2.5 TDi Quattro Sport- your thoughts

[Jimmeh]

Hi all.

I've recentley had to let the S3 go, needless to say I am deeply saddened. (here for the advert - http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/927025.htm)

As you've probably just read, I'm having to replace it with a bit of a workhorse; I am soon to launch my new Detailing business venture.

I'm after the A4 avant.. I've seen a few 1.9 TDi's (130..) and several 2.5 TDi Q's.

I've come across this - http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/927025.htm - What do you think? Highly overpriced in my eyes.. I've had my sights set for a Dolphin Grey model.. still undecided.

I've read the 2.5 TDi will give ~35mpg?! Mixed driving.... Can't be as bad as the S3 anyway..

What will the tax cost on the above this/next year?

Now, it states "ecu remapped, very fast and smooth" - is this anything to be worried about? Is it normal for the 2.5 TDi to get remapped? What figures is it likely to have?!

Sorry to be so vague - just testing the water
Thanks

 

[quattrojames]

Both your links refer to your S3 ad

I have a 2.5TDi q and it is a cracking car, I have just spent the wrong end of £4k following timing belt problems and have heard of numerous similar horror stories as the engine and fuel injection pump both seem to be quite fragile. However when running right it is a cracking soundy torquey motor. I haven't much experience of remaps, but have heard of people with good reports of the tuning boxes giving an easy 210bhp for about £400.

I have just bought one for mine and will report back soon.

I averaged 33mpg with mine but I drive all country roads and at funny times of the day so do drive pretty hard. The tuning boxes should give another 4-5mpg too.

A few people have said to me a 1.9 is a much more solid engine, and they can be easily remapped to 170bhp very easily. But personally I love the torgue and snarl of the V6 too much I think if you drive one you would be pleasently surprised. 1.9q's are pretty rare too.

I can't remember the tax increase, I think it was up to £340 or so, but maybe that was cancelled?

 

[s-line stu]

Don't know much about the TDI's I'm afraid, but can point you in the direction of what the tax will be:

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/road-tax/?deriv=21923

If that's not quite the right model/spec just change it in the pull down menu's above.

Hope this helps!

 

[Chris79]

Hi, I bought a 2.5 TDI QS Avant a year ago, was very pleased generally.

MPG could easliy get less than 30 knocking about, managed 35 a handful of times and averaged 32. Had a new alternator and belts replaced. Mine needed new wishbones (100k miles) so not a cheap car to run.

When it got written off at Christmas I replaced it with a 3.0TDI A4 TQS Avant B7, very pleased - feels much newer in the way it drives. Easily does 35mpg.

Cheers Chris

 

[BahnStormer77]

all 2.5TDI Quattro's are B6's, so are pre-March 2006, so should be the standard £210pa (approx?) tax rate.

The manual is (I think) 213g/km, so would be under the uber-heavy tax band anyway.

I've got a manual (had it for a couple of months now) and it's a very all-round very reassuringly competent car, with enough "balls" that when you put your foor down there's some nice accellaration, the only disappointment after my rev-happy Golf is the narrowness of the power-band (1200-4200rpm), which isn't that narrow, but it feels it because when accelerating, it does whip though it pretty quickly

The disappointment with the Golf's lack of torque when I get back into that is a LOT more pronounced!

The only other option if I was to have to buy a replacement car now would be to go Chris79's route and buy a B7 3.0TDI (DSG?) or a B7 2.0TDI-170 Quattro, but for £4k, there's not a lot else out there in the same league... those B7's are mostly £8k+ and £12k for a good spec one that's close to the spec of mine.

All the 2.5TDI Quattro's are 180bhp stock, I believe they remap to around 210-230bhp, not that I've remapped mine yet. 210bhp with improve fuel economy and 230bhp for performance and slightly reduced economy.

I was also looking at the 1.9TDI Quattro's (which are all 130bhp for the B6's), but they're so rare it was going to be a long wait and the idea of a V6's smoothness (the sound and the torque) were too appealing.

