Max airflow on stock setup? (S3 8P 2006)

Daveyonthemove · Jul 19, 2018

Out of interest, what is the maximum airflow you should get from a healthy stock set up on a remap (factory airbox and paper filter)?
Using the MAF to measure, I'm assuming 240-255 would be peak flow on a stage 1 map?

Also, is it a fairly accurate way of measuring BHP using the /.80 method?
Mine seems spot on running stock map (273bhp) but I don't know if it's reliable or coincidence.

ch1z64 · Jul 19, 2018

Don't know if any good to.you mate .
( http://www.goapr.co.uk/support/datalogging.php )

Daveyonthemove · Jul 19, 2018

ch1z64 said:
Don't know if any good to.you mate .
( http://www.goapr.co.uk/support/datalogging.php )

Thanks for the link.
Data logging isn't the issue I have, I've spent most of the last two days doing it.
I'm just trying to find out what point the standard system stops progress. Can a standard filter set up reach 320bhp (number as an example), or does it reach a certain level and no further until hardware is changed? Whats the max airflow or BHP it can achieve?

ch1z64 · Jul 19, 2018

Might be worth looking in the projects room

prt57 · Jul 19, 2018

With the standard air box with an ITG filter inside I reached 324 BHP and 343 ft lbs with an APR stage 1+. However,in order to help airflow as much as possible I smoothed the inside of the box as much as possible and removed some of the supporting little plastic struts inside.
The tuner thought it could have gone higher with a proper intake.

Daveyonthemove · Jul 19, 2018

Perfect, that gives me an idea of what's achievable.
Did you get those figures with a max MAF reading or on the RR? I'm keen to see how accurate the MAF method actually is.

prt57 · Jul 19, 2018

Daveyonthemove said:
Perfect, that gives me an idea of what's achievable.
Did you get those figures with a max MAF reading or on the RR? I'm keen to see how accurate the MAF method actually is.

It was on the rolling road at VRS Performance 2 years ago.

Daveyonthemove · Jul 19, 2018

Cheers.
I logged mine tonight on stock map and it got 264.6 bhp after converting, so that's as close as it can be.
I was wondering why the car will barely reach 300bhp with a map in it. If yours is breaking 300 with ease on the stock air intake, then it can't be that.

prt57 · Jul 19, 2018

My son bought an Audi approved TRS that came with a stage 1 at 300 BHP without anyone realising. However an RTech stage 1 added an extra 25 BHP and a shed load more torque.
If you do or have someone do the 5 mm drill modification to the inlet on the HPFP a custom tuner will release more BHP and torque than a standard generic stage 1.

Daveyonthemove · Jul 19, 2018

prt57 said:
My son bought an Audi approved TRS that came with a stage 1 at 300 BHP without anyone realising. However an RTech stage 1 added an extra 25 BHP and a shed load more torque.
If you do or have someone do the 5 mm drill modification to the inlet on the HPFP a custom tuner will release more BHP and torque than a standard generic stage 1.

Can you tell me more about this mod, it's certainly something I'd look at doing if it's as simple as it sounds?
Believe it or not, my map is stage 2!

prt57 · Jul 19, 2018

This is not the best link but struggled to find the original thread.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/529405700525327?view=permalink&id=1168739943258563&_rdr

Essentially the hpfp brass inlet is drilled out to 5mm. No restriction due to the original small inlet hole and can help the LPFP if it is getting tired.
Loba pumps come with this predrilled.
You need to do more research to find more info and take care you don’t lose the little aluminium washer in board of the brass fitting when you remove it to drill it out.

nluk100 · Jul 20, 2018

Daveyonthemove said:
Thanks for the link.
Data logging isn't the issue I have, I've spent most of the last two days doing it.
I'm just trying to find out what point the standard system stops progress. Can a standard filter set up reach 320bhp (number as an example), or does it reach a certain level and no further until hardware is changed? Whats the max airflow or BHP it can achieve?

My S3 ran 339ps at stage2+ on a conservative dyno with the std intake for a number of years with no issues. The only intake mods were K&N panel filter and Samco intake pipe, which was developed on my car and gave better spooling and an 11ps increase on the dyno at the top end.

Daveyonthemove · Jul 20, 2018

Looks like I'll have to do that 5mm modification, I've only just got past 290bhp on a stage one and stage 2 was the same to start with, but after several tweaks to the map it's only seeing 298bhp. It's getting silly now, I'd be happy with 300bhp on a stage 1.
This is assuming that the MAF/.80 theory stands up. Everything I've read so far suggests it's fairly accurate (no more or less than a RR).

ch1z64 · Jul 20, 2018

@Daveyonthemove , i got a walnut blast on my TFSI done and then a Stage1 custom map done and i was assured by the tuner ( sponsor on here ) i am now looking at 330bhp and i know for certain a good engine clean out added to getting this as it is more responsive in all gears and on motorway with full tank off shell V8 i am getting 380 /400 and doing 70mph on cruise control and revs 2800. So i would thought for stg2 would be a helluva lot more , now i dont have diagrams to prove just the guys word which is good enough for me .

