2.5TDi V6 quattro Sport 180hp Turbochip

Ref: - Water/Methanol Injection, a little bit of history first I bought my car around 18-months ago one owner FVWSH 89,000 etc etc, been wanting a 2.5tdi V6 for a while. A close friend of mine who who lives within "spittin" distance of me and who has vagcom and who is also an agent for the german DTE tuning boxes, which was the first thing I had installed along with the K&N filter, which transformed the car and as been 100% trouble free.
Well we were looking into disconnecting the egr valve which he could do with the vagcom and whilst the vagcom was connected to the car it ran much better it was smoother and felt a little quicker, however VW in it's infinite wisdom set it to default back so it couldn't be disconnected permanently, unlike earlier models, I even tried just disconnecting it which was fine for about an hour until the engine management light came on.
So I was a little concerned about the amount of crap that was being introduced through the motor with this valve in operation and was reading about the benefits of water/methanol injection and how it steam cleans the internals of the motor manifolds, turbo, egr, ports etc. I have seen pics of motors stripped down that have used this system and they are spotless inside where you would normally find them all gummed up with carbon etc so I booked it in to have a Devilsown system fitted which meant a drive up to near Brighton I think it was early on a Sunday morning. I spent the day with the guy who is a brother of the guy who runs the company and who is also a Seat technician, who basically gets to fit the systems in his spare time me being an ex spanner man helped him out for which he was very grateful.
It was a different beast driving home when the boost comes in it injects the mix fed from a tank in the back through a very high pressure pump and through two-1mm injectors, one low down the front of the car close to the right-hand side intercooler and the second in the inlet manifold just after the throttle body, the controller is in the glove box, which is adjustable but I haven't played with it, left it the way the guy set it up, apart from cleaning the little filters every now and then, one on each injector, and keeping the tank topped up that's about all there is to it, again it has been more or less trouble free, stopped working once due to clogged injector filters, needless to say when driven in anger and using a lot of boost it can empty the 2.5 litre bottle in less than 50 miles.
 
OK chaps we are at the end of the story now. I have decided to sell the car. Theres a couple of jobs to get done which will take a few weeks to sort but then she'll be up for sale.

I will be arranging to get the injectors done in early December when i am on holiday. I'll try to get this done at Celtic so if as i suspect there's remapping to be done they can do that as well.

I now need to get a pipe on the aircon fixed, i think it was damaged back in January and has been leaking for the last couple of months. I got Kevin the aircon doctor to the house this afternoon The Air-Con Doctor and he spent 90mins furtling under the car with a nitrogen feed and found the leaky pipe between the compressor and the dryer. Ex navy fully trained, nice guy. I'll be on to the garage on Monday so hopefully that willl be sorted in a couple of weeks, i suspect the front of the car will have to come off again.

The car had 4 new tyres last month and a 40,000mile service. She turned 240k miles on the way home on Friday. You know everything else thats been done if you've read the threads. If you are interested and want more info then let me know. If you're happy to take the car as she is let me know quickly. Insurers valued her at £3500 in January, valued at £3k last month by an independent garage i was talking to. So lets say £3k ono.

Why the sudden decison? well its been coming on for a couple of months, i think the water pump, fuel pump and now the aircon was probably the last few straws. If i was doing the tiny mileage of a few years ago when i was flying to Dublin each week, i could manage my way around problems or leave the car at Celtic all week for remap at their convenience. Now i'm commuting to London every week any problem becomes very involved to resolve, the logistics are a pain in the bum. I was getting very encouraged by the results of the turbo cleaning, and i think the 2 stroke is going to improve things too, but not quite enough.

I've spent a couple of months getting the finance together and was actively looking for a replacement. I am somewhat embarassed to say that yesterday i went to the dark side and am now the owner of a 57 plate carbon black BMW 535d M Sport Auto with a long list of extras that i found before the equivalent A5 or A6 3litre diesel appeared. Its got the power but not quite the torque, but i hesitate to say that a remap will close that gap. I have no plans to start tuning that one, its far too complicated, the remap will do.
 