On a 12.1gal (55litre) tank, I get around 400-500 miles on a tank (33-41mpg) with about 75% fast-ish (85mph) motorway driving (and down to around 300miles (25mpg) if it's mostly town / fun A-road driving)... I like to put my foot down, but when there's no chance to do that, I do tend to drive fairly economically.

One warning - I know of some people who's had issues with remapping the Tiptronic cars over 200bhp and then having clutch / gearbox probs due to the excessive torque.... no such probs with manuals, although I've been told to expect more clutch wear if you drive it hard post remap.

 

[Chris79]

I have an ST3 with about 4 maps for the 2.5 TDI 180, 1 of the maps is excellent - had to have it specifically custom written at Chipped UK after I didn't get on with the standard ones! For sale if anyone is interested.

Get yourself a drive in one of these cars, you'll be impressed!

Chris

 

[white.akita]

i once owned a fwd a6 2.5tdi 150bhp model that was remapped to 180bhp and was dissapointed with it as i previously owned a bmw 530d which was 184bhp standard and the bmw was ALOT more powerfull and i do mean ALOT !
i later remapped the 530d to 220bhp and then it was a real beast.
i would not advise anyone to buy a automatic audi wether tiptronic or multitronic as a huge number are unreliable and costs thousands to fix.

i now run a 2002 a4 1.9tdi remapped to 170bhp and i like it more than the 2.5tdi lump mapped to 180bhp, im getting around 48mpg and still have 170bhp to play with and the 1.9 is alot more reliable than the 2.5 imo.
if you must have a 2.5tdi make sure it has had the engine breather changed and make sure the rocker cover gaskets dont leak.
im happy with my 1.9tdi a4 but in a year or so my next car will be a bmw 330d or 530d their engines are much more powerfull and alot quiter, just a shame bmw dont do a diesel quattro saloon car !

im led to beleive that the audi 2.5tdi 180 bhp model is just a stressed 150bhp engine remapped by audi to 180bhp , a 180 bhp model remapped again is one very stressed engine !

 

[Jimmeh]

Thanks for the comments people!

D'oh, this was the link I meant to put - http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/900041.htm

I think I will go with the 1.9TDi - it's silly to throw money away for the sake of a bigger engine. Afterall, I need to be clever with funds/mpg/tax/insurance etc.

I spotted a few 1.9TDI's - definately worth chasing these. My S3 is being picked up within the hour!

Sad times.

(i'll keep you posted)

 

[Jimmeh]

1.9 TDi - http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/uv...max_records=200&id=200848324191676&distance=0

Thoughts?

 

[white.akita]

my brother in law bought a saloon version of the 2003 1.9tdi quattro about a year ago and he loves it and has had no problems so far but he was under the impression he would get 50mpg like the fwd cars but obviously the quattro only gets 40mpg which id be happy with.

 

[Macduff]

i once owned a fwd a6 2.5tdi 150bhp model that was remapped to 180bhp and was dissapointed with it as i previously owned a bmw 530d which was 184bhp standard and the bmw was ALOT more powerfull and i do mean ALOT !
i later remapped the 530d to 220bhp and then it was a real beast.
i would not advise anyone to buy a automatic audi wether tiptronic or multitronic as a huge number are unreliable and costs thousands to fix.

i now run a 2002 a4 1.9tdi remapped to 170bhp and i like it more than the 2.5tdi lump mapped to 180bhp, im getting around 48mpg and still have 170bhp to play with and the 1.9 is alot more reliable than the 2.5 imo.
if you must have a 2.5tdi make sure it has had the engine breather changed and make sure the rocker cover gaskets dont leak.
im happy with my 1.9tdi a4 but in a year or so my next car will be a bmw 330d or 530d their engines are much more powerfull and alot quiter, just a shame bmw dont do a diesel quattro saloon car !

im led to beleive that the audi 2.5tdi 180 bhp model is just a stressed 150bhp engine remapped by audi to 180bhp , a 180 bhp model remapped again is one very stressed engine !

Not very fair of you to compare a 3.0 BMW to a 2.5 Audi in the power stakes. Of course the BMW will win.