Daveyonthemove · Jul 20, 2018

I know it should be performing better, and I am going to log fuelling, AIT and boost requested/received to email across.
I'm not in a position to walnut blast it right now, the savings are dry and I have school holidays to manage. I just know that I'm only getting mild stage one power from a stage 2 tune, and that bugs me.

As said, this is all based on the MAF/.80 measurement which nobody has commented on, so I could be way off the mark until I know for sure.

samuelh_888 · Jul 20, 2018

@Daveyonthemove - is the MAF/.80 still the same calculation for a mapped vehicle?

Or is it irrelevant as the MAF reads whether it’s mapped or not?

The 5mm mod removes a fuel restriction - surely this would need to be considered in the map to make best use of this mod. It’s std in the LOBA hpfp and a mod to an upgraded hpfp. Would it make any difference to a std fuel pump?

Is there a local rolling road you could run the car in to get an idea of it’s output? Superchips visit maybe? This may also validate the MAF/.80 calc too.

Daveyonthemove · Jul 20, 2018

I could be wrong, but I think the MAF reading is relevant on mapped cars as long as the MAF pipework is the same.
As soon as the MAF pipework is changed the readings are incorrect due to the larger volume of air that the MAF is not calibrated for.

The 5mm mod looks like a good idea, and it could easily be mapped in as I can log the fuel flow and send that across.
My plan is to try and find that part and buy one as a spare, then if it goes wrong for whatever reason I still have one available to keep the car running.
I just need to to find a part number and track one down.

I have suggested going to SC HQ to try and get to the bottom of the issue, but they are talking about charging me labour time for it, which I feel is cheeky considering the amount of time spent emailing logs and new maps back and forth.
I can't fault them for tweaking the map at least 4 times, but I can't help thinking it would have been sorted quicker if I'd gone over there.

S. · Jul 20, 2018

Here is an old thread with maf readings and bhp people got.

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/whats-your-mapped-maf-g-s-readings.238567/

I think you'll need the whole pump as it's not sold in parts.
Is your dv leaking maybe? Was it very hot when loging? Carbon build up?

0.8 method is close for oem intake diameter but with larger ones it doesn't work (something like 0.72-0.74 is closer).

samuelh_888 · Jul 20, 2018

I admire your tenacity Dave. To be honest, as soon as you start spending money you should consider a trip to R-Tech. In saying that, I do like reading your r&d.

Daveyonthemove · Jul 21, 2018

DV was replaced last month for the revised version, so it should be ok but it won't hurt to check again.
Logs all run over last few days, ambient temp approx 24c and IAT approx 45c.
I might try and find a hpfp from a scrapyard and get the bit I need, it's unlikely to be damaged or faulty.

I do tend to get my teeth stuck into things until I'm satisfied that I've done all I can to find the problem and fix it.
I may need to get all the hoses checked in case of a leak, I can't rule that out just yet.

Daveyonthemove · Jul 21, 2018

S. said:
Here is an old thread with maf readings and bhp people got.

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/whats-your-mapped-maf-g-s-readings.238567/

I think you'll need the whole pump as it's not sold in parts.
Is your dv leaking maybe? Was it very hot when loging? Carbon build up?

0.8 method is close for oem intake diameter but with larger ones it doesn't work (something like 0.72-0.74 is closer).

Thanks for the link, it seems that in most cases it's fairly accurate with stock airbox, which is what mine is.
Handy to know.

Daveyonthemove · Jul 21, 2018

Having a quick look back at my logs today, I can see that:

Peak fuel pressure was 116(bar?) at 6080 rpm and fluctuates up the rev range.
Peak airflow was 238.9g/s at 6840 rpm
Peak boost (specified) was 2460 from 3720 rpm up to 4440 rpm and then slowly dropped to 2160 at 6480 rpm
Peak boost (requested) was 2600 at 3560 rpm, and slowly dropped to 2040 at 6840 rpm

paddy · Jul 21, 2018

I think the point here which has been made many times before is peak figures don't mean much, its how the car drives and if you are happy.
I looked at loads of dyno graphs before i went stg2+ and they all deliver power in a different way, all the maps working with the same set up will simply interpret what the map supplier thinks people want although some will just go for peak figures because they think thats what sells a map. Have a look at your chart, has it got a steady curve, has it peaked and fizzled out by 5k ? have you got grunt down the bottom and nothing up the top ? does it show a 10bhp blip at the 7k mark giving you great figures but not where you will use them ? Everyone thinks their map is the best but TBH what one person thinks is the best another will hate on the road.
My personal opinion and i have done dozens of dyno runs with bike engines over the years is...they are great as a comparator if you use the same one each time. They show improvements that small adjustments can make and they can point to problems. Bottom line is i would rather have an engine that produced 300bhp smoothly through the rev range than an engine that was flat down the bottom but goes to 350bhp between 6k and 7k on the road.

