5. It gets 5 stars but they criticise the slow response from the s tronic gearbox. I had a golf gti which was fine so not sure why Audi do this. I would suggest a thorough test drive of a 218 or 272 and really take note of the pick up of power on accelerating.

I do like my a4, it's very smooth riding (something most bmws arent on run flats) and is very refined and is beautifully finished but fun it is not, which is a shame.

Regarding the BMW 3 with x drive, do note the x drives have SE springs even in m sport guise so don't drive quite as well as a RWD it's a minor difference though. I nearly went for the 335d x drive but chose the Audi as it had a more refined drive and I already had a 330d so wanted a change. I do miss it though! If you do go for the BMW I would add adaptive suspension, it really improves how the car rides.
 

cuke2u

Registered User
I do a bit of serious searching and that's what I found:

It seems the model of S-tronic that comes in all the A4 B9 is the DL382-7F (for FWD) or DL382-7Q (for AWD) - found this by reading the first 2 pages from here: http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-b9-platform-discussion-212/b9-s-tronic-vs-mk7-dsg-2909260/page2/

Then I've done some research about this gearbox and found that is limited at 400NM! - http://vwatj.com/en/products

And this is a nice portofolio with animations: http://www.digitalmediatechnik.de/Portfolio_21_ENG.html

Until now I couldn't find what model of gearbox has the 272, I know it's only from ZF.

Searching continues
Nope, thats for the 2.0l tfsi engine as far as I understand...
 

Ricksta8

Registered User
Yes, that could be correct as the US market do not get the diesels - so the statement that ALL B9 A4's get the same gearbox would be correct there, but possibly not here in the UK.... and the designation of 382 in the DL382 would then fit within the torque limits of the TFSi engine - where as the 400nm of the 218 would already be exceeding that.

I hope I am correct and that there is another variant of the S tronic fitted to the 3.0 tdi - which would also then correspond to the A7 which has 450nm in its 218 s tronic variant.

More research me thinks....
 

lsc05

Registered User
In the A4 B9 the 3.0 tdi 218hp has 400 NM! That's why I think it has the DL382 S-tronic, because the torque is quite low for this engine, so probably the gearbox is the one which limited it.
 

cuke2u

Registered User
Yes I can see your reasoning but from the research on the issues my gearbox had the dl382 was only linked to the petrol engine exclusively.
What we need is for someone to get under the car and find the model plate on the gearbox..
 

dts439

Registered User
I hope I am correct and that there is another variant of the S tronic fitted to the 3.0 tdi - which would also then correspond to the A7 which has 450nm in its 218 s tronic variant.

The A7 3.0 TDi 218 quattro is quoted as having 500Nm. The non quattro A7 218 has 400Nm (same as the A4).

I guess unless someone has a rolling road report on an A4 218 we will not know the actual torque map to see how rigidly it sticks to 400Nm.
 

S.line

Registered User
Question. If I have a 218 with 400nm and I drive it hard and this rips the box up due to already being on its limit will this be covered under warranty?


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NickGun

Registered User
Question. If I have a 218 with 400nm and I drive it hard and this rips the box up due to already being on its limit will this be covered under warranty?
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As we have the 218 engine in ours I'd be interested in the answer to that also - which is what makes me believe that 400NM can't be the absolute limit for the S-Tronic box fitted, its just asking for trouble to be on the limit, don't forget that the B9 2.0TDI 190 is also rated at 400MN too, and while the 218 won't be the biggest seller in the range I'd wager that there will be many thousands more 2ltr 190's with the S-tronic box optioned driving around, really doesn't make sense to have no safety margin built in.
 

RonS3

DERV convert
I wouldn't be overly concerned, I'm not sure if anyone other than Audi and their suppliers know what the true limits of of their gearboxes are. They will have design criteria which provides adequate safety margins for reliability as they don't want too many warranty claims for gearboxes either.

I wonder if the answer is in the fact you can't buy the 272 in two wheel drive i.e. the torque is too much and has to be limited to prevent excessive wheel spin rather than to protect the gearbox.

I have a b9 avant with the 272 engine having come from a dsg equipped Passat, I don't thing there's a huge difference, I would say unnoticeable in sport mode. I think people remember the old mushy torque converter gearboxes from the past which clouds their views
 
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