2005 Nogaro S4 4.2 Newbi Owner (England)

[JimGreen]

Well, I thought it's about time I introduced myself after trawling the website for quite a while.

Coming from mainly BMW's (BMW E46 M3 & E39 M5), and looking for an affordable performance car I suddenly realized what a lot a car you get for your money with the S4.

I started my search, fully aware of all the issues around the timing chain tensioners etc etc, but taking into account how much car you get for your money and the fact that I'm used to pulling engines (Mainly BMW's) I made the decision that even with the possible engine issues, this was still a great choice and at the end of the day I can pull the engine myself and get a specialist to do the timing tensioners, adjusters and if need be replace the chains.

I found my new purchase advertised inevitably on ebay, autotrader & pistonheads, so obviously the guy really wanted to sell it.......LOL.

I was surprised at the condition when I arrived, a gleaming Nogaro Blue, with perfect bodywork and a decent shine.

Checking the service history revealed a full Audi service history from new until 2011, and one specialist from then onwards, religiously serviced annually with bill's totally nearly 9k from new ! ! ! !

Timing Chain Rattle - Non on cold start up.

Little top end flutter on Warm start up, happens about once in every six warm starts which I believe could be the inlet manifold Flap, but I will investigate this very soon.

So far I've replaced the two front tyres and brand matched them with the rears which were almost new. Given the bodywork a good wash, clay bar, polish & wax.

It goes into the body shop next Tuesday for a front bumper respray, few stone chips with a slight scuff and a very slight bit of bubbling paint on the rear of the roof above the passenger door, just by the rain gutter (Probably called something different, but I'm sure you'll know what I mean), so the body shop want to do the whole roof to ensure it comes out perfect, they were not willing to paint and blend, which is fair enough although more expensive.

Does anyone know how to remove that strip from the roof so I can make sure there is no corrosion hidden underneath ???????

 

[madmike01uk]

Let the body shop remove the gutter mate. I had mine done last year, fortunately it needed no paint on the roof, just the door side of the roof. Looks a great car, I might be going the E46 M3 route soon.

 

[Jimmy TDI]

Looks nice mate

 

[Andy_w]

Very nice, I love the colour.:thumbsup:

 

[JimGreen]

Let the body shop remove the gutter mate. I had mine done last year, fortunately it needed no paint on the roof, just the door side of the roof. Looks a great car, I might be going the E46 M3 route soon.[/QUOTE

E46 M3 : Great cars with similar performance to S4, but as usual as they get older it takes a while to find a nice one. Definitely go for a manual if you have the choice between two good ones. They're faster, and the manual allows you to make use of that great straight six engine. Good ones are taking more time to find now though, so choose carefully and read up on the rear diff mounting point issues.

Thanks for the advice on the roof strips, I'll let them decide how to remove them, but I do want them removed to ensure there's no corrosion hiding underneath them and willing to pay the extra should they need to replace them (But I haven't told them that........ LOL).

 

[S3 GAZ]

Lovely car mate and one my favourite colours.

How do you find the build quality moving from BMW to Audi.

I had an E46 320d before I moved to my b6 A4 and found the Audi much more solid especially the interior quality.

 

[JimGreen]

Lovely car mate and one my favourite colours.

How do you find the build quality moving from BMW to Audi.

I had an E46 320d before I moved to my b6 A4 and found the Audi much more solid especially the interior quality.

To be totally honest, there's very little difference. Both are much better build quality than your average mainstream cars (European, Japanese & American). I find the paint much better on the audis (Apart from my obvious roof guttering problem), BM paint always looks a little orange peel and the Audi's have a better finish, but other than that very little in it.

Even BMW's E39 M5 had an engine issue with the Vanos System Rattle from a cold start up, so they're equal there too.....LOL

At the end of the day, they're both way ahead of most manufacturers for quality of materials used and finish.

Nothing really between the two and it's to our advantage that they're in great competition with each other, as we end up with the results.

Just remember to keep the comparisons like for like....... Ie : M5 v RS6 and M3 v RS4, etc etc ............. sometimes it winds me up when the motoring press don't do this and compare un equal cars.

 

[Mike.M]

Very nice car and love the colour. I remember looking for Nogaro blue when I was looking for an S3 as it really stands out in the crowd.

Shame the original wheels are not on, but RS6 wheels are still a nice style for the A4

 

[rbailey88]

Beautifull machine!! Best colour too. How do you compare the s4 to e46 m3 in terms of power? My brother has an m3 now after a long debate over which to get, I'm an audi fan myself (a4 cab at present) and will be looking at an s4 as my next car.

