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1.8T track car engine tuning G25-660

desertstorm Sep 2, 2018

  1. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Hi all,
    Looking for opinions,ideas on a proprosed engine upgrade for my BAM engined TT track car.
    Currently running 275bhp and 300Lb/ft of torque I am happy with the weight reduction, suspension mods, brakes etc car just needs some more oomph down the straights.
    Looking at hybrids an AET 380 would definitely have more go but having to replace the rods, clutch , injectors etc thinking I may as well push the boat out and fit a big turbo.
    Not looking for a dyno queen I want good strong power with a decent powerband that will be reliable on a track.
    Thinking 450-460bhp without using WMI to try and keep EGT's and IAT's under control.
    Thus looking at a G25-660 0.72 V-band turbo.
    https://www.boostunited.net/turboch...tt-g25-660-turbocharger-0.72-a/r-871389-5010s
    I know a G25-550 will make the target power and spool better but this is a track car and the 550 isn't any where near as efficient at the top end.
    Will be keeping the standard intake and head but plan to replace exhaust valves with Supertech items and looking for a reliable 7500 rpm limit.
    The following is from an interesting thread on the VwVortex forum
    https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...ou-think&p=111871521&viewfull=1#post111871521

    660 vs 6758 1.8t.png
    A 6758 makes good power on a 1.8t with good spool and the G25 will hopefully provide similar spool with a stronger top end. Certainly at the top end where it will be spending most of it's time it's very efficient.
    Looking at a TSR tubular manifold and downpipe
    https://www.tsr-performance.com/web...old-and-3-downpipe-for-1-8t-engined-vehicles/

    38mm Tial MVS wastegate, Bosch 1000cc injectors.
    Car already has a straight through 3 inch exchaust system and a DW65 fuel pump along with a wellycooler style FMIC.
    Rods, looking at PEC, IE , ZRP any suggestions or places for rods at a decent price.
    Clutch will be an LUK DMF pressure plate and a Sachs Paddle clutch, seems to work for several well sorted cars.
    Thoughts and ideas welcomed. Also places to buy parts and stuff at a good price.
     
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  3. hydro s3

    hydro s3 S3 amk Team Ming Blue Audi S3

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    I got my rods from tsr-performance. They where zrp 20mm rifle drilled. They where a good price aswell.
     
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  4. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    When looking at some Tuffty data logs uploaded he was hitting something like 550 EGTs on 100% load on a run even in May/June, that's idle on a k04.

    I actually thought you already had forged connecting rods, because you track your car. I suppose you can sell the downpipe and tip and keep the other mods.
     
  5. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    I’d like to see you try that turbo
     
  6. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    TSR mani is made by nortech and designed for a Tial hotside... Garrett vband hotside are a larger inlet I believe... Bill sells both

    <tuffty/>
     
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  7. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    Manifold wise here>> https://badger5.co.uk/turbo-exhausts/1-25nb-1-8t-tubular-exhaust-manifold-vband
    44mm external wastegate
    Have a browse by our webshop.. turbo kit is next on the list to build into the shop. (inc G25-550 & 660)
     
  8. JonnyDerv

    JonnyDerv Active Member

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    Are you thinking about going stroker?
     
  9. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    @badger5 thanks for the reply, I was hoping to use the TSR manifold and the associated downpipe. I was hoping this was going to be an easy solution to fitment and using a 38mm TIAL wastegate works out cheaper. Would I really need the larger wastegate with this set up?
    Seems nothing is so easy these days, Do you do a downpipe that would fit this turbo, I don't want to use a screamer pipe.
    @JonnyDerv not looking at a stroker. Well at least not yet.
     
  10. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Use a 44mm... all the 38mm applications I have seen suffer boost creep... also if using the MVR then it needs the water cooling really to have stable boost control as heat just seems to make them wander...

    Bill can get the downpipes too (also made by nortech) but he generally cuts the 2 bolt flange off and replaces it with a vband...

    <tuffty/>
     
  11. JonnyDerv

    JonnyDerv Active Member

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    Turbosmart hypergate FTW. Not exactly what you’d call cheap though, tend to be around £300 or so new.
     
