My s3 is dead

Driver or mechanical error?

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You have your theory, I came here for some help and understanding, you have the facts you know exactly what has happened, only a couple of people have kind of made sense of the situation however nothing explains how it's all happened, I don't think anything will either
 
Stephenhirst said:
Such as?
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Because he made a mistake and knackered your new car!

Afraid it's the only explanation that fits all the evidence presented as far as I can see.
 
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Stephenhirst said:
You have your theory, I came here for some help and understanding, you have the facts you know exactly what has happened, only a couple of people have kind of made sense of the situation however nothing explains how it's all happened, I don't think anything will either
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I'm genuinely trying to help, must be a horrible situation to be in.

I just can't see any other theory

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
There are no facts apart from an ECU record , blown engine and a person making a gear change.....all the rest is hearsay.
 
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Stephenhirst said:
Such as?
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Such as owning up 'if' he made a mistake and sorting it out...

You say you wanted some advice on the probable cause, I guess hoping everyone would suggest some major component failure that you could go to Audi with. But sadly the only real evidence points to a mistake.
 
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It really does suck, but I know my brother would tell me if he'd selected the wrong gear so I'd not have spent the last 5 months fighting a losing battle and I'd have just paid for it myself
 
So you are saying that if your brother came clean and admitted it, YOU'D pay for it out of YOUR pocket?

Something still doesn't add up in your two threads.
 
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Flying Scotsman said:
There are no facts apart from an ECU record , blown engine and a person making a gear change.....all the rest is hearsay.
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Agreed, but looking at the data Audi has sent the OP, it really doesn't reconcile. There's a very broken engine, that much is sure, but if Audi are using this data without reference to things like the ECU using last known good values, the owner cannot be assured that his engjne hasn't gone bang with no porovacation. Either there was a mis-shift from 3rd to 2nd and the speed data is wrong, or there was a misshift from 2nd to 1st and the gear data is wrong, or there was a normal gear change at 51mph and 5600 rpm and rpm data is wrong.

I know that the gear data may be wrong due to the last known value problem, but if that's the case, why tell it to the OP?

On the face of it we have four pieces of info, three data points and one drivers statement. Only one listed scenario so far allows for only one of these pieces to be wrong, and it's not the misshifts.

I agree that the most likely cause is a mistaken gearshift, but it's by no means assured, and if audi were presenting me with a warranty denial and a four figure repair bill, they'd need to be a hell of a lot more convincing than this.
 
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Stephenhirst said:
It really does suck, but I know my brother would tell me if he'd selected the wrong gear so I'd not have spent the last 5 months fighting a losing battle and I'd have just paid for it myself
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Sorry to hear about your situation, it sucks!

Have to say though after reading all this, and your previous thread, like most of the others in here I would be looking for some more truths from your brother.

Absolutely sounds like he was looking for 3rd but found 1st. Releasing the clutch probably shat himself at the revs and depressed it again as quick as possible, which is why the last recorded gear was 2nd (as others have said the new gear isn't registered until clutch fully released).

Might be wrong, and certainly hoping for you we are! Good luck getting it all sorted
 
GSB said:
Agreed, but looking at the data Audi has sent the OP, it really doesn't reconcile. There's a very broken engine, that much is sure, but if Audi are using this data without reference to things like the ECU using last known good values, the owner cannot be assured that his engjne hasn't gone bang with no porovacation. Either there was a mis-shift from 3rd to 2nd and the speed data is wrong, or there was a misshift from 2nd to 1st and the gear data is wrong, or there was a normal gear change at 51mph and 5600 rpm and rpm data is wrong.

I know that the gear data may be wrong due to the last known value problem, but if that's the case, why tell it to the OP?

On the face of it we have four pieces of info, three data points and one drivers statement. Only one listed scenario so far allows for only one of these pieces to be wrong, and it's not the misshifts.

I agree that the most likely cause is a mistaken gearshift, but it's by no means assured, and if audi were presenting me with a warranty denial and a four figure repair bill, they'd need to be a hell of a lot more convincing than this.
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Yeah - I'd still be chasing this with Audi and asking for an explanation as to why the ECU data doesn't make sense, but the answer will be that the logged gear is last known 'good' value i bet.

Assuming 1 bit of info is wrong - if the speed is wrong, then the engine is still over-revved, just in 2nd at a higher speed this time. If the RPM is wrong, the the engine disintegrated of its own accord which doesn't seem particularly likely, so the likely explanation is that the gear data is wrong (or just the last known best value), which fits with everything else.
 
Agree with GSB on above post, but the issue is a brother who had the car on loan and the car went boom for an event reason he states....was that actually the case? We are human and as such are prone to cover our tracks, especially when it come to admitting fault and even more so if it might cost us money, friendship and trust.
I feel for the OP but I think he has to question his brother's side of what happened to his car, as he is the only one that knows. Did the OP have any issues with selecting gears prior to his brother borrowing the car?
What has transpired here is why I dislike borrowing or lending a car and an issue happens whilst in your or their care.
Also, please show the Audi written document showing their findings as to engine failure.
 