I'm sorry to see this 'project' end as I guess you are - but appreciate the practicalities and it wasn't supposed to be so long a project - I think you've stuck with it a long time with lots of hassle on the way, anf the whole thread has been really interesting - many thanks for this. I have had hassle with modded cars like this but not for 25 years and all prior to turbos being used - only webers and cracked heads! It will still be one of the most sorted 2.5 TDi's in this country and lets hope whoever buys it will maybe continue the good work and maybe keeps us informed!
PS Good luck with the BM.
 
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Yeah it occurred to me on saturday as i was learning about the aircon that all the info i have acquired will now be pretty useless.

Anyway on a brighter note- BOY has that 2 stroke made a difference. I put some in halfway through the last tank and there wasn't much difference. However filled up this morning and put in approx 1:200 mix and have had the best performance out of the car since January. Smoke massively reduced, pulls hard . Not quite pedal to the floor but close to it. Get a puff of black smoke and then a blue grey haze when booting it. Fuel economy hard to tell, better i would say but it took some iron self control not to use the newly returned performance and try and drive like i was ie gently accelerating and short shifting to avoid smoke, and iron was in short supply this morning. Maybe all the little fixes are adding up but this morning was a big step.

Its hesitating to start again, i think i still have an air leak around the non return valve on the fuel filter, and its weeping diesel onto the top of the filter.
 
End of an era this :(

I like the 535d's, ultimate Autobahn stormer, it says a lot for the 2.5TDi if the torque beats the 535!

Just be ready for when it snows!

Interesting on the 2-stroke too.
 
Er, MY 2.5TDI has more torque (466ftlb) than the 535d (286hp, 428ftlb). On a good day. Unfortunately I have noticed Celtic take it to 345hp and 511ftlb....
Yeah, snow, well i figure i'll just finally have to join the rest of the nation and have a day off this year.
 
....and chains and socks. I am already blanching at the cost of 19" tyres, my 17s are bad enough, what snow tyres would be i don't know, will have to go and look what the germans use.
 
...yep!

why i went back to original 16's for winter tyres, Dunlop SP Winter Sport 4d's were £90 a corner as opposed to £165 for 18's and looking at 19's well £250+ if you can find stock!
 
I thought the 2-stroke would make a difference, using it my van also as well as the Passat, smitten now so much so I've just purchased a 25-lire drum of the stuff, much cheaper than buying it by the individual litre.!!!
My mate the guy with vagcom spent 4-hours on the internet researching the practice of adding the stuff to diesel and said he couldn't find anything said against. Apart of course from the usual over cautious nerds saying don't do it you will blow your motor and manufactures didn't design it to be used in their engines etc etc.
And fttwelve good luck with new venture with BMW, at least it's still German.!!!
 
Not as lively on the way home and smoking again. When starting, as i said increasingly reluctantly, getting cloud of white/pale bluish smoke. Refilled on the way home, and cut the 2 stroke ratio back a bit to maybe 1;250 - 1:300. Went a bit better after, but car now in for the aircon pipe to be done so no news now til next week. Been driving the 535 around over the weekend, its a bit quick....
 
Martin, i still think you should return the car back to standard as you can sell the car slightly cheaper and get some money from the mods: turbo,ECU and nozzles !
I could supply and fit a genuine GT2052 turbo low mileage with some cash your way towards the turbo you have. Also i would be interested in the ECU and injectors...I can supply and fit/code standard ECU and injectors...with money your way of course !
 
Ok thats a possibility. I'm on holiday next week but will be back in London with the A6 the following week (courier job - a workmate bought a Landrover rollbar off ebay from someone in Falmouth would i bring it it up to London for him?) so i'll give you a call then.

Wife reports starting problem again. Said it looks so nice sat uin the drive, why sell it, then she went out to move it and it wouldn't start at which point she said why have you still got it....
 
