2.0 TDI oil pump / balance shaft failure?

I've just found out MidlandVW do a remanufactured balancer shaft & longer hex drive themselves. I know they come highly recommended on this forum but has anyone had experience of their balancer shaft upgrade? would you recommend using them for this service?

Or would you recommend I just get the re-manufactured balance shaft from KMB I find someone to fit it? KMB say its £350 + vat for labour including oil & filter plus £225 for balancer shaft & keyway, so does £645 all in sound like a reasonable price for this job?
 
Pav said:
I have done mine couple weeks ago on a4 07 plate 170bhp. Had 117000 on the clock, very lucky. Bought the part from KMB (Graham is very knowledgeable guy). Guys from MB services in Sheffield fitted for me. Speak to Ricky or Chris, they are clever guys, not sure whether i can post contact numbers. Just sent me pm for contact or type it to google. I have done full service and timing belt at the same time. Next cambelt change will get that balance shaft out to see what is like. Feel free to ask.
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Thanks pav, Sheffield a bit far for me I'm near junction 1 m6 that's why I looked more locally. I'm comfortable with midlandvw after speaking with them. They have good reputation and are so much nearer me.

Thanks again and wow yes you were lucky!!!
 
Steve Hartwell said:
Thanks pav, Sheffield a bit far for me I'm near junction 1 m6 that's why I looked more locally. I'm comfortable with midlandvw after speaking with them. They have good reputation and are so much nearer me.

Thanks again and wow yes you were lucky!!!
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Get some pictures if you can, and mine is BRD engine code as well.
Good luck.
 
Update on my situation, I do indeed have the 77mm key ( it was removed today to have a look at the condition) looks like I'm one of the lucky ones as it had very minimal wear on it, still replaced it with a newer harder key but didn't bother with the balancer itself.

I suppose I will get some stick for not replacing the shaft but if it fails any time soon I will let you all know but seems as how the old one lasted 90k I'm hopeful.
 
Because people believe (with good reason) that only replacing the key will not be a perminant fix. More than likely, when the key wears badly or completely rounds off it damages the hex drive in the shaft. Or if you have a shaft assembly that's not aligned well then things will just keep wearing.

Mine had very minimal wear nothing like others I've seen pictures of, the shaft and pump had no signs at all. The new shaft was one of the harder types, I plan to have it checked in 10k to see how it looks, if it's wearing then I will replace shaft and key.

I think a lot of the issue is down to position/alignment of holes and I belive the amount of wear on mine (on long life services with previous owner :mad:) at 90k indicates that I have a good unit.

The guys doing mine said was that I had to bear in mind once the balancer shaft unit is stripped and rebuilt its never going to be quite as good as the factory environment where it was assembled originally, this is an objective opinion that I agree with but I imagine the majority will disagree. The garage that i used only do the complete job when it's obvious things are knackered or the customer insists. They have done repairs both ways for years and say as yet they've not heard from a customer that a shaft has failed after either repair.

On this note I did ask many businesses who re manufacture the shafts if they can give me of any examples of a car that has done say 100k since one of there shafts have been used, non of them had any examples to give me. They all said the same that they have never heard of one failing.

One thing which I thought of regarding replacing the shaft with a re manufactured (on exchange basis) is that I imagine as there purpose is to spin in opposite directions to balance and refine the lumpy Diesel engine they must be paired units with the same weight. With this in mind (my theory only, have no idea if it's right) I was wondering if not re manufacturing/re installing the existing shaft from your own car would be a good idea. Just my thoughts mind you...

The only other thing to bear in mind is how many hundreds of thousands of these engines are out there and how many have failed? I don't think anyone knows? I would love to see this forum do a pole to see how many owners of these engines have a unit that's failed compared to those that haven't failed.
 
One other point that I'm sure has been said before that all the garages I spoke too told me: if you do see the oil pressure light stop immediately and turn off your engine and get the thing towed to a garage and you will more than likely get away with it. This was one point that all garages seemed to agree on and they all said they have seen multiple balancer shaft failures that when the owner stopped car asap they only had to repair balance shaft unit nothing else. They said they had seen complete failures ( engine / turbo ) when people thought they could "gently nurse" the car to a garage or their home, Doh :flush:
 
Well im with you, I just had my car at a indy vag specialists last week as they were fitting my supplied dmf and clutch kit, I also asked there advice on oil pump........ ive owned my 170 BRD A4 for year and a half, have covered from 62k to 97k in that time and had the sump dropped and only just was there a very small bit of wear on the hex so had it replaced for sake of a £3 for the part lol.
 
