Kerb damage help! Negative Camber

DeadLock · May 5, 2020

Car is up on blocks

Silly boy here whacked my front driver's side wheel off a kerb moving sideways, don't ask :redface new:

Noticed when I turn the wheel all the way when doing a u-turn etc the driver's side makes a noise before straightening backup. Nearly sure there is also a squeak, and a slight wobble when driving I think.

To my horror after a long spin noticed the wheel has a 'negative camber', that is the bottom of the wheel is further in that the top, and the whole wheel seems to be out further than the wheel arch by about a 1/4 or 1/2 inch. There is also a small outwards dent on the top of the arch and a crack in the paint. When I saw all this it dawned on me the wheel probably wobbles in the arch as I'm driving.

So now I have it up on blocks and can't tell what part might be bent or needing replacing. It all looks fine and the same as the other side minus the axle which is obviously different on both sides. Any of you experts able to see anything wrong from the pics or know what might be the problem?

e9_mustii · May 5, 2020

DeadLock said:
Car is up on blocks

Silly boy here whacked my front driver's side wheel off a kerb moving sideways, don't ask

Noticed when I turn the wheel all the way when doing a u-turn etc the driver's side makes a noise before straightening backup. Nearly sure there is also a squeak, and a slight wobble when driving I think.

To my horror after a long spin noticed the wheel has a 'negative camber', that is the bottom of the wheel is further in that the top, and the whole wheel seems to be out further than the wheel arch by about a 1/4 or 1/2 inch. There is also a small outwards dent on the top of the arch and a crack in the paint. When I saw all this it dawned on me the wheel probably wobbles in the arch as I'm driving.

So now I have it up on blocks and can't tell what part might be bent or needing replacing. It all looks fine and the same as the other side minus the axle which is obviously different on both sides. Any of you experts able to see anything wrong from the pics or know what might be the problem?

Hey bud yea i was gona say its probably a bend track rod end, but it all.look straight if you can take it to a local garage the impact may have just knock the wheel alignment out of place as it may be able to realign it without changing parts obvious avoid any long or motorways until its resolved. I would avoid kwik fit because where moto is I'd rather make and excuse than attempt to fix it and if they ask you it because of a collision of any sort they'll.say no we cant fix it. So you have to say no its because of a pothole u didnt see

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DeadLock · May 6, 2020

Thanks mate top tip there you've obviously got prior experience !

Found a really good video on the tube '5 Things to Check if You Hit a Curb' so going to have a look at these after work today.

Wheel alignment has been a little bit off anyway because the inside tyre tread has been really worn compared to the outer tyre. Maybe I can fix that as well adjusting the track rod

e9_mustii · May 6, 2020

DeadLock said:
Thanks mate top tip there you've obviously got prior experience !

Found a really good video on the tube '5 Things to Check if You Hit a Curb' so going to have a look at these after work today.

Wheel alignment has been a little bit off anyway because the inside tyre tread has been really worn compared to the outer tyre. Maybe I can fix that as well adjusting the track rod

Yea i had a **** t bone the rear of my bmw 118d whilst i was at a zebra cross and that being rwd my car was crab walking so the rear and front all together didn't line up nothing was bent just out of alignment and took it to kwik fix you can guess what they said, so i ended walking into the bay with my car on the ramp saying ill do it my self had the cheek to ask me for the full amount of 60 quid gave a 20 quid for the use of the ramp and a spanner and drove off

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e9_mustii · May 6, 2020

I wouldnt adjust it blindly tho youd need a wheel alignment kit plus you would need the car in the air as you have to adjust caster camber and toe in/out in degrees

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ab1702 · May 6, 2020

Hold on a minute here.. wheel alignment is the last thing you do when everything else has been checked/repaired.
Everything does look ok behind the wheel so I’d start with the actual wheel first as it may be bent/buckled. Take one of your other wheels off and put it where the damaged wheel was and see if that makes a difference.

When you have found the cause and fixed it, then get a 4 wheel alignment (but not at kwikfit!)

e9_mustii · May 6, 2020

ab1702 said:
Hold on a minute here.. wheel alignment is the last thing you do when everything else has been checked/repaired.
Everything does look ok behind the wheel so I’d start with the actual wheel first as it may be bent/buckled. Take one of your other wheels off and put it where the damaged wheel was and see if that makes a difference.

When you have found the cause and fixed it, then get a 4 wheel alignment (but not at kwikfit!)