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Ideally for Audi to use the data against you it has to be correct. Something is amiss as the three parameters do not all fit together. The speed, the engine rpm and the gear.
I would suggest that that should be enough to prove the data is incorrect and cannot be relied upon.
Irrespective of what your brother did or didn't do I would suggest you first threaten Audi with a court case and second if that doesn't work go see a good solicitor.
 
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Any way you can post a pic or document here with the findings Audi are claiming? I would assume you have this correct? At least someone can have a peek at it and see it it all matches up.
 
Stephenhirst said:
Such as?
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Such as it costing him £8,000 for the repair bill.

Driving my brother's car, 'oh no I've picked the wrong gear and the engine exploded', 'this is going to be expensive', 'I know I'll tell him it just died and I've no idea why'.....! :whistle2:
 
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paradigital said:
So you are saying that if your brother came clean and admitted it, YOU'D pay for it out of YOUR pocket?

Something still doesn't add up in your two threads.
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It doesn't matter who out of me or my brother would pay, you're taking the little things too litterally, my point I'm making is if audi are straight up and honest and say it is 100% driver error, you ****** up, you pay to fixed it and if they prove that then fine it'll be paid for, but the fact they can't determine what is at fault I am fighting my case and hoping the warranty pay up, I don't believe my brother is at fault, you can assume all you like, you can hate on my brother as much as you want but no one really knows what happened except him and he would not put me in a situation like this for the last 5 months with no car if he knew he ****** up, even after so long his story has not changed therefore I trust and believe him
 
Really not a great deal in that video at all. I'd like to see their Root Cause Problem Analysis to know more.
 
When you depart from normal operating limits it can be very difficult to make sense of the data. Engine speed is normally calculated by measuring the time interval between detecting adjacent crank teeth, so it's a pretty dependable measurement. It's possible that the variable used for RPM can't represent anything >8133 (I don't know, would need to see the system spec), but if anything that would mean that the actual engine speed was higher.

Depending on the sequence of events and what the powertrain ECU was doing when the mechanical failure occurred (it could have been working on a crank-related task, another interrupt driven task or a time scheduled event), the freeze frame may contain implausible data. In those last milliseconds it's difficult to predict just what the ECU was doing at the time, what signals it saw, what it calculated and how it reacted to the inputs.

My gut feeling is that it seems to point to an engine overspeed condition caused by vehicle speed and the application of an inappropriate gear ratio, but we simply don't have all the data to perform a RCA or come to a reasoned conclusion.
 
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This thread is like an M night shyamalan movie.

I expect it'll end with the car becoming sentient and repairing itself.
 
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vacant said:
This thread is like an M night shyamalan movie.

I expect it'll end with the car becoming sentient and repairing itself.
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As long as it doesn't say "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that" !
 
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vacant said:
This thread is like an M night shyamalan movie.

I expect it'll end with the car becoming sentient and repairing itself.
Click to expand...

It's more like the last Star Wars movie (Force Awakens). Just when it got interesting everyone ******** off for an extended vacation...
 
Has the stealer given you a breakdown of the parts required with labour to sort this or are they saying it's a new engine for £8k?

I'd be inclined to get it rebuilt and whilst there do the bottom end as well for a big power conversion.

Pity you're not up in Scotland, a mate of mine could rebuild that engine saving you ££££'s
 
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I have been told that the cost of repairs come to £3942.36 including labour, then i have the cost of the engine strip down which is £1530, i could get an engine for £2250 but then i have to pay to fit it and it may end up costing more, this is why im fighting my case with audi and hoping the warranty will pay.
 
That's why they call them stealers.

If I was you I'd cut my losses and get the replacement engine and find a reputable outfit to fit it.

I can't see Audi playing ball on this one. If the car was S-Tronic then you may have better luck
 
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davc said:
That's why they call them stealers.

If I was you I'd cut my losses and get the replacement engine and find a reputable outfit to fit it.

I can't see Audi playing ball on this one. If the car was S-Tronic then you may have better luck
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I agree @davc , if there was no possibility of human error there would be a good case for a system failure, but the data (albeit with a degree of uncertainty) point to driven engine overspeed. The best that I think @Stephenhirst can expect would be a contribution from Audi but I think that's optimistic.
 
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I'm surprised this much damage has been done by an over Rev.

I've done it before in a 1.3 cdti Corsa taking the revs to well over 6000rpm - that's car is still running thousands of miles later.

This video shows that they can take more than one over Rev...

 
Are you going to let your brother drive it again when it's fixed?
 
