2.0TDI CR 184 Quattro APR Remap Results @ QS Tuning / Kim Collins

Dubjam

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Had an APR map done at QS Tuning, in Haywards Heath yesterday.

Run up shows the car was off the Audi quoted figures of 184bhp - for a 27k car, not like the VAG group to tell fibs right? However QT Tunings Dyno is brutally accurate, so probably more accurate than most.

So although the APR map shows off their quoted 220bhp, the lift from 172bhp to 213bhp is fairly substantial, of around 41bhp give or take on a given day, considering their map is known to be fairly conservative as opposed to some others, it's a fairly decent result.

What I found interesting after seeing @CanadaA3wales recent map, is that the power drop off is actually at a higher RPM around 4200rpm) than the standard map (at 3800rpm) rather than lower, so it has increased the already short diesels power band rather than reduce it. This is more than noticeable on the road, long long pull and always reserve power, which it lacked a little before.

Overall the car is much more drivable now, get up and go is fairly the same, but the midrange torque actually makes it very capable when you driving quickly in between 2-4th gear.

I paid a little more than was being advertised at the time to use QS Tuning because of their experience hoping this would count for something when they tweaked the APR map. I've never used them before, but their workshop was impressive, and spotless and they have some very highend machinery in there. There is a bit of an 'elitest' feel there though in my opinion.

Sadly, we had already had a bit of a tiff as the owner claimed we never had a phone call before lockdown agreeing on price matching Awesome GTI (at the time - £366 inc dyno runs). I'm not one who likes being called a liar. Anyhow, he convinced me to pay the additional to use them and would price match the Black Friday deal that was on, and they will 'make any adjustments on the map afterwards', 'road test' and 'look after me'. Other than a frosty reception in the morning, they didn't do any of those, and I wasn't in the mood for an argument, It was made metaphorically clear my cheapo job was a bit of an inconvenience :) . So it's essentially just a direct APR map, so there probably are some tweaks that could have been made to improve it further.

I had it matched to a Black Friday Awesome GTI Price of £385 , plus £40 dyno time (Awesome GTI include the dyno time). The Awesome/APR price is back up to nearly £500 now, so I probably did ok.

If anyone see's anything untoward in the graphs please mention it!

rr1.jpg

RR2 copy.jpg
 

CanadaA3wales

Canadian living in South Wales - Audi A3 8V 150BHP
Bet you can feel the difference, shame they did not honour the price on the call.
I notice mine just a little in second gear, but it comes into its own from 3rd - 6th.

When I am in 4th,,, Oh boy watch out, that thing takes off!!
 

Dubjam

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Bet you can feel the difference, shame they did not honour the price on the call.
I notice mine just a little in second gear, but it comes into its own from 3rd - 6th.

When I am in 4th,,, Oh boy watch out, that thing takes off!!

To be fair, lockdown shifted things a little and APR did put their prices up since the first call, it was more about the accusation that the phone call 'never happened' which is what miffed me the most! I was more annoyed about the lack of tweaking etc.

You should definitely see if your map can be adjusted, these are essentially the same(ish) engines, so your power drop off should need to be early than the OEM one.
 

CanadaA3wales

Canadian living in South Wales - Audi A3 8V 150BHP
For £275.00 and the huge power gains I feel already I am not too bothered, I think he has done a great job for the price.
I suppose if I knew how to read the graphs at the time I would have said something, but after he spent 4 hours with my car, I am very happy.

I would like to get a Quattro as you could get huge HP gains, but obviously at a cost of having to do the injectors, intercooler, exhaust ect..

I think the only difference with your engine and mine is the injectors and possibly the turbo, but not sure.
 

Dubjam

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For £275.00 and the huge power gains I feel already I am not too bothered, I think he has done a great job for the price.
I suppose if I knew how to read the graphs at the time I would have said something, but after he spent 4 hours with my car, I am very happy.

I would like to get a Quattro as you could get huge HP gains, but obviously at a cost of having to do the injectors, intercooler, exhaust ect..

I think the only difference with your engine and mine is the injectors and possibly the turbo, but not sure.

Injectors yes, I think the turbo is the same, theres a slightly lower compression on the 184, which may account for an increase in boost, maybe some other things. But essentially, same engines overall.

Yeah if you're happy you're happy and it was a fair bit cheaper than mine which is always nice.
 

CanadaA3wales

Canadian living in South Wales - Audi A3 8V 150BHP
Yeah I was actually going to get Revo (475) as its 5 minutes from me, but changed my mind at the last minute, also after the reviews from Performance Engineering, and it turns out one of my work mates is very friendly with the owner, I knew I was in good hands.
 

Gazwould

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I don't mind peak power at reduced rpm on a diesel , they're low rpm torque monsters that don't like to be reved , it means it's getting the job done earlier .


The Celtic Tuning version is conservative .
 