Did they fit a genuine fuel filter ? If they did then the plastic valve on top of the filter is faulty or they nicked the seal of it. I would only fit a genuine/hengst filter as i had bad issues with cheaper filters and allways use a new thermostatic valve on it ! Best 30 quid you'll ever spend as it saves grief and keeps the strain on the starter to a minimum ! As i said, genuinely interested in them bits off you so if you think of a decent figure we may do a deal. You're asking strong money for a high mileage a6 quattro, last one i sold was a w reg with a fully rebuilt engine for £2250. Granted it did not have the spec your's have but folks are afraid of high mileage motors- mine was on 180k and i sold it to a mate as i only got stupid offers around the 1k mark ! If you get some cash back from the mods whilst you return it back to standard and sell it for about the 2.5k mark then it makkes more sense. I wish i could buy the car off you but i have just rebuilt my allroad a few weeks ago and just bought a 54 reg a4 avant so cannot justify to the missus that i need a new project (i have another 3-4 cars as "works in progress" ! However, i could get the money toghether and buy it off you in a few weeks time-if you're not in a rush to sell ! I could pay you a deposit so you can hold it for me- i think i could stretch to about 2.5k if that's ok with you ! Cheers.
Chris.
 
yes i suspect the rubber seal too.
I'm more than happy to sell to you, yes i can accept £2.5k, no i'm not in a rush, hold on to your deposit - if anyone else shows an interest you'll be frst to know.
 
I'll see if i can put the money toghether a bit sooner, thing is it's hard to explain to the missus that i need 2.5k for another car especially as i have just spent over 1k on my allroad + just rebuilt this a4 (another 1.5k) without any funds comming in ! And with X-Mas round the corner it looks like i have to work overtime to get more cash before i ask for funds ! Deffinately interested...
 
Started OK over the holidays, plenty of white smoke, think i may have overdosed the 2 stroke. Anyway up to london with it this week with the landy roll bars which will clean the tubes out a bit.
 
Rolled up to London OK, very smooth after the BMW which has gone for a service feeling a bit coarse(maybe it was the 7k miles in 6 weeks that came as a bit of a shock to the system). Very happy sitting at 80- 90 -100, but not keen on 3k+ revs. However starting has become a bit of a pain. it will start after cranking for 20 seconds or so a couple of time, then we get large cloud of white smoke. Wondering if this is a crankcase breather problem.
 
Hello fjtwelve and al user hope they can send me an Audi A6 2.5 V6 have.my car Audi A6 TDI 150hp 12/2001 Alround with Tiptronic, and I have now installed nozzles Bosio Race 683, unfortunately I have the problem that the car is idling extremely restless and smokes heavily on so white-blue smoke is unburned smells like diesel.
Because I am in search for a solution I have come to her side where I read that they also ask that my haben.Jetzt Bosio there is with them and have been so with the idle? And who's like they have solved the problem ?
Thank them for writing their answers and hope they have a little time for me I'm sorry I do not speak English so well but I hope they can understand me!
Thank you
 
audi upgrades
Hi have a problem with the sending of PN, whom I have always chosen a recipient of the title and then I go on my Tread send the message, but unfortunately then opens a window and the message is not watching, I also uploaded a URL to see what ist.Ok there to see me when I ask you now to all especially to fjtwelve whom you have a minute for me please send a message to Adamss24 the best he should sign up with me at my email address on the Capture moffo@gmx.de that would be great!
Thanks a million ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting
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Hi, thanks for your answer adamss24! Who do I understand correctly, the opening pressure of the Bosio nozzles can be increased to 250 bar for this to work properly?
 
I also fitted the Bosio R683 last week.
I am getting very rough running at idle, it can best be described as 'misfiring',
The nozzels were installed in the 'old style' injector bodies (AFN engine ?), index A. Opening pressure of the first stage is 180bar which is 40 bar lower than the stock AKE injectors. I read somewhere that installing them in the AKE injector bodies wouldn't work. However I am starting to think that the only difference would be that opening pressures would increase to 220 bar which would improve atomisation, maybe 250 would even be better.