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CraigI said:
Are you going to let your brother drive it again when it's fixed?
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as my brother done nothing wrong, yes.. and he will get to drive all my future cars too, see as he is just another person to you lot, you are all quick to blame but you're not looking at the facts of what my brother done at the time, yes im taking his word for it but thats the trust i have in him, yes it looks like it could have been driver error but there are facts in there that also point to something else that could have gone wrong
 
It's worth bearing in mind @Stephenhirst that what a driver thinks they have done in the event of an out of the ordinary event can be very different to what they actually did. That's not deliberate, but a function of the human brain. I've personally watched car simulator tests on expert drivers to see their reactions when an undemanded engine acceleration event was simulated. A significant number swore blind they were pressing the brake when video and telemetry evidence showed they were pressing the accelerator.

You're right, we don't know your brother, but he could genuinely be recollecting the events differently to how they actually occurred. All I'd suggest is that you keep an open mind.
 
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I think the speculation and theorising on this has probably run its course. Next steps really revolve getting it fixed asap, since a broken Audi S3 sitting in a workshop for the best part of half a year is a considerable overhead for an asset of such limited value.

Whatever the cause of the failure, there is a great deal of ambiguity in the data, and no real content of value to show how Audi have determined the cause of the failure and determined that it's not a warranty claim. It appears that they've seen the overspeed code, and based their decision on that alone. The only real investigative work has been carried out by Audi out at the OP's own expense, and it still doesn't establish what happened or why, only that the engine is broken.

I'd say that the communication and information flow from Audi has been less than stellar, and I really don't think they have adequately demonstrated to the OP what has gone on in his engine. Yet they fully expect him to stump up a four figure sum based only on their word.

In this case there is no downside to asking Audi Customer Services to take another look. The worst they can say is no, in which case the OP is no worse off. Audi of course will lose a customer for life, something they may take into consideration when replying.

Please keep us updated on your progress @Stephenhirst . Despite the lack of consensus here I'm sure all of us on the Audi-Sport forums will be interested to know just how Audi is likely to treat us should a similar ambiguous failure strike down our cars.
 
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ill be sure to keep you all up to date, but @GSB you pretty much nailed it there
 
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Best you can do is get an independent engineer's report, get them to look at the data and evidence and state that they think there was a design fault/issue. Present that to Audi and insist on a warranty claim.
 
Jimbbobw1977 said:
I'm surprised this much damage has been done by an over Rev.

I've done it before in a 1.3 cdti Corsa taking the revs to well over 6000rpm - that's car is still running thousands of miles later.

This video shows that they can take more than one over Rev...

Click to expand...

What a bellend.
 
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Audi were unable to prove who or what went wrong but due to the initial fault findings i had to pay for repairs no matter what they found, unless someone like the ombudsman said otherwise, however because Audi couldn't determine exactly who or what was at fault, the ombudsman couldn't help. Audi contributed almost 50% of the repairs, to me they have accepted some liability there. i would just like to advise you all on Audi's terrible customer service, communication and professionalism. i no longer own the s3 and probably wouldn't own another Audi for a long time due to how they treated me and my family though this, which is a shame because the s3 is an incredible machine
 
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Stephenhirst said:
Audi were unable to prove who or what went wrong but due to the initial fault findings i had to pay for repairs no matter what they found, unless someone like the ombudsman said otherwise, however because Audi couldn't determine exactly who or what was at fault, the ombudsman couldn't help. Audi contributed almost 50% of the repairs, to me they have accepted some liability there. i would just like to advise you all on Audi's terrible customer service, communication and professionalism. i no longer own the s3 and probably wouldn't own another Audi for a long time due to how they treated me and my family though this, which is a shame because the s3 is an incredible machine
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This is so sad, at least this has come to an end now for you, thanks for the update.

So you had the car repaired and then moved on?
 
I suspect that we won't be seeing StephenHirst here any more, since he's binned the S3 and bought a 330 M-Sport instead.

To update on his behalf though, Stephen got in touch with me and we discussed the issue and circumstances for a brief period. I then drafted a letter for him to send to Audi UK challenging the lack of any proper root cause analysis and asking for clarification on how they can refuse a claim based upon ECU data points that lack credibility.

Audi replied to Stephen 4 days later. While they didn't offer any explanations on why or how the data points can be recorded, they did offer to pick up almost half of the £5.5k bill for the repair, an offer he accepted.

Just goes to show, you should never-ever take the dealers word for it, and even when all appears lost, it never-ever hurts to ask.
 
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GSB said:
I suspect that we won't be seeing StephenHirst here any more, since he's binned the S3 and bought a 330 M-Sport instead.

To update on his behalf though, Stephen got in touch with me and we discussed the issue and circumstances for a brief period. I then drafted a letter for him to send to Audi UK challenging the lack of any proper root cause analysis and asking for clarification on how they can refuse a claim based upon ECU data points that lack credibility.

Audi replied to Stephen 4 days later. While they didn't offer any explanations on why or how the data points can be recorded, they did offer to pick up almost half of the £5.5k bill for the repair, an offer he accepted.

Just goes to show, you should never-ever take the dealers word for it, and even when all appears lost, it never-ever hurts to ask.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for the update.
 
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