AFAIK there are no major issues with the Audi Tiptronic 'box as long as it's maintained. Multitronics are a different story and I'd steer clear too. At the end of the day though consider how many 2.5s are out there versus the number of problems reported.

The 180 2.5 is a lot more than a mapped 150. IIRC, it's a 30 valve engine while the 150 is 12 or 24. The turbos are also different. I'm sure there's a multitude of other difference.

There have been a few members having problems with the 2.5 in relation to the oil pump but again, you only tend to hear about problems.

BTW, BMW do do a 530d with 4 wheel drive - just not in the UK for some reason.

Dave

 

[white.akita]

like i said it was ALOT more powerfull not slightly as people would think as the manufacturers state almost identical power.
the tiptronic box shouldnt have to be maintained as audi told me themselves its a sealed for life unit ! which they have said many many times.
if it is not maintained as audi suggest then they develop problems i know ive had one.
as a member of many owners clubs over the years i am informed that the 2.5tdi 180bhp engines in the all road are almost identical to the 150bhp, they mainly have a different map and are also known to be stressed.
i forgot to say its true that we mainly hear of the problems on these forums but what percentage of audi owners actually use these forums ?
id guess less than 20% of audi owners actually use audi owners clubs
id also GUESS that there are hundreds more auto box problems that audi owners have without joining forums.

 

[aragorn]

The newer 3.0 TDI is a much better prospect than the older 2.5 when comparing it with other perforamance dervs...

2.5 is quite an old design, using an old bosch VE rotary pump, hence the BMW engine being a far more powerful design.

 

[Slinger]

1.9 TDi - http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/uv...max_records=200&id=200848324191676&distance=0

Thoughts?

Thats a very nice looking Avant, I love the colour. I know Im going to be biased but I dont think you can go wrong with the 130 1.9TDi's. They have more than enough power and the fuel economy is very good.

 

[white.akita]

i compared them because the a6 and 5 series are both executive cars,the ones i have had and compared were the same age with similar quoted power figures.
the 3.0 bmw engine should of had more torque due to displacement but the difference was light night and day in favour of the bmw.
i prefer the looks and drive of the audi's though.
i once had the 5 series up on a 4 poster ramp and had a look underneath, it was built like a tank, better than any other car ive had and ive had 40 in 5 years !

 

[JohnboyC]

Well, I have owned my 2003 2.5 Tdi Avant Quattro Sport for two years now - purchased from Audi York with 24k on it and its now got 50K on it - and have been very pleased with it.....its not as economical as a 1.9TDi....but would you expect that ???

The 2.5 is an expensive car to run in terms of

1) Cambelt & waterpump has to be changed after 5 years or 80K miles - thats around £470 (Many thanks to Stafford Audi for offering at such a good price - matched by Audi Preston having previously quoted me almost £700)

2) The 2.5 quattro gets through all 4 tyres (235/40ZR18) at the same rate - £600 a time for 4 quality (Goodyear/Pirelli) tyres. You can get 4 cheaper tyres <£100 (i.e Fulda) but they will not last nearly as long....15K miles from a set of tyres seems the norm these days....

3) Insurance can sometimes be a bit steep....I am 47, clean licence, car is garaged evey night - but still costs £350/annum - I have had quotes of over £600 (cough).

4) The 6 speed manual version I own produces 211 g/km of Co2 so it cost £210 to tax this month. It was going up to £300, but thankfully Brown/Darling got their tyre leavers out and it will now be £215 next year. Hopefully the idea of retrospective taxation has been dropped !

There is a lot of chat about engines being stressed - do you honestly believe Audi would sell a car (being a totally risk averse company) IF the engine was stressed.....now as for chipping, I would not buy a car that had been chipped, and if I wanted more power I would just change my car....now a 1.9TDi normally rated at 130HP, chipped up to 170HP - imho that must stress the engine and running gear - one has to ask if its that great why don't Audi provide a 1.9TDi producing 170HP ? And have the people who have chipped their cars informed their insurance companies ??????

I pay for the AA mechanical warranty - for peace of mind really ....so anything major is covered (up to £500/per claim) - never used with the Audi...used a LOT when I had my previous BMW's !!!