 

[JimGreen]

Shame the original wheels are not on, but RS6 wheels are still a nice style for the A4

Wheels : I have had the wheels off to give them a clean, but did notice they are not quite the same as most S4's of the same year (2005) and resemble the RS6 wheel. But...... These are 8 x 18 43et genuine audi wheels, I wondered if these had been an option which the first owner had ordered when new.......????

M3 (E46) v S4 (B6 4.2) :

M3 = Engine: In-line 6-cyl, 3246cc, 24v - Max power: 338bhp @ 7900rpm - Max torque: 269lb ft @ 5000rpm - 0 - 60mph: 5.1sec - Top speed: 155mph (limited)


S4 = Engine: V8, 4163cc, 40v - Max power: 344bhp @ 7000rpm - Max torque: 302lb ft @ 3500rpm - 0 - 60mph: 5.4sec - Top speed: 155mph (limited)

As you can see, very similar power figures, the M3 obviously lighter but you really need to keep the M3 at the top of the rpm range which makes it feel thrashy to keep it on song, as peak torque is at 5k rpm. The S4 produces considerably more torque at just 3.5k rpm with a much wider power band which makes the engine feel more usable throughout the rev range.

On paper the M3 is marginally faster to 60mph, but I couldn't find any mid range acceleration figures to compare. Both of these figures were taken from "EVO Magazine" which always seems to be pretty accurate.

Having now driven both and always been a BMW Enthusiast, Audi has given me a whole new experience which I'm really enjoying. Similar build quality, more torquey engine, equal handling to an M3 (Which is very agile), the main thing is that the Audi appears to do things with less effort. But........ in the wet it would be a No Contest, the Audi has obvious advantages which would leave the BM in it's wake. So taking into account that it rains more than it's dry in England, there's one good reason to choose the Audi.

I'm not converted, but I'm very happy with the S4 and it's certainly a car you can show some enthusiasm in. My Opinion - Nothing in it, both great cars and it's down to what "you" prefer.

 

[Sandra]

Welcome to audi-sport.net Jim. Your car is stunning. Enjoy the forum. x

 

[JimGreen]

Welcome to audi-sport.net Jim. Your car is stunning. Enjoy the forum. x

Many Thanks, it will be as I gradually work through it. But she's a nice example to start with.

 

[JimGreen]

Well....... After two months of ownership, I get a smile on my face every time I go out (In the car.....LOL) just love that V8 Roar..... Goes with the registration plate.....

So far I've had the onset of corrosion sorted in the drivers side roof guttering by a specialist body shop. I just couldn't be bothered going to Audi and haggling over what percent I would have to contribute to what should be totally down to them as my car is well within the body corrosion warranty period and has a full service history. So I decided to go to a specialist body shop who went the whole hog in an attempt to ensure that the corrosion was removed and did everything to prevent it returning. Micro blasted the channel back to bare metal, all bare metal treated with some type of rust inhibitant, sealed, primed, topcoat etc etc and the strip that seals the roof guttering had the rubbers replaced and the undersides treated with waxoil prior to being refitted. Whole roof resprayed, front bumper and front wings resprayed. Over the moon with the quality of their work (Mission Bodyshop - Gosport - Hampshire) total perfectionist.....

Here's the finished results - Perfect colour match, perfect finish match.







So pleased with it, I've decided to spend a little more on here, So I'll keep updating this on a weekly basis, first mod due to be completed this coming weekend.

Pics to follow :

Plan is : Wheels, Suspension, Exhaust System and full timing chain tensioner overhaul using "full" JH Motorsport kit.

JHM Timing Chain Service Kit (JHM-OEM) for B6-B7 S4 - FULL PLUS - JH Motorsports Inc. - -- JHM.

All this will be done this month, yep I know it's a huge outlay, but I recently sold one of my toys and feel it's worth it.

 

[p1tse]

Nice

Good effort

Wow that timing chain thing is us$4k!

I have a s4 cab
Brilliant, nice finish, good materials, effortless in tiptronic
Tempted by m3 smg

 

[JimGreen]

Nice

Wow that timing chain thing is us$4k!

Yep, it's not cheap, but by taking the engine out myself and prepping it to the point where all the garage have to do is swap over all the old timing components for the new parts and ensuring it's all timed up correctly (Plus they have the specialist tools required for the set-up.... which I don't and they would cost me a couple of hundred pounds).

