APY cam timing

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pyle

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Hey guys

Has anyone tried different cam timing like ****** or advance independent cams or both? What is best cam timing with going NA cams either exhaust only or intake only? I'm thinking of trying 1 cam tooth ****** of both cams to move the power band higher. Any idea or suggestion is welcome.

Thanks for reading
 
What power level are you at with the car?


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Fitting NA cams on the 1.8t engine is proven to work but the advantages only really show up with larger frame turbos that can take advantage of the extra flow that you get above around 6K RPM. On a standard K04 turbo engine it just doesn't have the flow at high RPM to take much advantage. if you were to do anything just fit the intake cam.There are several threads around with useful info .I don't think you have VVT on your engine so that doesn't help if fitting NA cams . I fitted just a NA APG intake cam on my G25-660 build and went from 460 odd bhp to over 500bhp but all at the top end. Very noticeable when driving the car hard it just wanted to pull cleanly and strong all the way to the red line. But this is with a turbo that's happy making 2 bar of boost at 8K RPM and doesn't have the large exhaust restriction that the standard K04 manifold / turbine is.

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/1-8-n-a-cams-in-a-1-8t.159131/

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8192649-1-8T-Camshaft-data-IVO-EVO

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desertstorm said:
Fitting NA cams on the 1.8t engine is proven to work but the advantages only really show up with larger frame turbos that can take advantage of the extra flow that you get above around 6K RPM. On a standard K04 turbo engine it just doesn't have the flow at high RPM to take much advantage. if you were to do anything just fit the intake cam.There are several threads around with useful info .I don't think you have VVT on your engine so that doesn't help if fitting NA cams . I fitted just a NA APG intake cam on my G25-660 build and went from 460 odd bhp to over 500bhp but all at the top end. Very noticeable when driving the car hard it just wanted to pull cleanly and strong all the way to the red line. But this is with a turbo that's happy making 2 bar of boost at 8K RPM and doesn't have the large exhaust restriction that the standard K04 manifold / turbine is.

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/1-8-n-a-cams-in-a-1-8t.159131/

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8192649-1-8T-Camshaft-data-IVO-EVO

View attachment 209176
Click to expand...

Nailed it in one, that’s a good show of effectiveness on a large turbo build mate. I was wondering this the other day when I posted up my cam thread. Interesting results just swapping out the inlet cam..... any thoughts on the exhaust cam. My current build has both on the hybrid AET-380. I do wonder if just running inlet would be more beneficial than both.


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I'm doing my build as we speak and I'll be targeting 300-320 on a k04 hybrid. I just want to improve engine efficiency with cam timing ****** or advance. I know the turbo itself has limited flow but so does the engine's breathing capabilities. So I wanted to know if altering the timing will help the engine produce as much power as it can from the air the turbo has to offer aiming @ improving top end as it's a small frame and already has decent spool. Not sure if I explained my idea properly..
 
I think the vast amount of gains come from the intake cam. This allows the engine to breath a lot better at high RPM with the extra valve lift and more duration. As I am rebuilding the engine I am going to change the exhaust cam for NA item. Indeed the head is a NA head as well.
The exhaust cam should help spool a little as it will increase pressure in the exhaust manifold with it's earlier opening point. maybe reduce pumping losses a little as well to help power.
I bought a complete APG cylinder head for £80 to get the cams from it initially. As I needed a new head I am using the APG NA head and changing out the exhaust valves for supertech inconel items and fitting the Rosten uprated springs in the head. And refitting the original cams back in the head.
And with an AUM block/crank it is a bit of a mix up. NA head is the same small port casting as any other turbo head. Intake valves are the same part number.
 
At 300-320bhp I doubt you’ll see much results. My AET-380 hybrid produced around 347bhp I think with standard cams. I then went on with NA inlet and exhaust cams, larger inlet manifold, 70mm throttle-body, secondary water/meth nozzle and it’s now at 391bhp. Research has shown that the NA cams do aid with power gains..... but bigger the power bigger the result.


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desertstorm said:
I think the vast amount of gains come from the intake cam. This allows the engine to breath a lot better at high RPM with the extra valve lift and more duration. As I am rebuilding the engine I am going to change the exhaust cam for NA item. Indeed the head is a NA head as well.
The exhaust cam should help spool a little as it will increase pressure in the exhaust manifold with it's earlier opening point. maybe reduce pumping losses a little as well to help power.
I bought a complete APG cylinder head for £80 to get the cams from it initially. As I needed a new head I am using the APG NA head and changing out the exhaust valves for supertech inconel items and fitting the Rosten uprated springs in the head. And refitting the original cams back in the head.
And with an AUM block/crank it is a bit of a mix up. NA head is the same small port casting as any other turbo head. Intake valves are the same part number.
Click to expand...

When are you swapping the head Karl? Are you doing any other changes that might effect power increase? Be interesting to see what the NA exhaust cam will do on your setup.


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I've seen the N/A cam test thread and the guys saw mostly EGTs lowering from the exhaust cam but nothing in there about how to time them. I'm interested mostly in the timing and it's effect on the power band. With a small frame I'm willing to sacrifice low end for top end.
 