Daveyonthemove · Jul 22, 2018

paddy said:
I think the point here which has been made many times before is peak figures don't mean much, its how the car drives and if you are happy.
I looked at loads of dyno graphs before i went stg2+ and they all deliver power in a different way, all the maps working with the same set up will simply interpret what the map supplier thinks people want although some will just go for peak figures because they think thats what sells a map. Have a look at your chart, has it got a steady curve, has it peaked and fizzled out by 5k ? have you got grunt down the bottom and nothing up the top ? does it show a 10bhp blip at the 7k mark giving you great figures but not where you will use them ? Everyone thinks their map is the best but TBH what one person thinks is the best another will hate on the road.
My personal opinion and i have done dozens of dyno runs with bike engines over the years is...they are great as a comparator if you use the same one each time. They show improvements that small adjustments can make and they can point to problems. Bottom line is i would rather have an engine that produced 300bhp smoothly through the rev range than an engine that was flat down the bottom but goes to 350bhp between 6k and 7k on the road.

Funny you should post this, yesterday i was out all morning meeting up with a mate who has a brand new Mustang (2.3 Ecoboost) which is the last of the 2017 model meaning it has 313 bhp.
On the drive over to meet him the car was lovely and smooth, but when it was time to overtake it had the mid range punch I needed.
Also, when we left the location together and got onto a dual carriageway, the power to weight ratio and my mid range boost meant that I reeled him in very easily, and it made me realise that it drives really well, and while I wasn't thinking about peak figures I enjoyed it more.
With that in mind, I'm going to settle with it how it is. Yes I would have loved to have seen the quoted figures, but if I couldn't measure the MAF for myself I wouldn't be any wiser, so that speaks volumes.

audis3UK · Mar 17, 2019

Davey have you measured your 0-60 time on a flat road and compared this to stock? Perhaps it would tell you if the power you are making stock is close to normal?

audis3UK · Mar 17, 2019

prt57 said:
With the standard air box with an ITG filter inside I reached 324 BHP and 343 ft lbs with an APR stage 1+. However,in order to help airflow as much as possible I smoothed the inside of the box as much as possible and removed some of the supporting little plastic struts inside.
The tuner thought it could have gone higher with a proper intake.

Prt can you show us some pictures of your smoothed our air box?

prt57 · Mar 17, 2019

audis3UK said:
Prt can you show us some pictures of your smoothed our air box?

Not easily I am sorry. Essentially, if you open it up you will see bits of plastic sticking up from the moulding process. I cut these off and sanded the inside to get the insideas smooth as possible. I also made a judgement that I did not need all of the internal supporting struts in the way of the airflow and removed some of them making sure that no stumps were left sticking up.
I then realised that the elbow from the airbox to the turbo was a major restriction and so tried to replace it with a hose made by Samco. The theory seemed good but in practise it was a poor fit. Eventually, I ditched the whole lot and I now have a Revo but with a green cotton air filter instead of the foam.

Daveyonthemove · Mar 17, 2019

audis3UK said:
Davey have you measured your 0-60 time on a flat road and compared this to stock? Perhaps it would tell you if the power you are making stock is close to normal?

No, 0-60 times don't matter to me to be honest. I rarely pull away quickly unless there is a gap in the traffic that I need to get through at a junction.
Having replaced a clutch and flywheel last summer, I'm very sympathetic on the clutch and prefer overtaking power, it's where I use it most.

audis3UK · Mar 17, 2019

Daveyonthemove said:
No, 0-60 times don't matter to me to be honest. I rarely pull away quickly unless there is a gap in the traffic that I need to get through at a junction.
Having replaced a clutch and flywheel last summer, I'm very sympathetic on the clutch and prefer overtaking power, it's where I use it most.

Ok I just thought it would be a good gauge to see everything is running right. 5.5 0-100 is normal so if you get that it would suggest things are right

paddy · Mar 17, 2019

0-100 in 5.5 Hope we are talking catholic here and not C of E

Daveyonthemove · Mar 17, 2019

I'd like to think this is KPH or there is a big issue with my car

audis3UK · Mar 17, 2019

0-100kph, well assumed Davey!

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