Yea your.right i forgot to mention the alloy way have warped/buckled, thanks @ab1702

And just to clarify if you car is a quattro definatly get all 4 aligned with a garage that use "hunter wheel alignment gear' , but during the pandemic id say go to a local garage and get it aligned to allow for safe driving and later on you get the aligned properly

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DeadLock · May 6, 2020

Thanks guys, really helpful!

Got a chance to get at it today - jacked it up and let the front wheels spin. Major wobbles on driver's side, passenger side perfect. When steering fully locked, a slight scratching noise coming and going.

Swapped the wheels around as suggested - now have a slight wobble on the driver's side, and passenger major wobbles - so the wheel must be buckled although couldn't see it just eyeing it.

The fact that there's still a small wobble on the driver's side might mean there is other damage too. From what I can see, the gap between the wishbone and brake housing pan is much narrower on the driver's side, and has a small dent where the pan was pushed in against the wishbone. There doesn't seem to be any noticeable difference in the wheel bearing/ braking units on either side, no noticeable wobbling or anything. Could the slight wobble be fixed by adjusting the track rod? Or do I need to replace the wheel bearing and wishbone? Maybe the wishbone first, it also has paint freshly cracked off that looks like a torque twisting force caused it.

Maybe lots of cars have a slight wobble in one wheel - maybe I can just drive it as is. Can they fix alloy wheels or is it for the scrappers. :scared2:

e9_mustii · May 6, 2020

DeadLock said:
Thanks guys, really helpful!

Got a chance to get at it today - jacked it up and let the front wheels spin. Major wobbles on driver's side, passenger side perfect. When steering fully locked, a slight scratching noise coming and going.

Swapped the wheels around as suggested - now have a slight wobble on the driver's side, and passenger major wobbles - so the wheel must be buckled although couldn't see it just eyeing it.

The fact that there's still a small wobble on the driver's side might mean there is other damage too. From what I can see, the gap between the wishbone and brake housing pan is much narrower on the driver's side, and has a small dent where the pan was pushed in against the wishbone. There doesn't seem to be any noticeable difference in the wheel bearing/ braking units on either side, no noticeable wobbling or anything. Could the slight wobble be fixed by adjusting the track rod? Or do I need to replace the wheel bearing and wishbone? Maybe the wishbone first, it also has paint freshly cracked off that looks like a torque twisting force caused it.

Maybe lots of cars have a slight wobble in one wheel - maybe I can just drive it as is. Can they fix alloy wheels or is it for the scrappers.

Could be your wheel bearings are shot which would explain wheel wobble when jacked up you shouldnt have freeplay if you try to shake your wheel its a major mot fail aswell as dangerous if not adressed, i wouldnt drive it like that but if you wheel is wobbling when you rotate it then something is bent or buckeled

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DeadLock · May 6, 2020

There's no freeplay whatsover, when I shake the wheel they're tight. I wonder what else could do it. The only other thing I noticed was as the driveshaft was going around there was very slight movement in it as if buckled but I notice it isn't a mechanism that works straight anyway I think. Without changing parts now I'm out of ideas. :whistle2:

e9_mustii · May 6, 2020

DeadLock said:
There's no freeplay whatsover, when I shake the wheel they're tight. I wonder what else could do it. The only other thing I noticed was as the driveshaft was going around there was very slight movement in it as if buckled but I notice it isn't a mechanism that works straight anyway I think. Without changing parts now I'm out of ideas.

Drive shafts will.have slight inward and outward freeplay but should remain dead straight on rotation

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DeadLock · May 6, 2020

Crikey it could be that! Thinking of getting the alloy mended and driving it for a while to see if I notice anything bad while driving like noises or pulling to the side or bumpiness. Besides that I may as well buy a drive shaft CV joint, and wheel bearing prob together set me back a bit! Maybe driving it with a normal wheel might straighten it all out haha

e9_mustii · May 6, 2020

DeadLock said:
Crikey it could be that! Thinking of getting the alloy mended and driving it for a while to see if I notice anything bad while driving like noises or pulling to the side or bumpiness. Besides that I may as well buy a drive shaft CV joint, and wheel bearing prob together set me back a bit! Maybe driving it with a normal wheel might straighten it all out haha