S3AMJ said:
When are you swapping the head Karl? Are you doing any other changes that might effect power increase? Be interesting to see what the NA exhaust cam will do on your setup.


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I am swapping the head over as part of the engine rebuild after the piston exited the block. It will have slightly lower compression pistons so may be able to add a little more tining. Since the last time it was on the dyno it's gained an SEM intake manifold which will always help compared to the standard BAM manifold it was running before.
 
desertstorm said:
I am swapping the head over as part of the engine rebuild after the piston exited the block. It will have slightly lower compression pistons so may be able to add a little more tining. Since the last time it was on the dyno it's gained an SEM intake manifold which will always help compared to the standard BAM manifold it was running before.
Click to expand...

What caused the failure mate?


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pyle said:
I've seen the N/A cam test thread and the guys saw mostly EGTs lowering from the exhaust cam but nothing in there about how to time them. I'm interested mostly in the timing and it's effect on the power band. With a small frame I'm willing to sacrifice low end for top end.
Click to expand...
1 cam tooth is a lot of timing change, If you are going to alter valve timing you need an adjustable cam timing wheel and you would probably be better off spending your money and time on something else. A drop in EGT's is not much of surprise having more exhaust timing and better flow to try and reduce back pressure a little on the exhaust side will help EGT's.
If you look at some of the posts Stacey made he was make 1-2 degree changes and noticing changes,
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...-IVO-EVO&p=100805785&viewfull=1#post100805785
 
Well this na cam talk has made me think now if it's worth the bother putting them.in my k04-380 hybrid engine. I was going to put them in and a 2 nozzle meth system.
 
hydro s3 said:
Well this na cam talk has made me think now if it's worth the bother putting them.in my k04-380 hybrid engine. I was going to put them in and a 2 nozzle meth system.
Click to expand...

I saw good gains with a 2nd nozzle and the NA cams, just remember I changed my inlet manifold and throttlebody as well though mate. I think the K04-380 hybrid is the tipping point of hybrids. Others you might not see any difference, but it’s been proven to have some effect with the K04-380.


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hydro s3 said:
Well this na cam talk has made me think now if it's worth the bother putting them.in my k04-380 hybrid engine. I was going to put them in and a 2 nozzle meth system.
Click to expand...
You will see gains with the k04-380 it has enough flow at the top end, in a different league to a standard k04.
 
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I've got a set APG cams here waiting to be installed on my next G25-660 build, got them cheap, so why not :)
 
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Anyone fancy posting up the spec of the APG cams, duration, lift, etc on both inlet and exhaust. I know it’s been covered in the original cam thread. Be good as a reference point though. For comparing other cams


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The often seen list of cams and timings.Thing to notice is that it's not just good enough to say I want an ADR intake cam as there are three different ADR cams. Two AGN intake cams. I fitted the F revision AGN / APG cams. These cams are fitted in cars with VVT so have the later opening time meaning they also close later which helps with cylinder filling at high RPM.

inlet:

058109021 = ADR und AFY 8,78mm, 210°, 4° n.OT
058109021.B = APX, ANB, AEB,APU, AJL, AGU, AQA, ARZ, AJQ, APP, APY, AUL 7,67mm, 190°, 18° n.OT
058109021.K = ADR, APT, ARG, AVV 8,41mm, 202°, 16° n.OT
058109021.M = AWT, AUM, ARX, ARY, AUQ, AMK, BAM, AUL, APP 7,67mm, 190°, 18° n.OT
058109021.F = AGN, APG 8,41mm, 202°, 18° n. OT
058109021.E = AWB 8,6mm, 207°, 9° n.OT
058109021.D = ADR, AGN 8,41mm, 202°, 12° n. OT


exhaust:

058109022.B = AQA, ARZ, AJQ, APP, APY, AEB, APU, ANB, AJL, AWT, AGU, AUM, ARX, ARY, AUQ, AMK, BAM 9,3mm, 210°, 10° v.OT
058109022.C = ADR, AFY, APT, ARG, AVV 10,25mm, 210°, 8° v.OT
058109022.D = AGN, APG 10,4mm, 210°, 8° v.OT

v.OT = vor dem Oberen Totpunkt = before Top Dead Centre
n.OT = nach dem oberen Totpunkt = after Top Dead Centre
 
Yesterday day I read on another forum a post which states:

Big turbo low boost: intake cam
Mid sized turbo high boost: exhaust cam
Very small turbo with very high boost: intake cam..

I think I qualify as a small turbo high boost so exhaust cam only. It maybe try both cams with the inlet cam retarded a lot.
 
No VVT on your car. The only way you can ****** a standard intake cam is by setting it up one tooth out on the cam which is a big timing change and will give you too much overlap and you will lose out at high RPM. If I was you I would go with just the NA intake cam timed normally .
One of the big issues you get with K04 turbos is high back pressure on the exhaust side. Typically the exhaust manifolds are not great in terms of flow and the small turbine, great for spool, causes quite a restriction.
Running a larger exhaust cam allows more overlap and during this time high pressure exhaust gas can flow back into the cylinder, not good.
 
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