300HP Success (to be verified on dyno)

IanMW · Sep 30, 2019

Hello,

Finally got some good news

After the trials & tribulations of the last 10 months, looks like I have finally got to the self set target of 300HP.

After the disappointing dyno run of the 12st September 255.8HP (see here for a report on the dyno run - https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 3&start=45), I came back to the garage mended the exhaust blow, turbo to manifold, only to find that there was also a blow head to manifold. I wasn't surprised as I thought I could hear a blow from infront of the turbo as well as feel the blow at the top of the turbo, this blow was also mended. When I say mended the turbo to manifold had a new Audi gasket fitted but still blew so I used a little exahust paste and finally got it to seal, not wanting to completely remove the exhaust manifold as I have a stainless tubular one which are notoriously difficult to remove & refit, I loosened the nuts around the blow applied a little exhaust paste & retightened which has mended the blow. Not sure how long the fixes will last (hopefully they are the sort of temporary fixes that last forever) but have prepared my self for a weekend of grazed knuckles & swearing at some point.

After "mending" the exhaust blows I tightened the wastegate on the turbo to about 13PSI from 10PSI that it ran for the turbo & added some extra fuel in the mid range on the map after Chris at Surrey Rolling Road commented that the fuel in the mid range was a bit lean.

Then out for a couple of 3rd gear drags, it felt faster and I had turbo flutter\over boost on acceleration which hadn’t happened before. So I looked at the log expecting to see 220 - 230 g\s air flow, to my surprise it peaked at over 260 g\s

There is still some work to do as I don't think the engine would last long if I tried to run at full tilt for very long, as you can see from the attached logs;

- The Injectors are maxing out - still need to fit the 440cc injectors & uprated fuel pump I already have.
- The turbo flutter\over boost - I tried to remove this by changing the map which didn't work, I think I'll get a manual boost controller & fit it in parallel with the N75 as this appears to be the best\easiest way to remove the flutter\over boost.
- The EGT's are high over 950c (anybody know what is acceptable?) - hopefully some extra fuel & a FMIC will help this.
- The ESP turns it's self off when you accelerate hard and stays off until the car is restarted - not sure what to do about this (any ideas welcome)

So still a little work to do, but hopefully I should have it back on the dyno in the next couple of months.

superkarl · Sep 30, 2019

Standard EGT protection is 920 degrees. This is when it adds fuel to cool, but with no head room on your injectors it won’t be able to

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IanMW · Sep 30, 2019

Cheers,

I'll see what happens with the 440cc injectors and the FMIC, then may be water-meth injection?

<tuffty/> · Sep 30, 2019

IanMW said:
The ESP turns it's self off when you accelerate hard and stays off until the car is restarted - not sure what to do about this (any ideas welcome)

Have you checked for any fault codes? ESP is linked to MAF (needs to be able to see load to allow ESP to control it)... if there is an issue with the MAF data then the ESP will be disabled....

As it is resettable then my money is on the ECU is seeing more airflow than its expecting so you will need to find the table that manages that part of the protection and lift it accordingly

<tuffty/>

badger5 · Sep 30, 2019

mbc? no no no
if you can adjust the map just adjust the map surely?

IanMW · Oct 14, 2019

Hello all,

Well 440cc injectors fitted and map adjusted to suit, all seems to be going well, had issues with the ARMD around 4000rpm and had to make the last 2 rows of the relevant maps 100 or 99.999... as it changes it to, might need to numb it still further as it's getting a little wobble further up the rev range.

I now need some confirmation on the following;

I have an air flow issue from about 3400rpm - 4200rpm

I'm thinking that the air flow is just too much for the engine to use and the air is just backing up and I just need to reel in the map abit at this rev range, I did find this thread which has an almost identical graph but the thread never seems to actually say what the issue was?

https://www.vwvortex.com/FrankenTT/page10.htm

Any ideas appreciated, log attached.

PS
FMIC arrived today

and I binned the MBC idea

badger5 · Oct 15, 2019

Surge. inadequate intake (restriction) and/or too much boost too soon

IanMW · Oct 15, 2019

Thanks,

I think is to much to soon.