I have the car maintained at Audi Preston, which is expensive but they are receptive to reducing their prices to match local independants....so far so good !

Overall I am very pleased with my Audi, fantastic drive and supurb motorway cruiser the only main gripe is the cost of the cambelt change...

 

[white.akita]

There is a lot of chat about engines being stressed - do you honestly believe Audi would sell a car (being a totally risk averse company) IF the engine was stressed.....now as for chipping, I would not buy a car that had been chipped, and if I wanted more power I would just change my car....now a 1.9TDi normally rated at 130HP, chipped up to 170HP - imho that must stress the engine and running gear - one has to ask if its that great why don't Audi provide a 1.9TDi producing 170HP ? And have the people who have chipped their cars informed their insurance companies ??????


i beleive experianced members on audi forums over audi ! and many of them have said that some models of the 2.5tdi 180bhp engine are stressed.
ive never once heard of a 1.9tdi engine that has been remapped to be stressed and i have never heard of them being more unreliable than a standard engine due to a remap from a reputable company.
i have heard of bad remaps that were done by beginners with cheap hardware/software.
the company that remapped my car said they fix on average around 4 cars a week that have been remapped badly with cheap hardware/software that was probably bought on ebay !
if they were stressed then the thousands of people that have remapped their cars would be complaining of problems which they are not even after 100,000+ miles.
so if they were stressed we would regulary hear of problems with the engine/drivetrain which i think is probably rare, of course they will be more stressed but well within the cars tollerences hence very few problems.
i have regulary read about the stressed 2.5tdi 180bhp engine so i think there is some truth to it.
audi the totally risk averse company ! use the multitronic gearbox in thousands of cars that cant cope with the stresses of changing gear because the clutch packs can wear out in as little as 25,000 miles !

 

[BahnStormer77]

I thought about the 1.9TDi, but after a spin in a friend's 54 plate 130bhp TDI Quattro, I decided that I'd go with the V6.... especially since it's ahighish mileage one.

I thought that the <180bhp 2.5TDi Audi's were completely different engines (detuned PD engines, rather than the VP tech - PD's give more torque, so are more frugal, but narrower power band, so even when remapped can be a frustrating drive). Turbo and intercooler setup are also different, so it's a bit like comparing a Mk4 Golf GTI 1.8T vs an Audi 225 Quattro...

If you're going Quattro, then 2.5TDi, if you're going FWD, might as well go lighter and get the 1.9TDi and get even better economy.

BMW's were tempting... but careful which revision engine you look at: the 320d's come in a 136bhp and 150bhp flavour.... with 2001 beign the approx changeover date: the former was then rebadged the 318d. The "newer" 320d will remap to aroudn 175bhp quite easilly, BUT you're strongly advised to sort out the inlet manifold swirl-flaps as a lot of people have had to replace their entire engines on that, so you're advised to spend the £500-£600 and get a garage that knows how to take those out.

Similar issues with the 330d's that I was seriously considering: the 2926cc up to 2003 is 184bhp and the later 2996cc is 200-odd bhp... and they remap to 200 and 240bhp respectively...

Also probs wih the inlet manifolds on those, but less frequent and usually at far higher mileage.

The 330d was ahead in terms of driver dynamics, but the Audi's had it in terms of interior trim, practicality and a classier image.

I was actually swaying on the side of the BMW's until I saw one fish-tailing his way around in the snow and then 2 mins later a FWD Audi trundle along unfased.... I know, stupid to base it on the one spot of snow we've had in about 5yrs, but it sold me on the idea of the Audi's safety credentials and I consoled myself with a Quattro

 

[white.akita]

Similar issues with the 330d's that I was seriously considering: the 2926cc up to 2003 is 184bhp and the later 2996cc is 200-odd bhp... and they remap to 200 and 240bhp respectively...

i think the 3l bmw diesel engine come in 184bhp, 196bhp,212bhp and about 226bhp but i could be wrong.
the bmw engines are much better, the new 2L twin turbo diesel engine does 55mpg and has around 205bhp as standard ! it won engine of the year in 2008.