So I'll spend what I've saved on labour on upgrading to the full kit instead of taking a chance and not replacing all of the components. This way it gets everything and eliminates the chance of putting it all back together and still having a rattle.

.

 

[RyanJonS4]

Lovely motor, its the colour I was looking for when I bought mine but I ended up with a black one (the 1 colour I said I didn't want!)

Over 6 years on now and mine still puts a smile on my face every time I get in it.

What are your plans as regards wheels, suspension and exhaust?

Ryan

 

[dualmono21]

if theres nothing wrong with the car engine wise
have you thought about fitting an oil accumulator to ensure the chain is always tensioned correctly as opposed to replacing the chain itself

the cost of a good electric accumulator set up would be around 7-800 pounds fitted as opposed to the couple of thousand at least for the chain replacement

 

[Audi Dynamik]

Love the car, Love the Plate and Love the finish.
Wow looks amazing pal :thumbsup:

 

[JimGreen]

if theres nothing wrong with the car engine wise
have you thought about fitting an oil accumulator to ensure the chain is always tensioned correctly as opposed to replacing the chain itself

the cost of a good electric accumulator set up would be around 7-800 pounds fitted as opposed to the couple of thousand at least for the chain replacement

I may fit an electric accumulater once I've renewed everything but at 90k miles it was inevitable that it would need doing sooner or not too far in the future, so I'd rather play it safe, get it done now while I have the cash, than skip on it and have the potential of a catastrophic failure which could damage the engine in a big way.

 

[JimGreen]

Lovely motor, its the colour I was looking for when I bought mine but I ended up with a black one (the 1 colour I said I didn't want!)

Over 6 years on now and mine still puts a smile on my face every time I get in it.

What are your plans as regards wheels, suspension and exhaust?

Ryan

Wheels should be here on Friday - BBS CH 19 x 8.5 et35 and Falken Tyres, Suspension mods will be limited to H&R Springs (25/30mm drop) as they appear to be damping ok and look in good condition, & Milltek Cat Back System (Non Resonated).

Hopefully will get springs and wheels on this weekend, then starting to pull the engine & box out for the timing work and a new clutch while I'm at it, then I'll fit the exhaust at the same time.

Going to be a busy month, but just want to get it all done. Love my modern classics and this one is worth holding on too for quite a few years, hence my willingness to spend on it.


.

 

[RyanJonS4]

Wheels should be here on Friday - BBS CH 19 x 8.5 et35 and Falken Tyres, Suspension mods will be limited to H&R Springs (25/30mm drop) as they appear to be damping ok and look in good condition, & Milltek Cat Back System (Non Resonated).

Hopefully will get springs and wheels on this weekend, then starting to pull the engine & box out for the timing work and a new clutch while I'm at it, then I'll fit the exhaust at the same time.

Going to be a busy month, but just want to get it all done. Love my modern classics and this one is worth holding on too for quite a few years, hence my willingness to spend on it.

Sounds good to me....infact sounds just like mine really

 

[dualmono21]

I may fit an electric accumulater once I've renewed everything but at 90k miles it was inevitable that it would need doing sooner or not too far in the future, so I'd rather play it safe, get it done now while I have the cash, than skip on it and have the potential of a catastrophic failure which could damage the engine in a big way.

audi reccomend the chain and tensioning gear should be changed at 300,000
i have not seen a report of a single failure with any car which has had an electric accumulator fitted
and some of the u,s cars are coming up to this milestone (480,000 kilometres)

i applaud you for doing what you think , but as the old adage says "i think there's life in the old dog yet "

 

[JimGreen]

audi reccomend the chain and tensioning gear should be changed at 300,000
i have not seen a report of a single failure with any car which has had an electric accumulator fitted
and some of the u,s cars are coming up to this milestone (480,000 kilometres)

i applaud you for doing what you think , but as the old adage says "i think there's life in the old dog yet "

Audi say a lot of things................LOL, but I'm not sure I believe them all, call me old fashioned.

An electric accumulator will certainly be fitted shortly after I've replaced the timing components.

 

[Super Ron]

Looks fantastic, beautiful colour! And plans sound very exciting

 

[JimGreen]

Sounds good to me....infact sounds just like mine really

View attachment 35720

That's exactly the stance I'm aiming for......... Looks Great and the wheels really suit the car.

What Suspension are you using..... ????

 

[RyanJonS4]

They do really suit the car....I just wish they didn't rub like they do!