Any idea what the max load should be in 3400 - 4200rpm range without it surging?

<tuffty/> · Oct 15, 2019

Can vary based on hardware... Turn it down until it no longer surges

<tuffty/>

IanMW · Oct 15, 2019

Cheers,
I thought that would be the answer, hopefully it won't take to many adjustments to dial it in, might get time to do it at the weekend.
Then I'll probably need to do it again once the FMIC goes on, when I get the time to fit it.

badger5 · Oct 16, 2019

IanMW said:
Thanks,

I think is to much to soon.

Any idea what the max load should be in 3400 - 4200rpm range without it surging?

what is your boost profile?

IanMW · Oct 16, 2019

Boost profile;

badger5 · Oct 16, 2019

its not tho is it............. thats just limit of map sensor (2550mb) and a std k04 will not hold more than 2200mb after 5500-6krpm+ either

IanMW · Oct 16, 2019

It's a hybrid F23.

That's the best I've got, I don't have a way to mesure the boost past the limit of the MAP sensor\ECU. (got a boost guage but haven't fitted it yet)

Full list of mods for clarity;

- Mushroom Air filter
- One of your TIP's (Badger5)
- Stainless tubular manifold
- F23 hybrid Turbo
- 3" full exhaust & down pipe.
- Decat

Purchased to be installed
- FMIC

Other points of note;
- Rebuilt head
- New cambelt
- New water pump
- New oil pump
- New transmission oil
- New Haldex oil & filter
- Rebuilt Brakes
- Coilovers
- Little tree air filter (Vanilla)

badger5 · Oct 16, 2019

best fit your gauge fella.. you are blind to what boost its doing. all you know is its >22psi
in my experience (f23 is 6+6 comp wheel) same as 2283 in tfsi k04-064 (it used to be), and that wheel inherently is a surgy mofo

rolling in 2200mb until past 4500rpm then let it go will ease the surge you will be having, but it will drop your torque onset in the process

IanMW · Oct 16, 2019

Yep,

Fit the gauge and find the optimum mapping, I do like the torque pull though, going to be a bit of trial & error to find the happy place.

IanMW · Oct 21, 2019

I've reduced the load up till 4K, graph still showing the surge but you can't feel it surging as before so I'm going to leave it for now.

I'm now having problems with the AFR peaking & troughing at WOT, I thought it was just the fueling trying to keep up with the surging but it's going on after the surge has gone and it's very regular.

For the 440cc injectors & uprated fuel pump I've changed the TVUB;

V MS
7.96 2.098
10 1.321
11.97 0.919
14.01 0.67
15.98 0.47

and the KRKTE to 0.07404

Any ideas on how to rectify this would be most appreciated.

I did try the Nefmoto forum but it's not very helpful.

Full log attached.

Thanks

badger5 · Oct 22, 2019

you realise me7.5 fuel is calculated from airflow.............. thats the clue dude

IanMW · Oct 22, 2019

Yep,

The thing is that I'm a bit confused, looking at the S4 Wiki it says that at <1 stoichiometric it goes to open loop and will use only the MAF signal to guess how much fuel should be added. To adjust the AFR <1 you can use these three, lowest lambda wins;

LAMFAW: enrichment based on pedal position (requested torque from KFPED)

LAMFAWKR: enrichment based on knock recognition

LAMBTS: enrichment triggered by calculated EGTS passing a threshold

Now I have 2 logs one using the factory 386cc injectors which shows greater everything EGT's, knock control, air flow and the other log using the 440cc injectors showing lower everything (desired AFR is the same in each log) yet the 386cc log doesn't show the fuelling being nobbled.

If I can sort out this fuelling I'd be happy with it for now.

I have found that LambdaControl is kicking in, just need to find out what it exactly is, why it's kicking in and how to mitigate it.

<tuffty/> · Oct 22, 2019

S4's are narrowband ECU's iirc... you are tuning a wideband ECU? S4 wiki info may well be based off narrow band which the statement above supports...

Wideband will be closed loop at <1 afr

<tuffty/>

IanMW · Oct 22, 2019

The car is a TT BAM engine (wideband I believe)

So it looks like its closed loop and is doing as it should, until this Lambda Control enters the frame.