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  13. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    turbosmart is Bills current preference on BT builds I believe

    <tuffty/>
     
  14. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    You absolutely need a 44mm gate.

    When you're trying to squeeze the most from a turbo, with all the boost, you can possibly get away with a smaller gate as you're not looking to bypass the turbine all that much.

    If you're wanting a sensible boost level you're looking to bypass the turbine and divert a fair bit of the flow, so you actually want a bigger gate for a lower power target.

    I've seen very good things of the EFR range when used in the right application. is a 6758 available with a 0.6x hot side?

    The G25 660 0.72 seems confused to me. the new G25 are supposed to spool sooner because they're a much smaller turbine (which will likely run hotter than a gt30 sized larger turbine), but then you go and kill some of that spool with a larger hot side? It seems like it's negating the gains of the new technology that's allowing a smaller frame to make more power.

    Manifold wise I would definitely look at Bills offerings, they are exceptionally high quality and from what I've seen they have ironed out the fitting niggles you can get with the TSR mani / dp packages. I think you'd be best off with one of Bills manifolds, then a custom made downpipe to suit your car.

    Head wise you definitely want to be fitting springs on the exhaust side whilst the valves are out at the very least. The rest is a gamble that some are prepared to take, but springs really ARE a necessity.

    Look forward to seeing how this progresses!
     
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  15. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    what do you think ours is??
    Made by nortech... who supply tsr
    Downpipe is made to order at same time of manifold so is available yes.
    configurable via our new webshop also>> www.badger5.co.uk under turbo section
     
  16. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Thanks @Prawn @badger5 @<tuffty/> for the feedback and information. Looks like a Badger5 manifold and downpipe with the 44mm gate then. Exhaust valves and springs. Any ideas on injectors?
    Seems for my needs something around the 1000cc mark is required if I want to run them at 3 bar.
    These Bosch items seem to do the job 0280158040
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/02801580...NJECTORS-BRAND-NEW-GENUINE-PART/382006230442?
    They need adaptors to fit and these seem to do the job.
    https://www.speedingparts.co.uk/p/f...jector-adapter-14mm-short-without-filter.html

    Any idea where to get the valves and springs, I assume just require the Exhaust springs.
    ZRP rods from TSR look a reasonable price
    https://www.tsr-performance.com/web...-connecting-rods-20mm-pin-h-beam-r-aud-001hl/ and some ACL bearings.
     
  17. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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  18. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Well Turbo arrived today. I was a little surprised how small it was especially the turbine wheel.

    DSC_3918.JPG

    DSC_3919.JPG

    Started collecting parts for the build. Injectors ordered with hopefully the correct spacers. Picked up some Kolbenschmidt sputter rod bearings for the rods. Think the manifold and downpipe will be from Bill along with a few other things such as Supertech exhaust valves and Cat cam spring set.
    Debating a little on the rods but looking like the PEC rifke drilled items. Question is I beam or H beam. There must be pro's and cons of the two. The only thing I have found is that the H beam is possibly better for higher torque applications.
    Anybody have any thoughts on this.
    The turbo seems to come with coolant and oil fittings . Any links to pre made oil drain / feed and coolant lines or do you make these up yourself? .
     
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  19. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    I would say the other way round. I beams seem the tougher shape to me... Heavier tho slightly.
    We do both styles..
     
  20. JonnyDerv

    JonnyDerv Active Member

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    It’s abit of a mine field trying to find out whether I or H beam is best, always seems to come down to “it depends”. A H beam quality steel rod is better than an I beam lesser quality rod. Generally people seem to say I is stronger (probably because I comes after H ;) ).

    Personally, I think the vast majority of people aren’t running anywhere near the power/torque to worry a quality H or I beam. I would go with a top manufacturer’s rods and you’ll be fine.
     
  21. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    having seen a few H beam rods develop a "wibble" on their edge, I beam is my preferred high torque type rod..
     
  22. JonnyDerv

    JonnyDerv Active Member

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    That’s interesting, same brand? Possible bad batch? I know of very high powered jap cars on H beams without issue. But it’s the same as everything car related, depends on many factors. Personally I wouldn’t dismiss a rod because it’s H rather than I though. I’m waiting for Z rated rods.
     