Dubjam

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I don't mind peak power at reduced rpm on a diesel , they're low rpm torque monsters that don't like to be reved , it means it's getting the job done earlier .

The Celtic Tuning version is conservative .

I still can’t see how that makes sense, unless there was a major reduction of torque at higher bhp where it’s just revving without doing anything productive.

Doesn't it just mean that you are changing a gear early when the car next to is still in stride? Therefore reducing overall natural ability?

its minimal i know, I’m just genuinely interested. I may be entirely wrong and I’m thinking about this in entirely the wrong way.

I may ring APR today and see what there feelings are on it. I suppose like you say its about preference and probably forms some the difference in this maps.

Yea the Celtic one is conservative, my mistake, I got mixed up with another generic map service that was quoting 235+
 

Bigjase88

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There isn't a narrow power band in a diesel, it is all about gearing....

diesel 2-4k rpm is your power band so 2k rpm of decent going.
a yamaha R1 will give you probably 8-14k rpm of a power band, maybe 6k rpm of decent going, but it is all relative and down to gearing.

That 6k compared to 2k does NOT mean it has 3 times the "power band"
 

Bigjase88

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And as for @CanadaA3wales remap it is completely fine, he hasn't "narrowed" his power band, he has made gains at every single plot over the rev range, yes their may be a narrowing gap near the top end but he has still made gain's so i don't understand the narrowing of power band thinking.

Also you cannot compare a 150 vs 184 remap as the engines are different and thus could be what limits the 150 up the 'top end'

Both maps however look good, smooth and i would be happy with either.
 

Dubjam

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There isn't a narrow power band in a diesel, it is all about gearing....

diesel 2-4k rpm is your power band so 2k rpm of decent going.
a yamaha R1 will give you probably 8-14k rpm of a power band, maybe 6k rpm of decent going, but it is all relative and down to gearing.

That 6k compared to 2k does NOT mean it has 3 times the "power band"

So using your that theory, losing approx 400rpm of a 2k power band is ok? This is the bit my nuggin isn't managing to cope with at all!

And as for @CanadaA3wales remap it is completely fine, he hasn't "narrowed" his power band, he has made gains at every single plot over the rev range, yes their may be a narrowing gap near the top end but he has still made gain's so i don't understand the narrowing of power band thinking.

Also you cannot compare a 150 vs 184 remap as the engines are different and thus could be what limits the 150 up the 'top end'

Both maps however look good, smooth and i would be happy with either.

Yes good point regarding the different engines, the comparison is probably is a little flawed on that basis.

I might try to see if I can find some other graphs of both these engines if I get time, to make more comparisons.

My thinking of this, is if you cut off an engine before its reached its peak, you are stealing it of available use. As a crude analogy ,it's like giving a 100 metre sprinter only 40 metres then telling him to slow/stop (low inertia) then start again (gear change), yet he probably dosent hit his peak speed until 70metres, and between 40-70metres he is 'on song' (this is entirely hypothetical) and taking a gear change at 70metres at higher inertia would be more beneficial to overall performance, therefore it becomes restrictive to stop him earlier than is natural.

I am completely open to being massively wrong in this though :) and there may be a valid reason why the 150 engine is mapped like this, its probably more a question for someone who has tuned these cars day in day out and has much experience.

I see in a lull in mine in the middle, but that was present on the OEM map too, I imagine some specific tweaking could probably rectify that.
 

Dubjam

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A map of a 184 from Unicorn

GTDgraphs.jpg
 

Damo S

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Looks to me that the 150s produce their best torque figures at a lower rpm than the 184s, along with a bit of flattening which is then exploited by the remap, making it look like it's dropping off earlier when its actually just the peak was much higher and no longer a flat curve. Might be wrong.
 

Dubjam

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Looks to me that the 150s produce their best torque figures at a lower rpm than the 184s, along with a bit of flattening which is then exploited by the remap, making it look like it's dropping off earlier when its actually just the peak was much higher and no longer a flat curve. Might be wrong.

Yeah it does seem that way.

Comparing the Darkside map and Performance engineering map, the PE one does seem to drop off a earlier, but probably insignificant in the real world.

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Bigjase88

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So using your that theory, losing approx 400rpm of a 2k power band is ok? This is the bit my nuggin isn't managing to cope with at all!
The 150 makes more than it did stock at every part of the rev range so it hasn’t lost 400 rpm of any power band :racer:
 

Dubjam

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The 150 makes more than it did stock at every part of the rev range so it hasn’t lost 400 rpm of any power band :racer:

Thats a little reductionist, isn't it? 'because you have gained elsewhere, therefore what you have lost dosen't matter'. For me, I believe you can gain elsewhere and still maintain the full capacity therefore losing nothing, only enhancing. I think the Darkside map on the 150 represents my thoughts fairly well.
 