I've looked around and as far as I can tell the Lambda Control uses the rear post Cat sensor to monitor the exhaust gases post Cat and feeds this information back into the fuel control loop in the ECU for emissions & cat protection purposes. So the question is, is the Lambda Control causing the fuel cut off or is the Lambda control a symptom of the fuel cut off?

Looking at the 2 logs (386cc & 440cc) all the relevant readings apart from the lambda are greater on the 386cc log and the fuel wasn’t cut, so it "should" be something to do with the lower “actual” lambda (richer mixture) readings.

This leads to the question can I just turn the Lambda Control off or is there a way of turning it down?

The car is DeCat.

Or I could be barking completely up the wrong tree!

<tuffty/> · Oct 22, 2019

You need to find a new tree mate I think...

Post CAT lambda should not make any difference on overall fuelling as its primary use is to monitor CAT efficiency... pre CAT lambda is used for the lambda control of the ECU...

Not used ME7 logger personally so can't comment on your logs in context but block 001 in VCDS is what is typically used for logging lambda control and is in percent... you will see the percentage of adjustment the ECU has to make to meet target lambda...

Its been a very long time since I have done anything with tuning ME7 as tbh its just a ball ache to do when you aren't doing it on a daily basis but huge swings suggests to me that the injectors aren't dialled in right... KRKTE or TVUB are typically candidates, MAF should be untouched as you have no need to scale or play with that at all at your power level

<tuffty/>

IanMW · Oct 22, 2019

Cheers, thought that might be the case, the expanation sounded good though :friendly wink:

I think we have a winner

Time to buy the real bosch injectors, the non bosch ones are probably OK for normal driving.

Should I go for the 440cc or the 550cc?

badger5 · Oct 22, 2019

IanMW said:
The car is a TT BAM engine (wideband I believe)

So it looks like its closed loop and is doing as it should, until this Lambda Control enters the frame.

I've looked around and as far as I can tell the Lambda Control uses the rear post Cat sensor to monitor the exhaust gases post Cat and feeds this information back into the fuel control loop in the ECU for emissions & cat protection purposes. So the question is, is the Lambda Control causing the fuel cut off or is the Lambda control a symptom of the fuel cut off?

Looking at the 2 logs (386cc & 440cc) all the relevant readings apart from the lambda are greater on the 386cc log and the fuel wasn’t cut, so it "should" be something to do with the lower “actual” lambda (richer mixture) readings.

This leads to the question can I just turn the Lambda Control off or is there a way of turning it down?

The car is DeCat.

Or I could be barking completely up the wrong tree!

lambda is always controlling.. once warmed up.
why the hell would you ever want to turn it off????
think about it ***

fuel is calculated from airflow Primarily, to achieve a target lambda from lamfa.

how do you think unstable airflow from surge (your logs of g/s)
unstable
hence unstable fuel calculation, and lambda control has no chance of reacting to the gross instability

deal with surge or ditch maf, things will settle. as is surge is throwing you off kilter

badger5 · Oct 22, 2019

IanMW said:
Cheers, thought that might be the case, the expanation sounded good though

I think we have a winner

Time to buy the real bosch injectors, the non bosch ones are probably OK for normal driving.

Should I go for the 440cc or the 550cc?

if you got fakes, then woopsie on you.
it does'nt fix your surging airflow creating fuel cal errors tho does it

real bosch 550cc or 610cc are available readily inexpensively if you look

IanMW · Oct 23, 2019

I've done 2 more runs, 1 with the load (LDRXN) turned down to;

97.01 128.07 142.27 153.00 159.14 171.68 173.37 176.35 215.00 225.00 228.00 230.00 233.09 234.00 205.79 185.89

and the other turned down to factory to 4K;

97.01 128.07 140.65 147.45 146.70 140.77 138.33 140.89 143.96 225.00 228.00 230.00 233.09 234.00 205.79 185.89

Compared with a run using the 386cc factory injectors and LDRXN;

97.01 128.07 155.93 162.24 168.52 180.00 215.09 220.50 221.42 219.59 225.90 225.90 233.09 237.61 205.79 185.89

Even though the factory injector run has greater readings the fuel was not cut and even when I tamed the initial surge by using the factory loads to 4K at the higher revs the fuel is still cut using the 440cc injectors.