Time will tell I suppose!

Like you say csm why? Expand?
 
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stuartyp said:
there is a company over here in northern ireland that say they can mod the old chain drivin one to a new geared one. They say it will fit straight in. I can remember the name they have been named in this thread. I'M going to be getting mine done with in the next week or so.
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Do you know the name of this company please
 
Can anyone help me out please. New to this. I bought a 2007 a4 tdv sline. It's the bre engine in it.

What does the tdv stand for and is the 07 bre engine safe from this oil pump problem.

Thanks
 
Not sure I've heard of a tdv before, I thibk you should be ok with a 2007. To be sure phone Audi dealer they may be able to tell you if you have updated dual balancer gear shaft. Mine is 06 and just missed out on getting updated gear driven balancer shaft oilump so I would imagine you may be ok.

Like I say call your local dealer and ask them, try asking the guys in parts rather than the service guys.
 
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Tdv i think stands for technical development vehicle, simply means its got a DPF as far as i know. Mines a January 2008 bre and still suffers from the soft hexdrive from what i read.
 
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SDHA4SLine said:
Not sure I've heard of a tdv before, I thibk you should be ok with a 2007. To be sure phone Audi dealer they may be able to tell you if you have updated dual balancer gear shaft. Mine is 06 and just missed out on getting updated gear driven balancer shaft oilump so I would imagine you may be ok.

Like I say call your local dealer and ask them, try asking the guys in parts rather than the service guys.
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Thanks for reply.

Yea definitely a tdv is what is in the tax book it's confused me to be honest. Don't mean to be a pain and ask this but what's the difference between the duel and the older one. Awk no way what model is your car bud. I definitely will ring tomorrow. Do I just ask is my a4 the duel balancer shaft oil pump ?. if they say yes then am I going to be ok with pump. I guess I'm in a better position if mines the upgraded pump ?.

Again thanks for help :)
 
Its the hex key that drives the pump that is the problem with the later geared oil pump, its all in this thread...make a cuppa and start at page 1 and all will become clear! Unfortunatley...mine is a 57plate a4 avant 2.0tdi bre.
 
joncro said:
Its the hex key that drives the pump that is the problem with the later geared oil pump, its all in this thread...make a cuppa and start at page 1 and all will become clear! Unfortunatley...mine is a 57plate a4 avant 2.0tdi bre.
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Thanks for all the responses people. I've read through these posts a few times but unfortunately I'm not clued on to what most of it means. From your reply I'm guessing that I've the upgraded oil pump which isn't chain driven but I still have a Hex key which is the shaft that wears. What an awful design by audi I must say. I think I should get the mechanic to look at it and put the longer shaft in do you think of I do this I should solve the problem. What year is a 57 plate I'm from Northern Ireland sorry we don't have numbers to distinguage year.
 
scroll up and look at pav's photos. If your hex key looks like that I strongly recommend you get remanufactured shaft and longer key.
 
SDHA4SLine said:
scroll up and look at pav's photos. If your hex key looks like that I strongly recommend you get remanufactured shaft and longer key.
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Seen the pics thanks. I havnt looked at mine yet. My 07a4 hasn't gave any signs or problem yet (touchwood) I defo think I'll be getting it inspected. Anyone know we're I can source the replacement parts in Belfast in northern ireland
 
joncro said:
Its the hex key that drives the pump that is the problem with the later geared oil pump, its all in this thread...make a cuppa and start at page 1 and all will become clear! Unfortunatley...mine is a 57plate a4 avant 2.0tdi bre.
Click to expand...


I used to think the primary problem was the key as it wasn't in far enough causing slack.

It's actually the balancer shaft , it's too soft , not a deep enough keyway and the real cause is that the keyway isn't hexagonal as it should be. Instead it's a bore with tiny machined grooves to accept the very tips of the edges of the hex key.

A remanufactured balancer shaft addresses this by having a deeper actual hexagonal keyway made of harder chrome vanadium .

So this is why it always has to be remanufactured balancer shaft and 100 mm hex key and not just the longer key alone.
 