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  23. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    When I was looking to choose between the PEC Rifle Drilled H and I Beam - it appeared "I" were suited for 600BHP and higher revving engines? it's certainly confusing when a manufacturer chooses to make both types for the same price with no definite application differences?
     
  24. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Looks like I beam rods then. How much heavier are they compared to the H beam. Been looking around and can find no manufacturer figures for the weight. H beam are around 550g aren't they?.
    @badger5 what does the badgerwagon run ?
     
  25. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    On the PEC site it says they are lighter? And designed to go to 9500rpm where H news only good for 8000rpm.


    This says lighter too. But they are American so it's maybe #fakenews

     
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  26. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    H beam pec rifle drilled in badgerwagen
    New badgerwagen runs I beam Hurricanes
     
  27. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I think you should lend me the turbo for some back to back testing against a billet Gt3076 :laugh:

    Good stuff Karl!
     
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  28. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Prawn likes this.
  29. craigt1985

    craigt1985 Active Member

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    Got Rosten springs in my head, not installed the engine yet, so yet to see how they perform.
     
  30. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [​IMG]
    G25-550 on a 2litre BRZ


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  31. StaceyS3

    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    Not been on here on a while but this come up as a notification for a recommended thread. Ive followed your tdi build and your discussions with bobby on his, I’m sure you’ll produce a nice interesting one here and will follow

    The I beam and H beam debate can go both ways depending on weight and qty of material. From what I understand is that for a given weight the I beam is stronger.

    Found this interesting pic some time back

    [​IMG]

    Want light could go ally though lol

    [​IMG]

    Quite keen to see some results on the G series turbos in real life applications on the 1.8ts
     
  32. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I'm dead keen to see how the g25 does.

    Without the full picture you can't read too much into that BRZ plot, but on face value alone its a shade over 400bhp and not spooling fully until after 4k.

    I'd have expected more!
     
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  34. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    I agree prawn.

    It’s only 13psi tho, so top end numbers pretty good


    I have been conned. It’s on flex fuel, so ethanol. Bloody ‘mericans
     
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  35. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    See that's the problem :laugh:

    If that's gate pressure and 13psi then it appears good again. No boost control getting it going so slower start is to be expected.

    So many variables. I've seen one from a megane claiming the same power as a 3071 but 600rpm gains in spool.

    Until we see one on a 20vt its all guessing games!

    I REALLY want to see one though. Not just spool and power, but also how hot they run with that much flow through such a tiny turbine
     
  36. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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  37. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    At the end of the day this is the first time in god knows how many years that Garrett have revised the turbine side of their turbos.
    The GT series have still kept with the more advanced competitors, so surely these G25 are bound to excel


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  38. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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  39. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Comparing turbo results against other engines is subjective at best... classic being Evo's... number of times I have seen Evo results used to gauge 1.8t's and its always been way different

    Can't even compare 1.8t to 1.8t... never seen similar hardware perform exactly the same..

    Just get it fitted... see where its at... be interesting to see if the claims for the turbo pan out... be a change considering how disappointing GTX's are

    <tuffty/>
     
  40. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    I agree with you difficult to compare as you aren't comparing apples with apples. Too many variables but the comparison on the STI is interesting. Need to get on and get more bits ordered.
     
  41. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Interesting thing I found on the SuperTech site when looking into the difference between Rosten Stainless valves or Supertech Inconel items.
    https://www.supertechperformance.com/faq
    Q: What are the operating temperatures of the valves?
    A: Our stainless valve has a 1,460 F. (approx 1900 F EGT) The INCONEL valves have 1,600 F (approx 2200 F EGT)
    Converting those temps to degrees C.
    A: Our stainless valve has a 793 C. (approx 1038 C EGT) The INCONEL valves have 870 C (approx 1200 C EGT)
    The fact that the Rosten valves are one piece and not hollow should make them a lot more sturdy than the standard items.
    I think I would be worried if EGT's were over 1000 degrees C.
     
  42. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Are the rosten inconel?... supertech exhaust valves are two piece with the join right up by the grooves... can't recall the reason why off hand though

    Supertech do stainless valves but they are more designed for NASP applications... sodium filled or inconel for turbo applications

    <tuffty/>
     
  43. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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