The injectors I bought were really cheap £20 for the 4 "cheap for a reason!" probably OK for NA engines.

So what's the consensus on the 440’s looking around they have some bad press for the 1.8T, would the 550’s be a good bet or go big with the 650’s, bearing in mind that the engine internals are standard and I don’t want to push it over the 300HP\300FTLB.

Think I’ve answered my own question, 550’s. I think the 550’s need an adapter though?

<tuffty/> · Oct 23, 2019

Bosch 550's are generally the goto injector and will need an adaptor or preferably cut the plugs and use proper ones to minimise risk as there are some dodgy adaptors about...

Just watch out for copies of those too...

<tuffty/>

IanMW · Oct 23, 2019

Going to get the injectors from the Motor Factors around the corner, where is the best place to get the tails or the adapters, I can only find them on ebay at the moment.

hydro s3 · Oct 24, 2019

Why don't you get the 610cc injectors from Badger 5 as they come with the adapters needed and then if you want more lower later on down the line you have the injectors to cope with it.

IanMW · Dec 1, 2019

All,

Fitted the 550cc injectors, same result, fuel still fluctuating on hard acceleration particularly in lower gears 1,2, & 3.

I have a P0103 - Mass Air Flow Sensor Signal too High intermittent error, would this cause the fuel to be cut?

I also fitted the boost gauge which is reading around 25 - 30 when the fuel cuts, difficult to tell exactly.

Any ideas?

Thanks

<tuffty/> · Dec 1, 2019

Signal too high error in context of tuning with a higher flowing turbo is normally down to the MAF protection map for the upper end of the signal exceeding its limits... this table (name of which escapes me) will need lifting to cope with the increased airflow you have..

Fitting 550's with out dialling in KRKTE and TVUB will cause fuelling issues and typically large swings in lambda adjustment... normally advisable to work on one area at a time when tuning... off the stock map you would want to dial in the larger injectors first... once the fuelling is dialled in then look to lifting load...

<tuffty/>

IanMW · Dec 1, 2019

Cheers,

I've adjusted the the maps for the larger injectors.
I haven't touched the MAF maps so this will need addressing.
Do you know if the MAF limits are exceeded the ECU will cut the fuel? As if this is the case I think that's the problem.

badger5 · Dec 2, 2019

maf exceeded results in limp mode normally

IanMW · Dec 2, 2019

It's not going into limp mode.

Just unplugged the MAF & tried it, still feels the same, didn't have time to take any logs.

The LAMFA is set to 0.8516 which I don't think should be a problem.

I'm stuck at the moment, :sos:

I think my injector offsets may be wrong,

I'm using;
8 10 12 14 16
2.0002 1.3495 1.0001 0.7788 0.6187

IanMW · Dec 2, 2019

I've emailed Bosch asking for the offsets at 3 BAR, lets see what I get back.

IanMW · Dec 3, 2019

I've put the factory map on with the TVUB, KRKTE and the LAMFA from the 550cc injector maps.

It's still dropping the AFR, but not as pronounced, I think its the voltage offsets.

Has anybody got the offsets for the Bosch 550cc 0280158117?

Log attached.

IanMW · Apr 30, 2020

It was the FKKVS fuel supply correction factor map.

300HP Success (to be verified on dyno)

Registered User

Attachments

MAN OF STEEL

Registered User

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...

www.badger5.co.uk

Registered User

Attachments

www.badger5.co.uk

Registered User

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...

Registered User

www.badger5.co.uk

Registered User

www.badger5.co.uk

Registered User

www.badger5.co.uk

Registered User

Registered User

Attachments

www.badger5.co.uk

Registered User

Attachments

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...

Registered User

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...

Registered User

www.badger5.co.uk

www.badger5.co.uk

Registered User

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...

Registered User

S3 amk

Registered User

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...

Registered User

www.badger5.co.uk

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Attachments

Registered User

Similar threads