I already upped my idle to 900 rpm over the adaptation channel with VAGCOM and decreased IQ to the minimum, the problem still remains. I suspect the idle stabilisation function just goes nuts in combination with the Bosio R683's.
as soon as it's revved to 1000+ rpm the misfiring disappears and the thing goes like hell, the clutch can't hold the massive torque and the flywheel vibrates violently between 1800 and 2300 rpm when given more as 20% throttle.

it also smokes VERY badly when anything over 20% throttle is applied, I can make headlights of a car behind me simply disappear that way.

what would you advise ? which turbo pressures are you running in combination with the Bosio R683' s and did you have the same idle problems before remap as I do ?
Anybody who has a good ECU map for this combo ?

Best regards

Stefan
 
Ok a wee recap on what i did with the nozzles

I started with the power plus nozzles but then we found there was a turbo problem, but the nozzles and the remapping did make a difference, but only got me to the car's original power i.e. when i started the car was in a poor state and not making normal power . After i got the hybrid turbo done it was better but we couldn't get enough fuel in, so i then got the fuel pump rebuilt because it was worn out. That improved things but not enough. Checked the whole fuel system to see if there was a problem, and bunged in a new fuel filter without much success. But it was only when we got the Race 683s in that we really got things moving, and thats when the idle shudder started. Initially it smoked like crazy but as the remapping progressed Celtic cut the fuelling back and got rid of the smoke.

When we first got the Race 683s in i used to get some vibration when accelerating which i thought was clutch slip, but we cut the fuelling to control smoke and obviously trimmed the power /torque back a bit, that was before the dyno run (466ftlb/632Nm) and the vibration went away.

Currently i think the turbo is still running standard boost, Celtic did play with increasing it but i think left it standard

Occasionally i can apply a tiny bit of throttle to lift idling speed a fraction and the shudder goes away. The shudder does not occur when the engine is cold, but once the temperature needles start to lift off their stops it starts to shudder.

So summarising, you cannot just fit Race 683s and expect the engine and ECU to sort itself out. You will not get a decent power and torque output and get rid of the smoke unless you remap. Even if you remap you will not get the potential performance out of the Race 683s unless you modify or upgrade your turbo to supply enough air for all that extra fuel. The idle shudder remains a problem in many cases. adamss24 said somewhere he thinks there is a european tuner who can fix this, and i think diffas posted that balancing the injectors and increasing pop pressure to about 240bar improved things.

There is some more discussion on this on tdiclub.com, see the last few pages of this thread Audi A6 Avant 2.5 V6 TDI Quattro - TDIClub Forums
 
idle shudder has to be caused by the idle stabilisation going crazy. When you observe injection timing and IQ with vagcom when it starts to shudder the values jump around, from 17° CA to 0° and between 0 and 5mg/stroke

When cold, just afer engine start, shudder does occur less, just as you stated.

When giving the car a tiny bit of throttle (3%) the shudder stops, even at 1000rpm. For me this means that as soon as idle stabilisation isn't active the engine runs smoothly.
This could bring us to a solution of bringing the idle speed as far down as possible over adaptation channel and then installing a resistance that fools the ECU in a 3% throttle input at idle, this could result in a 900 rpm stable idle ??!
Another option is making the ECU believe the engine is cold all the time by replacing
the sensor with a resistance equivalent to 10° water temp. I also want to increase opening pressure to 240-250 bar, just have to see what I would need for that.

I fear however the R683' are just too big, I am working on another set of nozzels which would give a 20% increase over stock, and do have 6 spray holes.

When you are only at stock boost pressures the hybrid turbo isn't doing you much good, however 266hp en 632Nm is almost impossible at the stock 1,3 bar boost I think.
Yoy really should do a test run with a VAGCOM attached logging boost, like this you can see what actually happens.

My clutch slips pretty easy, I think 450-500Nm is the limit for the stock item.
I have a custum single mass flywheel in construction coupled to a high performance clutch en disc, it will arrive beginning of february.

B.R

Stefan
 
AHHH! If this keeps up and adamss24 doesn't buy the car soon i'll be spending money on the car again and i've got the 535 sitting on the drive. About which by the way the service manager said to the wife this week " does your husband know the car has been chipped?" . Oh dear, here we go again.
 