Yea if its not too bad it can be repaired but there is a risk of cracking and trust me you won't want it to go south whilst driving ita not worth the risk even if nothing happens there a chance it can and that can either cause you or some one else harm, play it safe. I mean yea take ot around the block to feel and listen for faults. Just dont do the meh ill sort it out later , and drive it for 3 weeks lol

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aqibi2000 · May 7, 2020

DeadLock said:
Crikey it could be that! Thinking of getting the alloy mended and driving it for a while to see if I notice anything bad while driving like noises or pulling to the side or bumpiness. Besides that I may as well buy a drive shaft CV joint, and wheel bearing prob together set me back a bit! Maybe driving it with a normal wheel might straighten it all out haha

would recommend a ebay replacement wheel

DeadLock · May 7, 2020

Thanks for the replies guys - a bit fed up with it today, want my motor back on the road! Aqibi2000 I found a replacement wheel on ebay thanks! As Mustii says it's probably too bigt a risk getting a wheel mended when the damage is subtle and so bad.

I forgot to mention the wheel nuts were really stiff on it as well. Very tough to get off and felt like there was a problem with the threads. Not sure if that's to do with the wheel hub or the wheel maybe bent slightly and putting the stress on.

Took another look at the driveshaft earlier, looks like there's been some weeping where it meets the engine block. I'm thinking it might be a tiny bit warped. Going to check it closer while running in a bit, will update. Going to whip the wheels off and measure the distances left and right. Have to get this sorted out.

DeadLock · May 7, 2020

Yep had a much better look at it now and took measurements. Driveshaft has a very slight wobble of about 1-2mm using the screwdriver test ha. Looks worse when peering in to where it connects to the block (CV joint looks to be off by more.).

Measured the bottom of the brake disc to the wall compared to the top, about 2 inches in the difference. A closer comparison between the passenger side and driver's side wishbone shows it is pushed back slightly which means the bottom of the brake disc is pulled inwards, and I'm thinking this then causes the top to be pulled outwards (so maybe the hub and rotor arm are also pulled off alignment with the disc).
It has crossed my mind the hub or other bits could be misaligned also which makes it look like the wishbone is off - but I figure the easiest and cheapest thing to replace to start with is the wishbone. :shrug:

DeadLock · May 16, 2020

Ok guys have an update - replaced the wishbone aka lower control arm including ball joint and has fixed the wobble mostly. Was an absolute pig to get off. Ball joint was snapped so had to hack saw it.

Now I am left with the stark looking positive camber problem. It's out by about 2.5 inches. Someone please tell me theres a way to adjust the camber using the suspension ... praying... ?????

DeadLock · May 16, 2020

Can a wheel hub get bent or twisted? I've measured the distance from the suspension strut body to the top of the brake disc and and it's about 10mm different to the other side. Every other measurement comparing left and right is the same.
So I'm thinking the wheel hub unit has been forced in at the bottom and either slightly bent or the suspension strut has slightly bent where it clamps on to the hub.
That's about the best I've got. I've never replaced a suspension strut or wheel hub so a bit apprehensive. Any advice very welcome at this stage?!

SootySport · May 16, 2020

You won’t be able to loose a2.5” gap, the strut or subframe must be bent. Also have a close look at the driveshaft, it may be pushed into the gearbox, compare it with the other side.

DeadLock · May 17, 2020

Thanks Sooty. Worried now. You dont think it could be a wheel bearing housing (the big brute the suspension strut attaches to) bent downwards with the force of the kerb bang? I'm thinking if it was only bent even <10mm that would be a difference in visible wheel camber of inches.
I also notice stress tears on a stress bushing in the centre of the chassis - pics attached.
Also pics of the wheels side by side so you can see it sticking out past the arch.
What a nightmare.

SootySport · May 17, 2020

That’s not good, no ones going to Be able to diagnose the damage over a forum. You need a second pair eyes to start over and assess the damage. Unfortunately it looks an expensive fix. If it drives ok with no clunking and grinding, then I would assumethe driveshaft is ok.

DeadLock · May 17, 2020

I actually happenstanced across a thread last night with very similar damage on an S3. The poster said the camber was eventually fixed by replacing the suspension strut and wheel hub housing. I can pick them up for under 100 quid so it's worth a shot. Then it's tail between the legs to the mechanics !

SootySport · May 17, 2020

Well I do wish it will cure the damage, good luck.