I'm on APX coilovers, there my first ever set so I don't have anything to compare them to but they ride better than the standard shocks and springs did.

I've only just put the wheels back on last week and they wont be staying on due to the rubbing. Last time they were on it was about 20mm higher and they wern't too bad then and would only catch under high compression i.e A/B roads over big humps! Other people running the same setup have said theirs didn't rub so maybe its my car?

I've had laser alignment done on my car so I know thats all running true, maybe different tyre sizes, a bit of arch rolling or a bit more camber would help!

 

[JimGreen]

I've ordered mine with 235/35/19 Falkens....... What size tyres are you running............

Isn't it worth winding the ride height up a little to give it a little more clearance, 15mm Ish, and keep the wheels on.

Are you running spacers or not........... I'm guessing your wheels are ET35..........

So many questions...... LOL

Mine should have arrived today, but received a phone call saying they had to wait for arrival of tyres and now they'll be here on Tuesday....... Arghh, the engine will be out by then.



Regards Jim

 

[RyanJonS4]

Running 235/35/19 continentals, et35 8.5 x 19 and no spacers. I no what you mean about raising it, its an option but I've had the adjusters taken out of the rears so its not as easy as it sounds! lol! And also they would still rub when giving it some on the back roads and its not a sound I like!

My Avus's need a refurb so gona get them done and put them back on I think. I was running them with 12mm on the rear and 8mm on the front with a very slight stretch on the tyres and at the ride height I'm running they looked spot on!

My Mrs has just bought an EOS so maybe gona throw the CH's on there

Good luck with the engine and everything. Who you gona get to do the work?

 

[JimGreen]

Moorland Garage at Gosport, they have a long time Audi enthusiast working there who's a perfectionist and already done a couple, knows what the issues are when doing the job.

He gave me confidence when he asked for the VIN number, knowing that there was a change made late 2004 that needs a later guide/tensioner. I'm not sure what is slightly different, but it's to do with one of the oil ways.

 

[RyanJonS4]

Sounds like you've found yourself a good place then! Does he recommend changing the job lot or could you get away with just guides and tensioners?

It bothers me that I'd be looking at about as much as the car is worth to get it sorted!

 

[JimGreen]

They advised me that If I wanted a guaranteed (No Rattles) job, then I should go for the full overhaul kit. The two mechanical inlet cam adjusters wear badly and that's what "Clanks" on start up, the rattle is the slack chain striking the guides until the slack is taken up the by electronic/hydraulic tensioners. The guides become brittle over time and can break causing even more potential problems.

The two electronic/hydraulic timing chain tensioners also become worn internally over time, the oil seals go hard allowing the oil pressure to be lost as oil seeps past the worn seals.





Also the two Oil Check Valves under the valley pan (Between the heads) should be changed as they are spring loaded and after a period of ten years (My cars an early 2005) it's common for the springs to loose tension.



I know what you mean about the costs, the full Kit including chain's is just over 2k, but if you remove the engine yourself then you make a huge saving on the labour charges, to remove and refit the engine is 14-16hrs. If they just get the engine, then it's about 3-4 hours to remove all of the timing components and replace them.

I've allowed myself two days to remove my engine (With a buddy helping) and 3/4 evenings to replace it.

I guess you've got to decide if it "really" needs doing, as from what I've read they can go for many more thousand miles after they first start rattling, or do you get rid of the car. If you decide to do the work or have it done for you, is the car worth it to you.

I normally keep "Interesting" cars quite a long time and I'm not particularly interested in new cars, If I like a car and it's in top condition to start with and will keep me entertained, then to me it's worth spending money on to make it the way you want. I'll probably keep this one for 3 - 4 years and its at the age where it won't depreciated much from now, where as if I had purchased a newer car (Early RS4/BMW M5) then they would certainly depreciate more over the next 3-4yrs, than what I'm going to spend doing mine.

So yes, I think it's worth having it done on a good car.

 

[JimGreen]

Quick Update - Just before we were about to start pulling the engine, these arrived. I just had to fit one side and take a few pics. H&R springs not fitted at this stage.







Sorry for crappy pictures (IPhone).

 

[JimGreen]

They do really suit the car....I just wish they didn't rub like they do!

I'm on APX coilovers, there my first ever set so I don't have anything to compare them to but they ride better than the standard shocks and springs did.

I've only just put the wheels back on last week and they wont be staying on due to the rubbing. Last time they were on it was about 20mm higher and they wern't too bad then and would only catch under high compression i.e A/B roads over big humps! Other people running the same setup have said theirs didn't rub so maybe its my car?