:) I think you are experiencing the same troubles with the R683 nozzles as I do

The most important thing that I learned from the R683 experiment is that the stock VP44 can deliver MORE than enough fuel, judging from the massive black cloud it should be enough for 300+ hp in combination with enough air.

I just started her up from cold, idle speed just after tickover was 1200rpm (no shudder at all) dropping off to 950rpm within the first minute (still perfectly smooth), this convinces me that 950rpm smooth idle is possible with these nozzles.
I am going to do a bit of fiddling with that water temp sensor later today or tomorrow. First quick test will be unplugging it, if I recall correctly this will make the car think it's in Siberia and keep idle speed high all the time. Curious if shudder will still occur driving around like this.

Alpine has just modded a BMW 535 to 350hp and 700Nm, if they can get that from a 3.0L we should be able to get 280hp out of our 2.5 TDI (admitted, we won't get to EU5 emission levels, but do we really care as long as smoke is within reason ?:))
 
Which sensor are you going to unplug and where is sensor? I'll try it this afternoon on the way home if i can find it (have no tools or info with me)
 
when you take the engine cover you should see it, it is located in front of the oilfilter, it sits in a black metal waterpipe, you only need a small screwdriver or pocket knife to press the little platic locking clip on the connector and at the same time pull the connector off. I think it's a dual purpose sender, it means that also your water temp gauge will say the engine stays cold.
 
hummmm, after a midnight walk of about 6km I can say that by deconnecting the watertempsensor I got a crystalclear 950 rpm idle, less smoke and better power allround. The shameful thing is that stupid me forgot that the boardcomputer is about 120km off on calculating the remaining distance that can be driven ... hence the 6km walk ...

Definately worth a try !!! If it doesnt work you should try to increase IQ to minimum and idle speed to max with VAGCOM over the adaptation channels, mine are currently set like that. login for the ECU is 12233 or 26262, mine only worked with 26262

So, explaining to the misses why we must go and fetch my car in the morning will be the hard part ...
icon11.png


B.R

Stefan
 
Good day again need urgent help from you! Very important'm now close the nozzles Bosio Race 683 times still have to change, are adjusted for time at 180 bar, and she wanted to be set at 220-240 bar opening pressure.
Is that ok or do they still currently set to be higher? Whom I am worried that the adjusting them to 250 bar as adamss24 she says to inject a little diesel was in?
 
Adjust them to 250 bar, should be fine.
I also plan to increase the opening pressure with 250 bar in mind. Check the injection timing after you install them, injection will be a little retarded by increasing the opening pressure by that much.

I got the car home this afternoon, and what do you know, it is shuddering again, not as bad as before but yesterdayevening it was just perfect, I drove it for 50km letting it return to idle speed and also let it idle for longer periods, it ran beautiful !

After a bit of research I found some indications that the ECU will use the fuel temp as parameter after a while to determine how warm the engine is if the water temp sensor indicates values that can't correspond with fuel temp. To make matters worse, I fear that this sensor is located inside the VP44, I will have to find out which pin at the pump connector is the fuel temp signal and also set it at 'permanently cold' to verify this theory.
 
OK fairly epic fail here. No 6km walk though

Couldn't get the connector disconnected as i left work yesterday, so no news there but yours sounds good, but had an absolute flyer of a trip back, either fastest or second fastest i've done. Saw at gnats under 140mph on the clock at one point, and regularly 130, but the back of the car was covered in soot this morning.

Couldn't get the connector off today either. Took the car up to the jet wash late this afternoon and cleaned off all the soot. Then went out in the 535 to see if the service had sorted the jerky Sport mode gearchange (much better). So come home to put the A6 in the drive and it won't start. Huge clouds of white smoke, stuttering on what felt like 1 cylinder for a few seconds, absolute bag of spanners, would not run.
 
Good morning black wagon thanks for your answer! As far as I understand it correctly so I Müster the injection point to provide a bit earlier.? Not according to 2 degrees OT?

Thank you!!!
 
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