 

[quattrojames]

We are going well off topic here fella's! We aren't going to settle the BM vs Audi debate here, and as it's an Audi forum it wouldn't be very representative anyway would it Jimmeh asked for opinions on the 2.5TDi Q so lets stick to that!

That was a top post below by JohnboyC (who owns one after all)! And I agree with everything he says. I am 35 and have mine insured for £330 which Isn't too bad I don't think. (First Direct if you're wondering).

I think the cambelt and water pump issues would apply to a 1.9 anyway and the price wouldn't be much less as it is still a front off job. I think fuel concerns are the main issues, injectors, fuel pumps etc are all pretty expensive items (eg £140 per injector x 6). I have never heard that this is an over stressed engine, although I know they can potentially be quite fragile. They can be remapped to 210 easily, but anymore than that will require the injectors and fuel lines from a 3.0 TDi - as it is the fuel pump and injectors that are maxed out NOT the engine I believe.

I have never driven a 1.9 so cannot fully comment (but do own a 2.5) - but I wouldn't swap mine for one despite all the problems I have had lately, even a remapped one. If ultimately you are after economy and decent power then the 1.9 is fine, but if you are after a bit more, something a bit different then the 2.5 is well well worth a look.

@ Jimmeh, that blue 1.9TDi Q looks very nice, shame it's not got leather though, if that bothers you?

 

[BahnStormer77]

white.akita - sorry I was replying to Jimmeh's questions and was pointing out my considerations while looking for alternatives to a Tdi B6, so was only referencing E46 3-series since those were the only cars that fitted into the same "approx £6k" price bracket (not that he'd specified a buget).... the other spec engines you mentioned are E90/E92 320/330d spec, so mostly in the £10k+ range, so more viable B7 alternatives and the twin turbo 2 litre is a 204bhp, which I'm not sure if they've put in a 3 series yet although it is sublime when test-drove a BMW 123cd, but that's a compact coupé and I doubt you'd get one for much under £20k.... I binned that idea since it's far from practical and the company car scheme started to factor in car devaluations a bit more (gulp!!).

 

[white.akita]

yeah sounds like a fantastic engine but completely out of my price range because i wont get credit on a car, all the cars i have had have been paid for.
a friend of a friend has a 335d 3L twin turbo diesel which is about 276bhp standard but was mapped to 320bhp it is quite something !

 

[BahnStormer77]

1.9TDI vs 2.5TDI is surprisingly marginal insurance diffferences.

My A4 is around £325 and the 1.9TDI was going to be £305pa for an equivalent age / spec Quattro.

parked "on the street" (although it's normally on the drive)
London/Surrey (inside the M25)*
31yo male
7years NCB
clean license
6000miles pa
additional drivers: wife (on an L-plate!!) and my parents (adding the parents makes a BIG difference!!)

When I moved from SW18 to where I am now (6miles), my insurance went down approx 30%!

The BMW's were around the £375-£425 mark, a Porky Boxster 3.2S (2005) would have been £360, the non-S was £385 (go figure!), a Volvo S40 1.9D (2004) was going to be £320-ish and and even an old, lowspec Micra was going to be about £280-ish (I tried some silly spec cars to find a cheap one and then gave up!)....

 

[aragorn]

you cant fit the fuel injectors from a 3.0TDI to a 2.5.

The 3.0 is a common rail engine, the 2.5 has a rotary pump.

Upgraded injectors/nozzles are available for the 2.5 however.

 

[nick-A6]

i have a 150bhp 2.5 a6 , and they do cost alot to run.
I paid alot of money for a full n new alternator n oil leak fix as the oil leak had killed the alternator. only to find the garage hadnt replaced a pulley which is a common fault cause it fails on one side, thus the belt runs wonky and bobs ya uncle front has to come off again so there was another £400.

on mainly town driving i returned 33.3mpg on a full tank, on a long run the mpg is pretty good i have seen 55mpg on a full tank motorway run.

you all seem to be paying alot for insurance
i was 23 when i first insured mine and only paid just over £340

there are alot smoother to drive than the 1.9 though

 

[BahnStormer77]

different profile of people and different areas....