Well I've done it I've changed out the balancer shaft on my car before i had any problems as a preventative measure and I'm so glad i did. The part that came out of the car wasn't so worn but the hex shaft was so loose in the banner shaft I could see it going at any point. I'll include some info so other people searching and deciding if to do there cars can read the info for future reference. All I will say is if you haven't changed the balancer shaft yet DONT bury your head in the sand it is VERY likely to fail and better to replace it before it does real damage to your car.

My car is a 2.0 ltr TDi registered in 2008 after doing research i found out that its a gear driven balancer shaft. The chain driven were only installed for a brief period up until 2006 so I'm lead to belive.I phoned my local Audi to confirm what type my car had installed from factory and they advised me after looking into the service history of my car that it did indeed have the gear driven Balancer shaft.

I then contacted Graham at KMB parts and spoke to him at length about my car and he also confirmed that my car had a gear driven balancer shaft. I ordered kit 9 from KMB at a cost of £225 plus £125 deposit which i got back once I returned my old balancer shaft as they offer an exchange service. Graham was really helpful and knowledgeable and I had the balancer shaft by the next day.

Pictures and video below of the new remanufactured balancer shaft
IMG 3267 IMG 3269 IMG 3271

video of the new balancer shaft (sorry for shaky camera but shows secure fit of new part)


old balancer shaft taken out of the car
IMG 3323 IMG 3327 IMG 3326 IMG 3331

Video of the old balancer shaft out the car you can see the loose fit of the hex key and the short distance it goes in


My car had the longer 77mm hex fitted as standard but as you can see from the video there is a lot and I mean a lot of movement from the hex shaft in the balancer shaft so although at the old hex shaft doesn't look too bad I'm sure it was only a matter of time till it went and i saw the dreaded red oil light.

I am really pleased that i decided to do the preventative measure and can now rest easy knowing there is a far superior part fitted into the car.

the garage charged me £350 labour to swap the parts over so the whole lot cost me £575 which i think is quite cheap for piece of mind. Its just a shame us Audi drivers have to foot the bill for this poor design and not Audi themselfs.

Once again don't bury your heads in the sand hoping it goes away bite the built and get it changed. Not just the Hex key but the whole balancer shaft as its the poor design and manufacture of the keyway in the balancer shaft that causes the hex key not to engage securely and eventually round off.

Just want to say Thank you to everyone who has helped and commented while i was researching this.
 
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Ive just replaced my Balance shaft, Key and tension kit . Also while its a fairly big job I replaced the cambelt, water pump and put a new clutch in. The shaft key was totally rounded off and the shaft was pretty warn, So got onto ordering a recon shaft and key from http://www.kmbpartsdirect.co.uk/
The key was the longer one 77mm so should never now fail on me.
So in all it cost £1000 for all the work and parts. Audi should really sort out this problem with the balance shafts but no doubt nothing will be done. Miles 124K 06 BLB
 
Gazwould is absolutely correct, I believe.

This is an explanation from RingEngineering who fixed my Audi A4.

-------------------------------
A lot of other companies are copying VW/Audi's 100mm upgrade but the hex keyway they manufacture is not nearly as hard as ours let alone VW/Audi's. We have had a lot of unhappy customers come to us to sort out problems that have arisen by other companies whom offered the 100mm upgrade.

I would also like to correct any misconception about how the the hex key is wearing out. The hex key only wears out because the key way in the balance shaft wears out and the residual debris causes wear on the hex key resulting in the hex key rounding off as well. (Think of sand paper, the material debris acts as an abrasive which smooths off the hex key)

Our upgrade is made from chrome vanadium, which is 10 times stronger than the standard balance shaft case hardened steel. Therefore there will be no wear on the old 77mm hexagonal key if we fitted that, let alone the new upgraded 77mm key way that we use.

Also the contact area on both 100mm and 77mm is exactly the same I can show you this as I have both these units in stock as proof and I can also show you the wear on the 100mm shaft. Our Chrome vanadium upgrade has an increased contact area of 60% over the VW/Audi design. And as the shaft we use is a 77mm shaft, it has a massive effect of the total torque load that the shaft can carry. A longer shaft (100mm) is more prone to torsion breakage/fracture (when the torque increases) over a shorter length shaft (77mm) with the same cross sectional area.
----------------------------------

It is the keyway that wears out first as it is softer than hex key, and debris causes wear to hex key.
I am not sure about 100mm key but they say the area (lengh) of contact betwen between hex key and keyway is extactly the same whichever you use.
He showed me I had my car repaired there. It looked like so. I couldn't see very well, but could confirm 100mm wasn't any better than 77mm.
So replacing just hexkey won't solve the problem permanently. New 77mm key is much harder than old 77mm key by the way. The old one is like a tube, but new one is strong solid metal.
 