DeadLock · May 19, 2020

At a standstill this evening I'm afraid! Utterly hopeless as I cant even get the plastic guard off the top of the strut mounts for access! I'm presuming the wipers are holding it on but after unscrewing them they wont budge! Tried for an hour rocking them and levering them to no avail. Hopeless

George Kost · May 20, 2020

You have to remove first the wipers yes.
Then you can remove the cover. See attachment.
Best regards

DeadLock · May 20, 2020

Thanks a lot for that George, I tried again today and cracked the plastic. I just can't budge the wipers. Any ideas very very welcome!!!!

George Kost · May 20, 2020

Hello,
this is the instructions regarding the wiper arms. There is a tool used.
I have never removed mine so I cannot give any more info unfortunately.
I wonder if the tool nust be used or if someone managed to remove the arms without the tool.
Best regards.

SootySport · May 20, 2020

Wipers will be rusted onto the splined spindles, keep spraying penetrating fluid on them.
Put wipers in service position, two large flat screwdrivers, one in each hand, tips under the wiper , twist them together and it should pop off. If they are well rusted on then you’ll have to use the mini puller .

DeadLock · May 20, 2020

Thanks very much George and Sooty, I don't feel so defeated now! Maybe I can give it one more shot! Need to get myself an impact driver though as these strut and stub nuts look welded.

DeadLock · May 22, 2020

No luck. See pics. They wont budge. I heated them with a torch, then soaked them for 2 days in wd 40. Wont move. But it is strange they both are stuck in the same way. Makes me believe there is a special way to do it, like a certain angle they must be at, or maybe unlocked by computer or something. They were moving freely like normal but after pulling at them some more today they now wont rotate at all. You guys sure they dont need unlocking by computer etc? I could try pulling the fuse.

ab1702 · May 22, 2020

DeadLock said:
No luck. See pics. They wont budge. I heated them with a torch, then soaked them for 2 days in wd 40. Wont move. But it is strange they both are stuck in the same way. Makes me believe there is a special way to do it, like a certain angle they must be at, or maybe unlocked by computer or something. They were moving freely like normal but after pulling at them some more today they now wont rotate at all. You guys sure they dont need unlocking by computer etc? I could try pulling the fuse.

Go and buy a tin of elbow grease as that’s all they need!

No seriously though, give them a gentle tap with a hammer first which may loosen them up a little bit but like I say just a gentle tap. Then get a bar on the ratchet or spanner that you’re using to give you some more leverage and they’ll come undone eventually. Make sure you’re turning anti clockwise aswell!

DeadLock · May 23, 2020

haha I'll try my best! Not for the want of elbow grease though, already cracked the plastic levering with a pry bar

ahtcap · May 23, 2020

Look at this thread for removing the wiper arms,Its for the rear wiper but the principle is the same

ab1702 · May 23, 2020

DeadLock said:
haha I'll try my best! Not for the want of elbow grease though, already cracked the plastic levering with a pry bar

Sorry I thought you couldn’t get the nuts off the wipers but having just read the previous comments you’ve got the nuts off but you can’t get the wiper arms off can you?
If so you need what’s called a wiper removal tool, loads of them on eBay etc.
If you don’t get one you’ll just end up doing more damage

DeadLock · May 23, 2020

Exhausted. Gave it the whole day. Managed to get the wipers off eventually after a lot of banging and pulling, in the end banging the splines either way worked best to loosen.
Then went at it. Unfortunately the track rod was the only part that wouldn't cooperate. Spent 3 hours on it heating it, prying it, banging it, and using the jack on it, just wouldn't pop out of the stub. I jacked the car up on the rod and whacked it for ages still wouldn't move. Had to leave it. Eventually just got the susp strut clamp off and managed to get it off with a combination of jack and big hammer.
Swapped the suspension strut. While off had them side by side, checking for any bending, nothing. Put it on anyway and all back together and.....

no fix

Sadly the camber is the same. Out past the wheel arch. Thinking about it, the only bits I can think of that would cause the wheel to stick out are the suspension strut, control arm, and track rod. But track rod not as strong as the control arm so probably not that.

Only one thing left to do, bring it to a garage.

Fail.

DeadLock · Jun 22, 2020

Success at last. Brought it to a garage a few weeks back. Fixed in 2 hours - they just changed the stub. ***!!!!!!!! After all that. Just goes to show. If you don't got the right tools, you can't do the job.

SootySport · Jun 23, 2020

At last

Kerb damage help! Negative Camber

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