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Bigjase88

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Thats a little reductionist, isn't it? 'because you have gained elsewhere, therefore what you have lost dosen't matter'. For me, I believe you can gain elsewhere and still maintain the full capacity therefore losing nothing, only enhancing. I think the Darkside map on the 150 represents my thoughts fairly well.
It is hard to compare.

Different car’s in different states of health. Different rolling roads. Im aware @CanadaA3wales is a higher mileage engine, that could be a factor in itself.

tired turbo / clogged up from carbon / injectors slightly worn.

there really is a thousand different scenarios.
 

Dubjam

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It is hard to compare.

Different car’s in different states of health. Different rolling roads. Im aware @CanadaA3wales is a higher mileage engine, that could be a factor in itself.

tired turbo / clogged up from carbon / injectors slightly worn.

there really is a thousand different scenarios.

Yeah fair point, I hadn't considered engine mileage and its attributing factors. Some of the tolerances may have been lost, thus causing a lower compression ration.

This is one of the reasons I have always been confused over generic maps, as they will have been designed on one car, and therefore being transferred to another dosent sound right. Duncan @ Race Dynamix did explain this to me once, as to why generic maps are fine on the VAG engines, but that knowledge when in one ear and out the other at the time as I only cared about my Subaru and never ever thought I'd be in an oil burner!
 

NHN

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My experience of Kim @ qst isnt particularly positive, the frosty reception isnt an unheard of review not just from him, but other family members too, almost elitist tbh.

Appears the many years between mine & your experience hasn't changed much in how they are towards varied clients.

I went there with an issue in my S3, walked out with the same issue, but £500 lighter & only thing I could tell was a dogbone bush changed which did sweet fa.

Never went back & never will, weren't interested at all in discussing or helping me to find the issue.

Last I heard they were mtm dealers who are notoriously expensive, but good tuning.

You see, way I look at it is simple, you can be good at your work, appeal to a more maybe higher clientele so to speak, but without the neccessity for snobbiness & one company who also are mtm afaik & generally do work on higher end cars are mrc, not heard any reports of bad attitude, just good engineering, also Rick @ Unicorn, never heard anything bad about them either.

I personally understand how it feels to always be asked constant questions about this that & everything & get no work from your time spent advising people, but I also dont excuse how they treat a paying client, that's not right at all.
 

Dubjam

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My experience of Kim @ qst isnt particularly positive, the frosty reception isnt an unheard of review not just from him, but other family members too, almost elitist tbh.

Appears the many years between mine & your experience hasn't changed much in how they are towards varied clients.

I went there with an issue in my S3, walked out with the same issue, but £500 lighter & only thing I could tell was a dogbone bush changed which did sweet fa.

Never went back & never will, weren't interested at all in discussing or helping me to find the issue.

Last I heard they were mtm dealers who are notoriously expensive, but good tuning.

You see, way I look at it is simple, you can be good at your work, appeal to a more maybe higher clientele so to speak, but without the neccessity for snobbiness & one company who also are mtm afaik & generally do work on higher end cars are mrc, not heard any reports of bad attitude, just good engineering, also Rick @ Unicorn, never heard anything bad about them either.

I personally understand how it feels to always be asked constant questions about this that & everything & get no work from your time spent advising people, but I also dont excuse how they treat a paying client, that's not right at all.

After Googling a bit, I realised, that there were definitely others that shared my experience.

I've always worked on the basis that every customer, no matter how expensive their job is, is equally valued, as even if the rewards aren't financial. the good nature and good experience will always get passed along to other folk, thus its essentially 'free' advertising. Instead he got 'bad' press...but as many would say, any press is good press. Really, I glazed over my opinion somewhat above...if I said what I really wanted to say....:)

I would have preferred to go to see Rick, but quite a trip from London and wouldn't be something I was able to do. I would imagine Ricks tune would have been better than the APR one too.

It's doing its job fine thankfully, no issues, no fault codes etc, but it definitely makes for a noisier engine thats for sure.
 
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Kingfisher

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NHN I share your comments.
I have not had any actual work done by them but I was there with a number of B5 B6 mainly S or RS owners . I was making up numbers with B5 QTS.
There was 'an atmosphere' that I felt and disliked.
My suspicions were/possibly still are that they do what they want to, to what they want to work on and they are not into sharing any details.

I went to MRC, quite a few years back with a stock B6 1.8TQS , I wasn't sure if something was wrong as the power seemed flat / low.
What a difference!
A stock car
and I was greeted pleasantly, went through procedure etc spent a couple of hours in their waiting area and they couldn't have been more pleasant!

Oh, it was OK I had just got too used to it compared to the previous B5 QTS - chipped!)
 

NHN

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That's how it should be tbh, no need for arrogance & tbh that's exactly what it felt of.
 

Dubjam

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He actually moaned at me because he had to pay for electricity to run my car up on the rollers :gaehn:
 
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