The first car that I 100% owned and insured myself was when I was 25 (E30 316i), I was living in SW18 London - a reasonable area, but still in London.

Cheapest quote: £1300, if I'd been at my parent's old house in Herts, that was about £700 and even less if further away from London. After a couple of years NCB it was down to £900... which was approximately what I sold it for in the end.

My Golf is a fairly heavilly modified convertible, with all the gubbins declared - most insurers want >£2000pa to insure me on it, even with a clean license and 7yrs NCB.... and that's on 3000 miles pa!

 

[Jimmeh]

How I love the internets! haha

Thanks for all the info guys.

QuattroJames, I'm off to see the 1.9TDi-Q in an hour or so. Fingers crossed, it's in good shape and I can pick it up for a good price. Leather would be nice, but, not essential.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Jimmeh]

Brought! Very pleased.. seems unusual to be driving such a big car at a mere 22years.. but still! The interior was minging, everything you touched was sticky - yuk! That was this afternoons job, tomorrow, weather dependant, I'll give it a wash and probably get the wheels off. I'll save the correction till next weekend.

This post is useless without photos, I know . Bear with me..

 

[quattrojames]

This post is useless without photos, I know . Bear with me..

Chop chop

Welcome to the B6 forum, congratulations on your purchase, look forward to seeing the pics!

 

[BahnStormer77]

Jimmeh - congrats on the purchase!!

So it's a 1.9 TDI 130bhp Quattro Sport?

IF the interior is REALLY bad: for new interiors.... just keep trawling eBay and you'll find a bargain every month or two...

It's anythign from about £400-£800 on decent dark leather, £300-£500 on half-leather and somewher einbetween for the ligther coloured leathers.

£100-£200 replace the (walnut?) trim with piano-black / carbon-fibre effect trim, I think it's about £250 for the proper Audi brushed Alu (or >£400 for the new parts from Audi!!). £40 sticker packs will last 6-12 months if you fancy a stop-gap solution - easy to find on eBay.

Pot some pics once you've got 'em!

 

[Jimmeh]

Thanks lostbok. The plastics/vinyl scrubbed up OK - the upholstery still needs a good shampooing though. Interesting RE the leather prices - I'll defo keep an eye out for this, ta.

It's a '53 Audi A4 AVant 1.9 TDi Quattro Sport (what does the red 'i' indicate? that it's the sport model?)

I'm gutted - I had yesterday planned to give it it's first thorough clean, then next weekend, crack open the machine polishing etc. However, I went over on my ankle on the Saturday night so I've been bed bound all day after spending four hours in A&E. I'm off work today too; it's better, but, still really really hurts. Bad times.

Pictures to follow (probably when I've given her the full detail !)

 

[BahnStormer77]

The red "I" for the 1.9TDI just indicates that it's the 130bhp version (or the 180bhp for the 2.5TDI).... but it's a quattro, so you're guaranteed to have to have the top tune engine in each range with the Quattro's.

The Sport spec will be indicated on the V5 (not sure if it's on the V5 sales slip)... or if you send the VIN number to an Audi dealership, they'll confirm the fatory fitted kit on it.

I think the 2.5 Quattro's only came in Sport spec, but not sure about the 1.9's... only realy difference is lower, firmer suspension and I think the sports seats were standard too.

 

[Hingy]

The 2.5 Quattro comes in SE spec as well. I just picked one up on Saturday. I have returned to A4 ownership after 2 years away!!

 

[WilkoS5]

I went from an S3 to the 1.9Tdi Quattro Avant and I'm still happy........the dog is happy too.

Get the pictures up :thumbsup:

 

[Marc1]

:sign_pics:

 

[Jimmeh]

In good time people, in good time....

I'll create a new thread late on Sunday. As by then, I'll have (hopefully...) removed all wheels and clayed/sealed them, flushed and dressed the arches, painting callipers silver and then given it a machine polish to remove the nasty swirls/holograms that can currently be seen!

Will go into further refinements later!

*watch this space for my "Jimmeh's new A4 Avant 1.9TDi QS"*