Sorry to butt in but does anyone go down the route of using a 1.9 oil pump and dump the 2.0 system..? I've converted 3 of them 1 my own car and had no problem with it
 
Scooby18 said:
Sorry to butt in but does anyone go down the route of using a 1.9 oil pump and dump the 2.0 system..? I've converted 3 of them 1 my own car and had no problem with it
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Tell us more my friend, any pics or details on how this is done? I have no idea what the 1.9 system uses...
 
SDHA4SLine said:
Tell us more my friend, any pics or details on how this is done? I have no idea what the 1.9 system uses...
Click to expand...

Well it uses 1.9
Pump
Chain
Tensioner
Sprockets
Windage baffle tray
2.0l sump

U have to modify the sucker and
Windage tray and block one oil port job done.. And much much cheaper
 
Scooby18 said:
Well it uses 1.9
Pump
Chain
Tensioner
Sprockets
Windage baffle tray
2.0l sump

U have to modify the sucker and
Windage tray and block one oil port job done.. And much much cheaper
Click to expand...

I agree with this I have done a total of 4 conversions including my own. Hardest part is removing the sprocket/gear that drives the original oil pump. And as your there change the front crank main oil seal as well
 
good idea for people with chain driven oil pumps but is it ok for the gear driven ones?
 
So Ring use a 77 mm hex key ?

Surely a 100 mm hex key is further into a remanufactured balancer shaft providing more contact surface area?

I accept the torsional strength of a 77 over a 100 , if they were the same, but the genuine vag 100m keys are solid as apposed to the hollow 77.

Do Ring use their own solid 77 mm hex key ?
 
Got to say unless these guys are metallurgists or physicist I would take their theories ( regarding the key sizes ) with a pinch of salt.

We have some at my place of work, I shall ask them about this as I'm intrigued.
 
Yes, Ring uses new oem 77mm key, but new one as solid as 100mm - just shorter than 100mm.
( I don't know anything about the part number, but new 77mm key seems to be newer than 100mm key from the part number).

The old 77mm key was like a soft metal tube (and made in China) while new 77mm key is made in Germany.
They can do 100mm key mod, but they said they are so much confident in their current modification with 77mm.


Gazwould said:
So Ring use a 77 mm hex key ?

Surely a 100 mm hex key is further into a remanufactured balancer shaft providing more contact surface area?

I accept the torsional strength of a 77 over a 100 , if they were the same, but the genuine vag 100m keys are solid as apposed to the hollow 77.

Do Ring use their own solid 77 mm hex key ?
Click to expand...
 
tetskoma said:
Yes, Ring uses new oem 77mm key, but new one as solid as 100mm - just shorter than 100mm.
( I don't know anything about the part number, but new 77mm key seems to be newer than 100mm key from the part number).

The old 77mm key was like a soft metal tube (and made in China) while new 77mm key is made in Germany.
They can do 100mm key mod, but they said they are so much confident in their current modification with 77mm.
Click to expand...

As with many things in life, some will always value size over quality.

This thread already contains many, many posts that highlight the root cause of the problem as:
1. the soft metal of the keyway; 2. the alignment of the keyway relative to the oil pump and; 3. the diameter of the keyway relative to that of the hex key (ie, how tight a fit).

The (very) slightly loose key and softer metal keyway in the balance shaft cause wear in the keyway - the resulting swarf causes wear on the key and produces more swarf. Hence the keyway in the balance shaft is the problem.

"If" the above assessment of the problem is correct, then a deeper keyway and corresponding longer hex key are not entirely necessary but must add something to the fix.....at least for those concerned about size ;)
.
 
So everyone with the 100mm modification should be worried then ;)
 
Reading through some of this am I right in thinking I'm better to bite the bullet and go 3.0 V6 TDI?
I can't make my mind up between the 2.0 140 / 170 or the 3.0!!!!
 
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