I've had laser alignment done on my car so I know thats all running true, maybe different tyre sizes, a bit of arch rolling or a bit more camber would help!

Is it rubbing on the fronts or rears ?????

 

[JimGreen]

A few teasers......

 

[JimGreen]

Well.............. Having got the engine out I decided to spend a little time tidying up the engine bay and replacing a few items while I have an empty engine bay.

A few delays due to waiting for a few parts in addition to all of the timing chain/tensioners/guides/inlet cam adjusters etc etc etc which I have had for some time.

I decided that while the engine was out, I may as well replace the two non return valves and the oil jet after removing the inlet manifold, so had a week lost waiting for these.... but at least it will set my mind at rest knowing that I'm replacing every possible component to give me another 100k miles with minimal issues.





I purchased my H&R Springs from Goose, and these are on the car now but until the engine & box is back in place it's not worth putting up pics.

The 19" BBS CH wheels were the first thing to arrive and look great, but they'll look even better once the car is no longer on the lift, and she's sat on the ground...... LOL.

So I'm holding fire on those pics too......



Milltek Exhaust System (Non Resonated) is presently sat in my garage waiting to be taken to my buddy at Moorland Motors who are refitting the engine, but he's asked if I can hang onto it until mid week, as space is limited in his workshop, but at least I now have it in my dirty little hands, as this too delayed a few things as Milltek must be doing really well at the moment as they are now only building to order and it took them four weeks to produce. Very pleased with the quality of their work though and worth the wait.









The pictures below were taken about two weeks ago when I first started removing the engine........ More To Follow.







Ending up replacing a lot of seeping gaskets (Sump, Rocker Covers, Crankshaft end seals, front pulley oil seals....... the list goes on) and of course the engine has now been thoroughly cleaned.

Hoping to have it back on the road for the end of this coming week, so expect lots of pics....LOL.

 

[Welshquattro]

Looking good. Hope you have more luck with ur milltek than I did on my 1.8t. Are they oval tailpipes?

 

[JimGreen]

I hope so.

They're round, but slash cut, so they match the curvature of the rear valance.

 

[Welshquattro]

Same as mine then. Just check the back box mountings as they where badly done on mine.

I rang them and they told me it was the Audi mounting parts that where wrong,even the new ones I got!!!! Well I'm taking it to a exhaust place so they can fix them for me. Milltek are the most unhelpful company,it's like you've bought it so we are not interested anymore. The complete back end of the system moves side to side until I put the zip ties on. It does sound good though and my mpg has gone down as I keep dropping it down a gear and hitting the gas to hear it.lol

 

[JimGreen]

I'll keep an eye on that and if need be, then I will do the same.

Cheers

Jim

 

[JimGreen]

Well, after a few delays and me being a bit anal about cleaning parts as they were taken out and in some cases cleaning parts before they were taken off to prevent and debris falling into the engine, things are finally on the move. A few additional parts that I hadn't budgeted for have had to be bought as it would be stupid not to fit them now while the engine and gearbox are out. Those parts include a new flywheel, Clutch and Pressure Plate and taking the sump off to cure a few seeping areas, along with a few unexpected gaskets, but when your doing this much work it's not worth scrimping. I'm just dreading adding up what it'll have cost at the end, but this is a long term project and this is just making sure the mechanics of the car are perfect before I go even further.

I won't bore you with what a pain it is to remove the engine and box and how many components you have to move out of the way first, but just to say it's not for the faint hearted, but if your mechanically minded and have access to some decent facilities it is possible.

So now I'll just add the pics of a sorry looking car, that will be perfect once I've finished.

Here goes :













And lo and behold, I found the reason for committing to doing a total rebuild of the timing gear, every item is being replaced as recommended by JHMotorsports, and just as they state, most of the engines that come in for a timing gear rebuild, they almost always find one particular tensioner has failed........... Which is exactly what I found, luckily mine had only cracked and not broken up and fallen into any other moving components. Guess I was lucky, or my timing was perfect in doing this mammoth job. As you will see, the timing chain tensioner (The guide actually) had cracked in two, but was still in place.







Having checked all of the remaining guides/tensioners, everything else appeared in good condition, but showing signs of wear, this is an 81k miles car, so not a sky high mileage one. Just goes to show.















Well, I hope that's enough pics to keep you guys happy for a couple of days, the next pics will be when everything has been replaced.

And for anyone who's going to ask how much this is costing ........... DON'T.